Pages: 1 … 63 64 65 66 67 … 74

 

2011-05-08 08:54:41
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6213|...

Uzique wrote:

shocking falls for the moronic worldview that the west is somehow inherently more 'civilized' and 'advanced' than other inferior cultures, who are of course utterly barbaric and deplorable in comparison to our high-minded, lofty and noble ideals.
That's bullshit

I was comparing the Afghanistan/Iraq situation to the last major war which we were personally involved in; Vietnam.

Vietnam was fucked up. Afgh/Iraq isnt nearly as bad, in terms of how operations have been conducted etc - there's no way you can deny that.

Uzique wrote:

no we haven't learnt from that. how have we learnt from it? you're delusional if you think europe and america have suddenly sprung from the traps of barbarity in 10 years. what is 10 years? irish terrorists are threatening attacks again in our news only last week. we've learnt from it? you guys were propping up horrible dictators in the middle-east until about 2 fucking months ago. you've learnt from it?

honestly the shit you talk is pure fucking delusion
As a collective; i.e. military action. You can't account for groups like the IRA, that sort of thing will always be around.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-05-08 09:05:08)

inane little opines
2011-05-08 09:00:55
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6213|...

Dilbert_X wrote:

Shocking wrote:

You can cite examples from history but the point is that we have learnt from that. We use more sophisticated equipment and handle operations with way more care.
Bottom line is we hire other people to do the dirty work, were the Northern Alliance careful about not hitting civilians? When the mujahedeen were working for us did they follow the Geneva convention?
How about when we were shipping detainees to Egypt to be tortured, is that 'more care'?

And we haven't stopped carpet bombing because of concern for civilians, precision bombing is simply cheaper and more effective.
Oh come on, there is loads more emphasis on avoiding civillian casualties than there ever was before. It's ingrained in military doctrine, especially now because there are cameras following your every move in war.

And you have to put the mujahedeen situation in historical context; the cold war. In fighting the USSR almost everything was fair game, but nobody could at that time have foreseen this would've been the consequence.
inane little opines
2011-05-08 09:04:19
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6684

Shocking wrote:

Uzique wrote:

shocking falls for the moronic worldview that the west is somehow inherently more 'civilized' and 'advanced' than other inferior cultures, who are of course utterly barbaric and deplorable in comparison to our high-minded, lofty and noble ideals.
That's bullshit

I was comparing the Afghanistan/Iraq situation to the last major war which we were personally involved in; Vietnam.

Vietnam was fucked up. Afgh/Iraq isnt nearly as bad, in terms of how operations have been conducted etc - there's no way you can deny that.
the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-05-08 09:05:56
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5450|Cleveland, Ohio
why do you speak as if your country is not there at all?  you should say our not your

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2011-05-08 09:07:32)

2011-05-08 09:07:08
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6930

Uzique wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Uzique wrote:

shocking falls for the moronic worldview that the west is somehow inherently more 'civilized' and 'advanced' than other inferior cultures, who are of course utterly barbaric and deplorable in comparison to our high-minded, lofty and noble ideals.
That's bullshit

I was comparing the Afghanistan/Iraq situation to the last major war which we were personally involved in; Vietnam.

Vietnam was fucked up. Afgh/Iraq isnt nearly as bad, in terms of how operations have been conducted etc - there's no way you can deny that.
the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.
You should read On Killing. Good book, claims modern training techniques help desensitize soldiers and shit.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2011-05-08 09:08:38
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5450|Cleveland, Ohio

Cybargs wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Shocking wrote:


That's bullshit

I was comparing the Afghanistan/Iraq situation to the last major war which we were personally involved in; Vietnam.

Vietnam was fucked up. Afgh/Iraq isnt nearly as bad, in terms of how operations have been conducted etc - there's no way you can deny that.
the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.
You should read On Killing. Good book, claims modern training techniques help desensitize soldiers and shit.
load of bollocks
2011-05-08 09:10:10
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6213|...

Uzique wrote:

the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.
The RoEs that are in place limit military action in a lot of instances exactly because people are conscious about not killing civillians. It's regarded as inhumane, unnecessary and extremely counterproductive.

Advances in the precision of the military tech have been made for exactly the same reasons. Not only efficiency, the ethics play a role in it as well.
inane little opines
2011-05-08 09:17:03
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6684

Shocking wrote:

Uzique wrote:

the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.
The RoEs that are in place limit military action in a lot of instances exactly because people are conscious about not killing civillians. It's regarded as inhumane, unnecessary and extremely counterproductive.

