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2011-05-17 18:00:01
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6644
see to me from my liberal left-leaning and rather passive european perspective... i'd notch this up as another argument under the branch of 'legalising guns is fucking stupid'. it just escalates the stakes for petty, small-time busts like this. how often do you think the english police go into a suspected drug-property w/ a warrant armed to the teeth and trigger  happy? hint: barely ever. in america, though, where everyone (especially criminals) are likely to have a gun and be prepared to use it, furthermore... it means even a small bust for a minor (i.e. non capital) crime can easily turn into a siege shootout or something nasty. i just don't see the need. protecting your home and property? yeah, sure. get a burglar alarm instead of an AR-15.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-05-17 18:01:09
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5532|London, England

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:


Ya really feel your life is in danger? Really? While you are at it, you might wanna quit driving to rule out any possibility of you getting killed in a car accident. There are a hellova lot more CRIMINALS shot by cops...I have no problem with it.
Of course you don't. You don't believe in the justice system. You believe in the vigilante system. I bet you like to think that you'd enjoy pulling the trigger if given the job of rounding up a posse and chasing after a criminal.

There's a reason that posses and vigilante justice is a myth and not reality. Sorry lowing.
Oh I believe in the justice system as it is supposed to be, and it is not supposed to be where the criminal outguns the law. I do not believe in vigilante justice. I do believe in the right to defend yourself with deadly force. Been down this road before Jay, I own guns yes, I like to go shooting yes. I have no desire to kill anyone, not even in self defense. I do have a desire to ensure the protection of my family and my possessions.

In one thread the argument is, it is the cops job to protect us, not our own, and in this thread you don't even want the cops to have the ability to effectively protect themselves, let alone us. What is it you expect from s police force exactly?
I expect violence to be the absolute last resort. I expect cops to announce themselves before busting down a door. I expect them to be wearing uniforms as they enter. I expect them to show restraint.

I want SWAT teams abolished. Every podunk municipality seems to have one now and they all have to justify their budget in some way. So, instead of sending a patrol car to serve a warrant, they instead load up the van, send in the gung ho motherfuckers with automatic weapons to serve the warrant and then say 'oops' when it goes wrong. How hard is it to announce POLICE!? If that's not enough, toss a flash bang in. Use rubber bullets. Tazers. Do you know how fucking easy it is to take someone down with non-lethal force? Ridiculous.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-05-17 18:01:10
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6754|the dank(super) side of Oregon

lowing wrote:

Also, I will play the odds that my family will not have to worry about a SWAT team beating down my doors searching for drugs.
I'm not worried about swat teams busting down my door for drugs either.  But that doesn't mean they aren't fucking idiots. It happens often.

Oops.
2011-05-17 18:01:54
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5433|foggy bottom
this one time I came to my house 4 hours after I tried earlier because the police cordoned the block.  Im sitting at my computer and the next second I see about half a dozen flashlights shining in my back yard.  First thing I wanna do is grab my weapon but as soon as I saw the lights there was knocking on my front and back door.  turns out some dude robbed the corner store and my drive way and back yard was the route of escape the search dog traced it through.  they were looking for a gun.

this story makes me think about what would have happened if I went charles "lowing" bronson on them if I had followed my immediate instinct.
Tu Stultus Es
2011-05-17 18:02:43
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6825|USA

burnzz wrote:

Jay wrote:

burnzz wrote:


it would be different, Uzique, if the dead man from the OP was indeed a drug dealer or whatnot - the story cited is a man that served his country, came back alive to house and protect his family, only to die from the wanton ineptitude of a paramilitary police unit.
It wouldn't matter if the guy was a drug dealer. Since when is dealing drugs a capital offense? I don't care if he's a car thief, or a bank robber, or whatever else; it's not the cops job to pass a death sentence.
you're right, drug dealing is not a capital offense.

when is protecting your home legal?

