BF2S Forums Universal health care for the U.S.

Socialized medicine is the way to go.  I, for one, could do away with the nightmare that is handling a PPO or HMO insurance plan, and after working in and around hospitals for so long, it's really frustrating to see people not get what they need medically since their insurance company won't deal with it, or watching insurance companies skimp out on the cheapest of services.  I feel that healthcare should be a right, not a business.

(T)eflon(S)hadow wrote:

We are a strong economic force in the world. What are you saying about American companies'  not making as much profit as a Japanese company? I hope in my great, great , great, great ..... grand children never live in a socialists society like France, etc.

Get a Job, save money, pay bills , and buy what you want, The American way, including health insurance.

Yeah cause look at all those goods that we export, and all the fords, chevy's that are driven and loved around the world?? Having a universal health care plan put into place benefits everyone, and don't you think that our taxes should go into benefiting everyone who pays them? We'd do away with the majority of frivolous lawsuits, everyone would be covered. It's really just the way to go, I'd rather pay taxes to something that will benefit me and my family then pay them to benifit Iraq. And to answer your question, no American companies do not make as much per product as Japanese companies. Did you read the top?

Erkut.hv please expand on socialized medicine sucks balls? Canadian's elite come here? some proof please.

Last edited by cpt.fass1 (2006-05-17 09:44:42)

Rygar so you still have to pay for medical treatment.

Rygar wrote:

They go because they can afford private coverage

That's what I was saying. If they can afford, they'd rather come her to avoid long lines and get better care. Perhaps elite was a poor choice of word(s).

Erkut.hv wrote:

Rygar wrote:

They go because they can afford private coverage

That's what I was saying. If they can afford, they'd rather come her to avoid long lines and get better care. Perhaps elite was a poor choice of word(s).

Ah, ok, understood and you have a point.

There isn't private health care here (yet).  It is a political hot debate as the rich want it and the 'not as rich' don't (I think).
The only real private coverage here is whatever insurance plans your employer provides (which you pay into, naturally), and you can get private health INSURANCE, but that just means you don't pay for drugs and the services which you normally would (mind you it's an insurance company, so there's a myriad of loopholes and conditions on...I'm betting...any insurance policy in the country).
You're still waiting in line based on severity of the problem.

cpt.fass1 wrote:

And there really is nothing wrong with waiting on line. Here in the past few years the quality of health care has gone downhill and the price has gone up.

Agreed.  If the problems are correctly dealt with (although the bigger the city the more complicated this becomes) the wait isn't the end of the world.
One of the problems around here is that sooooo many people run to the hospital for EVERYTHING that bothers them, which is another matter I suppose...

Here is the (possible) flaw with your argument.  In order to implement universal health care in the US, taxes would have to be increased (probably a great deal).  So, instead of making $10,000 - taxes - pay - insurance they would make $10,000 - higher taxes - pay.  The question (at least for this particular argument) is whether taxes + insurance > higher taxes.

What is with this socialism crap?  Yesterday it was the "cap the income at 2million" and now it's standardized healthcare.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I live in the United States ... if you want socialism, go elsewhere! 

I want the ability to make as much as I want and not have to pay for someone else's lazy-ass'in.  Abolish social security!  Abolish medicare!  Abolish welfare!  These are socialist programs that have no business in a capitalist country. 

We need LESS government, NOT MORE!!!  The problems in this country are due to the government wielding too much power!

EDIT:  To the person that neg'ed me ... yes, of course the programs need fixing ... if you read my post, you'd see the "fixing" they need is to be abolished!  The United States wasn't a socialist country at its inception, and it galls me to see it go this way now!

Last edited by remo (2006-05-17 11:13:12)

if we got rid of all the Illegal Mexicans than health insurance would go down, If we secured the borders and kept out drugs then health insurance would go down, if our government would stop filling the role of family and church then health insurance would go down, and if cigarettes were outlawed we would have cheaper health insurance.

remo wrote:

McCarthy ... yes, he was a little nuts.  BUT this country's leaders needed to be slapped upside the head then ... and I think its in order again.

Illegal immigrants?  Don't get me started.  They don't have anything to do with health insurance though ... don't hijack.

Of course they do, People who use the system but not pay for the service drive up costs.  The biggest group that use hospitals and don't pay are criminals like Illegals, gangsters, druggies, and the people who can't afford health insurance because of the afore mentioned people running up costs.

not to say that poor people are criminals, but they do smell like sour milk.

I bet if Illegals and other criminals were just going into car dealerships and getting cars without paying for them, which in turn raised the cost of cars 75%, then people would be more upset and would want something done about it.  But I guess nobody has a problem with the same thing happening with health care.

remo wrote:

What is with this socialism crap?  Yesterday it was the "cap the income at 2million" and now it's standardized healthcare.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I live in the United States ... if you want socialism, go elsewhere! 

I want the ability to make as much as I want and not have to pay for someone else's lazy-ass'in.  Abolish social security!  Abolish medicare!  Abolish welfare!  These are socialist programs that have no business in a capitalist country. 

We need LESS government, NOT MORE!!!  The problems in this country are due to the government wielding too much power!

Have to say that I agree with this post.

some excerpts for capt.fass1

It is not FREE. What it is is an income redistribution scheme.

'The first thing to realize is that free public medicine isn't really free. What the consumer doesn't pay, the taxpayer does, and with a vengeance. Public health expenditures in Quebec amount to 29 per cent of the provincial government budget. One-fifth of the revenues come from a wage tax of 3.22 per cent charged to employers and the rest comes from general taxes at the provincial and federal levels. It costs $1,200 per year in taxes for each Quebec citizen to have access to the public health system. This means that the average two-child family pays close to $5,000 per year in public health insurance. This is much more expensive than the most comprehensive private health insurance plan.'

It becomes a monopoly-state run. Have you ever stood in line at the Social Security office, the DMV, Financial Aid center at public universities, or whatever governmental agency?

'Aside from the problems inherent in all monopolies, the fact that health services are free leads to familiar economic consequences. Basic economics tells us that if a commodity is offered at zero price, demand will increase, supply will drop, and a shortage will develop.'

Disincentive for health care providers. Like yesterday's topic on income caps, this proposal will have the same effect on the health care industry.

'Since labor is the main component of health costs, incomes of health workers and professionals have been brought under tight government controls. In Quebec, professional fees and target incomes are negotiated between doctors' associations and the Department of Health and Social Services. Although in theory most doctors still are independent professionals, the government has put a ceiling on certain categories of income: for instance, any fees earned by a general practitioner in excess of $164,108 (Canadian) a year are reimbursed at a rate of only 25 per cent.

Not surprisingly, income controls have had a negative impact on work incentives. From 1972 to 1987, for instance, general practitioners reduced by 11 per cent the average time they spent with their patients. In 1977, the first year of the income ceiling, they reduced their average work year by two-and-a-half weeks.'

There are more, but I am at work and don't have time to fully paraphrase the article.

Marconius
Have you ever read Hegel? In college, some of my professors sais that he was the precursor to Marx, but what I read left me with quite a different impression. To paraphrase one of his tenets, 'man work in his own selfish best interests, but the system requires to serve the needs of others in order to fulfil this selfish desire leading to the benefit of society has a whole'.  To me, this is the heart of the capitalistic system that I staunchly defend.

To sum up, if you find yourself in the position where you cannot afford private healthcare, there are avenues that you can take that are available to improve your situation. Go back to school and earn a degree in a field that is demand. There are a plethora of programs that are already in place that encourage this. Or go back and earn a Masters or PhD (again in a field that is in demand) and see where your income goes.

(Back to work)