Advances in the precision of the military tech have been made for exactly the same reasons. Not only efficiency, the ethics play a role in it as well.
civ killings happen a lot more in iraq/afghanistan than you'd know. you seem to be a bit textbook in your view of the military. lots of stories around about troops killing civilians for fun, out of boredom or frustration, and then covering it up in the reports or using weapons seized from insurgency/afghan military. it's war and bad shit like this happens all the time. nothing has changed between vietnam and now when it comes to human ethics. all the RoE codes and international laws in the world don't matter for shit, it's just a pretense.

and usm i say 'your' and not 'our' because this is a thread about bin laden being killed so i'm in the habit of discussing it as an american thing. for the sake of this argument, 'our' doesn't really fit because we don't have the same opinions about the islamic world and muslims that you (or more specifically lowing) does.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-05-08 09:18:40
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6930

11 Bravo wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Uzique wrote:


the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.
You should read On Killing. Good book, claims modern training techniques help desensitize soldiers and shit.
load of bollocks
which part? the desensitization or that humans generally wont bring themselves to kill another human?
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2011-05-08 09:20:55
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5472|foggy bottom
1234 trained to kill
1234 kill we will
Tu Stultus Es
2011-05-08 09:21:56
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6684
desensitization and the dehumanization of the enemy has always been part of military training. it's not a modern america thing.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-05-08 09:24:40
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6213|...

Uzique wrote:

civ killings happen a lot more in iraq/afghanistan than you'd know. you seem to be a bit textbook in your view of the military. lots of stories around about troops killing civilians for fun, out of boredom or frustration, and then covering it up in the reports or using weapons seized from insurgency/afghan military. it's war and bad shit like this happens all the time. nothing has changed between vietnam and now when it comes to human ethics. all the RoE codes and international laws in the world don't matter for shit, it's just a pretense.

and usm i say 'your' and not 'our' because this is a thread about bin laden being killed so i'm in the habit of discussing it as an american thing. for the sake of this argument, 'our' doesn't really fit because we don't have the same opinions about the islamic world and muslims that you (or more specifically lowing) does.
I rely on personal stories from people who went to Afgh and documentaries mostly. That and the fact that every civilian casualty needs to be accounted for and will be investigated. Executing a civ does not stand, unless there's no one in the entire team that has a working moral compass; then, yes, you may be able to cover it up.

In Vietnam they gave you a medal and hope you'd never mention it again. People who indiscriminately kill civilians WILL be found out.
inane little opines
2011-05-08 09:29:31
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6684
see, though, every civilian death isn't investigated with due rigour and attention. there are countless stories about officers just dismissing or playing down an incident - nobody wants to get in trouble or to have the shit land on their plate. you, once again, have this ideal vision that our military are somehow more civilized and 'advanced' than the inferior enemy. not really. we're all human beings and the ethics and drives haven't changed much at all. this whole arbitrary division between 'our' mentality and 'their' mentality is just futile.

you just seem very naive about this. people are out there to kill and fuck shit up. they're not all there with lofty high ambitions.

Last edited by Uzique (2011-05-08 09:29:51)

libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-05-08 10:00:27
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5472|foggy bottom
lots of civies were killed during my deployment
Tu Stultus Es
2011-05-08 10:06:08
13rin
Member
+977|6693

eleven bravo wrote:

1234 trained to kill
1234 kill we will
I remember seeing/reading something about a problem with getting soldiers to fire in battle at a human target.  If memory serves correct -in the story, a rifle was found on a civil war battlefield post fight, with 15 rounds stuffed down the barrel. The man was reloading after each volley without firing.  After that there was a shift in training and I can't remember exactly what it was, but they were successful.  The program/read went on to say that they were so successful and with the advent of full auto coupled by accuracy issues that come with it -Tremendous amount of ammo waste in Vietnam (when the ammo finally worked), they changed the M-16 to have a 3rd burst only. etc...  Anyone else ever heard this?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
2011-05-08 10:10:04
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5472|foggy bottom

13rin wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

1234 trained to kill
1234 kill we will
I remember seeing/reading something about a problem with getting soldiers to fire in battle at a human target.  If memory serves correct -in the story, a rifle was found on a civil war battlefield post fight, with 15 rounds stuffed down the barrel. The man was reloading after each volley without firing.  After that there was a shift in training and I can't remember exactly what it was, but they were successful.  The program/read went on to say that they were so successful and with the advent of full auto coupled by accuracy issues that come with it -Tremendous amount of ammo waste in Vietnam (when the ammo finally worked), they changed the M-16 to have a 3rd burst only. etc...  Anyone else ever heard this?
In vietnam, 80% of fresh soldiers purposefully aimed high while firing on the enemy  in their first engagement
Tu Stultus Es
2011-05-08 10:18:04
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6684

eleven bravo wrote:

lots of civies were killed during my deployment
and was every single occurrence chased and solved in a due legal manner?

shocking may be shocked if not
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2011-05-08 11:23:47
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6213|...
No, I'm well aware that civilian deaths are downplayed internally and that people in the military don't like dealing with this sort of stuff. Yeah, I know they don't want the shit to land on their plate - nor does anyone like to shit over colleagues. I was specifically talking about indiscriminately killing civilians, executions etc.