The Guereña maintains that SWAT members did not identify themselves before breaking down the door, and Jose Guereña had his rifle drawn because he was protecting his family from what he thought was a home invasion.  His wife said he had a clean criminal record, and that she still doesn't know why SWAT members were serving a search warrant at the house.
who here, on this forum, can say that they do not have the right to arm and protect themselves from a perceived home invasion?
The guy is dead, how does the writer of the article know what the guy "thought"? The article also said they confiscated large sums of money. Where there is smoke there is fire but I am willing to wait until all the information is on the table before I condemn anyone, how about you guys?
2011-05-17 18:03:53
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6754|the dank(super) side of Oregon

Uzique wrote:

see to me from my liberal left-leaning and rather passive european perspective... i'd notch this up as another argument under the branch of 'legalising guns is fucking stupid'. it just escalates the stakes for petty, small-time busts like this. how often do you think the english police go into a suspected drug-property w/ a warrant armed to the teeth and trigger  happy? hint: barely ever. in america, though, where everyone (especially criminals) are likely to have a gun and be prepared to use it, furthermore... it means even a small bust for a minor (i.e. non capital) crime can easily turn into a siege shootout or something nasty. i just don't see the need. protecting your home and property? yeah, sure. get a burglar alarm instead of an AR-15.
and in 200 years when all the guns are finally off the streets I'm sure cops could breathe a sigh of relief.
2011-05-17 18:04:00
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5532|London, England

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

burnzz wrote:


it would be different, Uzique, if the dead man from the OP was indeed a drug dealer or whatnot - the story cited is a man that served his country, came back alive to house and protect his family, only to die from the wanton ineptitude of a paramilitary police unit.
It wouldn't matter if the guy was a drug dealer. Since when is dealing drugs a capital offense? I don't care if he's a car thief, or a bank robber, or whatever else; it's not the cops job to pass a death sentence.
Mehhhhh, good riddance if he was a drug dealer or car thief pointing a rifle at the cops.
So you believe that everyone that commits a crime deserves to be strung up in the nearest tree. Interesting. I bet you never speed.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-05-17 18:04:46
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6644
i'm diagnosing what i see as the problem not offering a realistic prognosis. of course the way it is now is the inevitable result of a long history of gun-laws and arms rights. whether or not it's right or wrong is totally irrelevant, now, when it's all pretty much irreversible. stuff like this is just going to happen.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-05-17 18:05:13
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5532|London, England

Reciprocity wrote:

Oops.
Damn your liberal scumbag link, damn it..


Oh wait...
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-05-17 18:06:17
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5532|London, England

lowing wrote:

burnzz wrote:

Jay wrote:


It wouldn't matter if the guy was a drug dealer. Since when is dealing drugs a capital offense? I don't care if he's a car thief, or a bank robber, or whatever else; it's not the cops job to pass a death sentence.
you're right, drug dealing is not a capital offense.

when is protecting your home legal?

The Guereña maintains that SWAT members did not identify themselves before breaking down the door, and Jose Guereña had his rifle drawn because he was protecting his family from what he thought was a home invasion.  His wife said he had a clean criminal record, and that she still doesn't know why SWAT members were serving a search warrant at the house.
who here, on this forum, can say that they do not have the right to arm and protect themselves from a perceived home invasion?
The guy is dead, how does the writer of the article know what the guy "thought"? The article also said they confiscated large sums of money. Where there is smoke there is fire but I am willing to wait until all the information is on the table before I condemn anyone, how about you guys?
FROM A DIFFERENT HOUSE.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-05-17 18:07:31
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6825|USA

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:


It wouldn't matter if the guy was a drug dealer. Since when is dealing drugs a capital offense? I don't care if he's a car thief, or a bank robber, or whatever else; it's not the cops job to pass a death sentence.
Mehhhhh, good riddance if he was a drug dealer or car thief pointing a rifle at the cops.
So you believe that everyone that commits a crime deserves to be strung up in the nearest tree. Interesting. I bet you never speed.
Depends if they are guilty or not, and also the crime.
2011-05-17 18:08:40
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6823

eleven bravo wrote:

this one time I came to my house 4 hours after I tried earlier because the police cordoned the block.  Im sitting at my computer and the next second I see about half a dozen flashlights shining in my back yard.  First thing I wanna do is grab my weapon but as soon as I saw the lights there was knocking on my front and back door.  turns out some dude robbed the corner store and my drive way and back yard was the route of escape the search dog traced it through.  they were looking for a gun.

