Obama Press Conference: Bin Laden Is Dead

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Obama Press Conference: Bin Laden Is Dead

2011-05-08 09:04:19

#1601

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|7017

Shocking wrote:
Uzique wrote:
shocking falls for the moronic worldview that the west is somehow inherently more 'civilized' and 'advanced' than other inferior cultures, who are of course utterly barbaric and deplorable in comparison to our high-minded, lofty and noble ideals.
That's bullshit

I was comparing the Afghanistan/Iraq situation to the last major war which we were personally involved in; Vietnam.

Vietnam was fucked up. Afgh/Iraq isnt nearly as bad, in terms of how operations have been conducted etc - there's no way you can deny that.

the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-05-08 09:05:56

#1602

11 Bravo: Banned; +965|5783|Cleveland, Ohio

why do you speak as if your country is not there at all? you should say our not your

Last edited by 11 Bravo (2011-05-08 09:07:32)

2011-05-08 09:07:08

#1603

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|7262

Uzique wrote:
Shocking wrote:
Uzique wrote:
shocking falls for the moronic worldview that the west is somehow inherently more 'civilized' and 'advanced' than other inferior cultures, who are of course utterly barbaric and deplorable in comparison to our high-minded, lofty and noble ideals.
That's bullshit

I was comparing the Afghanistan/Iraq situation to the last major war which we were personally involved in; Vietnam.

Vietnam was fucked up. Afgh/Iraq isnt nearly as bad, in terms of how operations have been conducted etc - there's no way you can deny that.
the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.

You should read On Killing. Good book, claims modern training techniques help desensitize soldiers and shit.

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png

2011-05-08 09:08:38

#1604

11 Bravo: Banned; +965|5783|Cleveland, Ohio

Cybargs wrote:
Uzique wrote:
Shocking wrote:

That's bullshit

I was comparing the Afghanistan/Iraq situation to the last major war which we were personally involved in; Vietnam.

Vietnam was fucked up. Afgh/Iraq isnt nearly as bad, in terms of how operations have been conducted etc - there's no way you can deny that.
the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.
You should read On Killing. Good book, claims modern training techniques help desensitize soldiers and shit.

load of bollocks

2011-05-08 09:10:10

#1605

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6545|...

Uzique wrote:
the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.

The RoEs that are in place limit military action in a lot of instances exactly because people are conscious about not killing civillians. It's regarded as inhumane, unnecessary and extremely counterproductive.

Advances in the precision of the military tech have been made for exactly the same reasons. Not only efficiency, the ethics play a role in it as well.

inane little opines

2011-05-08 09:17:03

#1606

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|7017

Shocking wrote:
Uzique wrote:
the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.
The RoEs that are in place limit military action in a lot of instances exactly because people are conscious about not killing civillians. It's regarded as inhumane, unnecessary and extremely counterproductive.

Advances in the precision of the military tech have been made for exactly the same reasons. Not only efficiency, the ethics play a role in it as well.

civ killings happen a lot more in iraq/afghanistan than you'd know. you seem to be a bit textbook in your view of the military. lots of stories around about troops killing civilians for fun, out of boredom or frustration, and then covering it up in the reports or using weapons seized from insurgency/afghan military. it's war and bad shit like this happens all the time. nothing has changed between vietnam and now when it comes to human ethics. all the RoE codes and international laws in the world don't matter for shit, it's just a pretense.

and usm i say 'your' and not 'our' because this is a thread about bin laden being killed so i'm in the habit of discussing it as an american thing. for the sake of this argument, 'our' doesn't really fit because we don't have the same opinions about the islamic world and muslims that you (or more specifically lowing) does.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-05-08 09:18:40

#1607

Cybargs: Moderated; +2,285|7262

11 Bravo wrote:
Cybargs wrote:
Uzique wrote:

the only improvement has been in the precision and efficiency of your technology. the ethics haven't changed.
You should read On Killing. Good book, claims modern training techniques help desensitize soldiers and shit.
load of bollocks

which part? the desensitization or that humans generally wont bring themselves to kill another human?

2011-05-08 09:20:55

#1608

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5805|foggy bottom

1234 trained to kill
1234 kill we will

Tu Stultus Es

2011-05-08 09:21:56

#1609

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|7017

desensitization and the dehumanization of the enemy has always been part of military training. it's not a modern america thing.