I think you have a skewed view of what I actually think. I'm aware of all this, but it doesn't change the fact that since Vietnam lots has changed. Not having draftees participate is just one of many changes which has had a very positive effect on the overall workings of the military. I very much doubt it's anywhere near as bad as it was back then.

Yes I do in fact feel that our military operates in a more civilised manner than the Taliban because people are actually held accountable for their actions, especially since the introduction of the camera crew to the warzone. (Take the debacle that was soldiers posing with dead bodies for example) You're also forgetting that for this war to succeed having good relations with the locals is imperative. Showing the same merciless action as the Taliban is completely counterproductive to the set goal; It's in our best interest to tread cautiously, and I trust that the people on top are not completely ignorant of this fact.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-05-08 11:26:18)

inane little opines
2011-05-08 11:32:11
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6436|Escea

eleven bravo wrote:

13rin wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

1234 trained to kill
1234 kill we will
I remember seeing/reading something about a problem with getting soldiers to fire in battle at a human target.  If memory serves correct -in the story, a rifle was found on a civil war battlefield post fight, with 15 rounds stuffed down the barrel. The man was reloading after each volley without firing.  After that there was a shift in training and I can't remember exactly what it was, but they were successful.  The program/read went on to say that they were so successful and with the advent of full auto coupled by accuracy issues that come with it -Tremendous amount of ammo waste in Vietnam (when the ammo finally worked), they changed the M-16 to have a 3rd burst only. etc...  Anyone else ever heard this?
In vietnam, 80% of fresh soldiers purposefully aimed high while firing on the enemy  in their first engagement
They mentioned that in Stare at Goats.
2011-05-08 12:52:25
13/f/taiwan
Member
+940|5912
where is lowing? i want to see how he will spin this...
2011-05-08 13:50:26
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5250|Massachusetts, USA

13/f/taiwan wrote:

where is lowing? i want to see how he will spin this...
Try a few pages back.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2011-05-08 16:18:15
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6814|132 and Bush

This thread, and DAST in general.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2011-05-08 16:21:42
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6865|USA

Uzique wrote:

the video wasn't talking about extremists, at all, for a start... he was talking about the average citizen that took up arms against the western forces. i don't know what term you'd use to designate them... the insurgency? he clearly was not talking about bomb-blowing extremists (plus he was only being rhetorical, anyway). the point of his exercise was to understand the ire and angst of even the most average and law-abiding citizen, given the recent world history and his individual experience.

and there's a fine line between 'intentional' civilian deaths and 'unintentional'. in the case of america i think turning a blind eye and purposefully being ignorant to the potential for civilian damage isn't any less contemptible. you guys fund and have carried out a lot of foreign affairs that directly endanger innocent people. just because you dress it in political smiles and nicely worded speeches, doesn't make it any better than the guys dressing it in quran quotes and shouts of allah-hu akhbar
The "average citizen" in the US does not own RPG's and shoulder launched rockets, apparently they do in the ME?

Well take your pick Uzi, if we continued to turn a blind eye in Iraq and the atrocities of Saddam and his sons, you would say we are monsters, we didn't, and went in and kicked his ass, you then claim we are meddling and is the reason for the average Iraqi loving father taking his RPG out of the closet and blowing up a tank to protect his country. You simply can not have it both ways....We can not refrain from "meddling" and be a protector at the same time. SO tell me which do you prefer, a blind eye, or meddling to try and help?
2011-05-08 16:23:01
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6865|USA

FatherTed wrote:

literally i respect you as a poster in general but that ranks amongst the most retarded things i have ever seen
You have a point fatherted, I did say western society, didn't I?
2011-05-08 16:26:51
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6865|USA

Uzique wrote:

now watch lowing defend the 'west' by making some arbitrary distinction between the americans/christians and the IRA, who are of course exceptional... whereas any form of middle-eastern terrorism or extremism isn't exceptional or a rare example, it's general and applies to everyone.

I dunno the numbers, but I am willing to bet there is a higher percentage of incidences in the ME than there was with the IRA. Also, all I gotta do is go back a day to find the latest terror attack. How far back do you have to go to find the latest IRA attack?

 

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