this story makes me think about what would have happened if I went charles "lowing" bronson on them if I had followed my immediate instinct.
It's pretty scary when you think how easily it could have happened in that case.
2011-05-17 18:10:11
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6644

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:


Mehhhhh, good riddance if he was a drug dealer or car thief pointing a rifle at the cops.
So you believe that everyone that commits a crime deserves to be strung up in the nearest tree. Interesting. I bet you never speed.
Depends if they are guilty or not, and also the crime.
not "and also the crime"... it depends what the crime was FIRST AND FOREMOST. if you're guilty of jaywalking the specific crime in question is not an additional afterthought - the punishment should fit the crime. even being a scumbag drug dealer doesn't 'deserve' a death penality. that is not 'justice'. justice seeks to redress the balance and to restore peace, not to further violence and advocate state brutality.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-05-17 18:11:10
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6754|the dank(super) side of Oregon

eleven bravo wrote:

this story makes me think about what would have happened if I went charles "lowing" bronson on them
got down on your knees and sucked some police dick?
2011-05-17 18:13:45
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6825|USA

Uzique wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:


So you believe that everyone that commits a crime deserves to be strung up in the nearest tree. Interesting. I bet you never speed.
Depends if they are guilty or not, and also the crime.
not "and also the crime"... it depends what the crime was FIRST AND FOREMOST. if you're guilty of jaywalking the specific crime in question is not an additional afterthought - the punishment should fit the crime. even being a scumbag drug dealer doesn't 'deserve' a death penality. that is not 'justice'. justice seeks to redress the balance and to restore peace, not to further violence and advocate state brutality.
I understand this, but like I have said time and time again, a criminal dying in the act of committing a crime does not bother me in the slightest. and please lets not include jay walking as a crime JUST LIKE a crime where there is a victim.
2011-05-17 18:14:30
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5433|foggy bottom

Reciprocity wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

this story makes me think about what would have happened if I went charles "lowing" bronson on them
got down on your knees and sucked some police dick?
How can I be of assistance, officer
Tu Stultus Es
2011-05-17 18:16:26
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6644

lowing wrote:

Uzique wrote:

lowing wrote:


Depends if they are guilty or not, and also the crime.
not "and also the crime"... it depends what the crime was FIRST AND FOREMOST. if you're guilty of jaywalking the specific crime in question is not an additional afterthought - the punishment should fit the crime. even being a scumbag drug dealer doesn't 'deserve' a death penality. that is not 'justice'. justice seeks to redress the balance and to restore peace, not to further violence and advocate state brutality.
I understand this, but like I have said time and time again, a criminal dying in the act of committing a crime does not bother me in the slightest. and please lets not include jay walking as a crime JUST LIKE a crime where there is a victim.
how does a drug dealer produce 'victims'? it's a sale. people go there wanting a product and they buy it voluntarily. if they get addicted, surely that's their responsibility? how can a conservative with strong beliefs in american individualism imply some form of communal responsibility and blame for a drug addict? if you go and willingly buy drugs (and no one is ever forced to), then it's your fault if you become an addict. drug dealing in that sense is a victimless crime. everything else after that is your bias and conjecture putting shit on the guy that you don't know and don't have any evidence for. does that deserve death, then? well then i guess libel and copyright infringement are victimless crimes equally deserving of a firing squad
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-05-17 18:16:37
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5532|London, England

lowing wrote:

Uzique wrote:

lowing wrote:


Depends if they are guilty or not, and also the crime.
not "and also the crime"... it depends what the crime was FIRST AND FOREMOST. if you're guilty of jaywalking the specific crime in question is not an additional afterthought - the punishment should fit the crime. even being a scumbag drug dealer doesn't 'deserve' a death penality. that is not 'justice'. justice seeks to redress the balance and to restore peace, not to further violence and advocate state brutality.
I understand this, but like I have said time and time again, a criminal dying in the act of committing a crime does not bother me in the slightest. and please lets not include jay walking as a crime JUST LIKE a crime where there is a victim.
Where's the victim in dealing drugs? Oh right, there is none.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-05-17 18:19:40
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6644
lowing doesn't want to know when he has to take responsibility or cover someone else with taxes and common citizenship but as soon as a drug dealer's clients have problems of their own he's the responsible glue of the crackhead community...
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-05-17 18:22:15
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6825|USA

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:

Uzique wrote:


not "and also the crime"... it depends what the crime was FIRST AND FOREMOST. if you're guilty of jaywalking the specific crime in question is not an additional afterthought - the punishment should fit the crime. even being a scumbag drug dealer doesn't 'deserve' a death penality. that is not 'justice'. justice seeks to redress the balance and to restore peace, not to further violence and advocate state brutality.
I understand this, but like I have said time and time again, a criminal dying in the act of committing a crime does not bother me in the slightest. and please lets not include jay walking as a crime JUST LIKE a crime where there is a victim.
Where's the victim in dealing drugs? Oh right, there is none.
drug dealing and abuse are victimless crimes? Really? Families, society does not pay for those crimes?
2011-05-17 18:23:07
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5532|London, England

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:


I understand this, but like I have said time and time again, a criminal dying in the act of committing a crime does not bother me in the slightest. and please lets not include jay walking as a crime JUST LIKE a crime where there is a victim.
Where's the victim in dealing drugs? Oh right, there is none.
drug dealing and abuse are victimless crimes? Really? Families, society does not pay for those crimes?
Does the drug dealer put a gun to the drug users head? No. Do you blame the liquor store for turning people into alcoholics?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-05-17 18:25:10
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6825|USA

Uzique wrote:

lowing doesn't want to know when he has to take responsibility or cover someone else with taxes and common citizenship but as soon as a drug dealer's clients have problems of their own he's the responsible glue of the crackhead community...
not really. I couldn't care less about either one.
2011-05-17 18:26:44
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6825|USA

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:


Where's the victim in dealing drugs? Oh right, there is none.
drug dealing and abuse are victimless crimes? Really? Families, society does not pay for those crimes?
Does the drug dealer put a gun to the drug users head? No. Do you blame the liquor store for turning people into alcoholics?
nope and nope, doesn't mean their are no victims though, as you claim.
2011-05-17 18:29:23
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5532|London, England

lowing wrote:

Jay wrote:

lowing wrote:

drug dealing and abuse are victimless crimes? Really? Families, society does not pay for those crimes?
Does the drug dealer put a gun to the drug users head? No. Do you blame the liquor store for turning people into alcoholics?
nope and nope, doesn't mean their are no victims though, as you claim.
Yes, that's precisely what it means. Secondary and tertiary 'victims' are irrelevant. That's not the drug dealers problem. That's on the drug user. Just like visiting a prostitute while married is not the fault of the prostitute. She's not the reason the marriage subsequently fails. He is. He bears full responsibility, just like the drug user and alcoholic can't pass the blame off either.

Last edited by Jay (2011-05-17 18:30:00)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-05-17 18:31:18
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6825|USA

Uzique wrote:

lowing wrote:

Uzique wrote:


not "and also the crime"... it depends what the crime was FIRST AND FOREMOST. if you're guilty of jaywalking the specific crime in question is not an additional afterthought - the punishment should fit the crime. even being a scumbag drug dealer doesn't 'deserve' a death penality. that is not 'justice'. justice seeks to redress the balance and to restore peace, not to further violence and advocate state brutality.
I understand this, but like I have said time and time again, a criminal dying in the act of committing a crime does not bother me in the slightest. and please lets not include jay walking as a crime JUST LIKE a crime where there is a victim.
how does a drug dealer produce 'victims'? it's a sale. people go there wanting a product and they buy it voluntarily. if they get addicted, surely that's their responsibility? how can a conservative with strong beliefs in american individualism imply some form of communal responsibility and blame for a drug addict? if you go and willingly buy drugs (and no one is ever forced to), then it's your fault if you become an addict. drug dealing in that sense is a victimless crime. everything else after that is your bias and conjecture putting shit on the guy that you don't know and don't have any evidence for. does that deserve death, then? well then i guess libel and copyright infringement are victimless crimes equally deserving of a firing squad
family members are victims, and so are people who are in the wrong place at the wrong time when the addicts are desperate for money for their next fix. I wonder if you would consider those innocent people killed caught in the crossfire with drug cartels as victims....Guess not.

 

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