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-05-08 09:24:40

#1610

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6545|...

Uzique wrote:
civ killings happen a lot more in iraq/afghanistan than you'd know. you seem to be a bit textbook in your view of the military. lots of stories around about troops killing civilians for fun, out of boredom or frustration, and then covering it up in the reports or using weapons seized from insurgency/afghan military. it's war and bad shit like this happens all the time. nothing has changed between vietnam and now when it comes to human ethics. all the RoE codes and international laws in the world don't matter for shit, it's just a pretense.

and usm i say 'your' and not 'our' because this is a thread about bin laden being killed so i'm in the habit of discussing it as an american thing. for the sake of this argument, 'our' doesn't really fit because we don't have the same opinions about the islamic world and muslims that you (or more specifically lowing) does.

I rely on personal stories from people who went to Afgh and documentaries mostly. That and the fact that every civilian casualty needs to be accounted for and will be investigated. Executing a civ does not stand, unless there's no one in the entire team that has a working moral compass; then, yes, you may be able to cover it up.

In Vietnam they gave you a medal and hope you'd never mention it again. People who indiscriminately kill civilians WILL be found out.

inane little opines

2011-05-08 09:29:31

#1611

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|7017

see, though, every civilian death isn't investigated with due rigour and attention. there are countless stories about officers just dismissing or playing down an incident - nobody wants to get in trouble or to have the shit land on their plate. you, once again, have this ideal vision that our military are somehow more civilized and 'advanced' than the inferior enemy. not really. we're all human beings and the ethics and drives haven't changed much at all. this whole arbitrary division between 'our' mentality and 'their' mentality is just futile.

you just seem very naive about this. people are out there to kill and fuck shit up. they're not all there with lofty high ambitions.

Last edited by Uzique (2011-05-08 09:29:51)

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-05-08 10:00:27

#1612

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5805|foggy bottom

lots of civies were killed during my deployment

Tu Stultus Es

2011-05-08 10:06:08

#1613

13rin: Member; +977|7025

eleven bravo wrote:
1234 trained to kill
1234 kill we will

I remember seeing/reading something about a problem with getting soldiers to fire in battle at a human target. If memory serves correct -in the story, a rifle was found on a civil war battlefield post fight, with 15 rounds stuffed down the barrel. The man was reloading after each volley without firing. After that there was a shift in training and I can't remember exactly what it was, but they were successful. The program/read went on to say that they were so successful and with the advent of full auto coupled by accuracy issues that come with it -Tremendous amount of ammo waste in Vietnam (when the ammo finally worked), they changed the M-16 to have a 3rd burst only. etc... Anyone else ever heard this?

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

2011-05-08 10:10:04

#1614

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5805|foggy bottom

13rin wrote:
eleven bravo wrote:
1234 trained to kill
1234 kill we will
I remember seeing/reading something about a problem with getting soldiers to fire in battle at a human target. If memory serves correct -in the story, a rifle was found on a civil war battlefield post fight, with 15 rounds stuffed down the barrel. The man was reloading after each volley without firing. After that there was a shift in training and I can't remember exactly what it was, but they were successful. The program/read went on to say that they were so successful and with the advent of full auto coupled by accuracy issues that come with it -Tremendous amount of ammo waste in Vietnam (when the ammo finally worked), they changed the M-16 to have a 3rd burst only. etc... Anyone else ever heard this?

In vietnam, 80% of fresh soldiers purposefully aimed high while firing on the enemy in their first engagement

Tu Stultus Es

2011-05-08 10:18:04

#1615

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|7017

eleven bravo wrote:
lots of civies were killed during my deployment

and was every single occurrence chased and solved in a due legal manner?

shocking may be shocked if not

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-05-08 11:23:47

#1616

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6545|...

No, I'm well aware that civilian deaths are downplayed internally and that people in the military don't like dealing with this sort of stuff. Yeah, I know they don't want the shit to land on their plate - nor does anyone like to shit over colleagues. I was specifically talking about indiscriminately killing civilians, executions etc.

I think you have a skewed view of what I actually think. I'm aware of all this, but it doesn't change the fact that since Vietnam lots has changed. Not having draftees participate is just one of many changes which has had a very positive effect on the overall workings of the military. I very much doubt it's anywhere near as bad as it was back then.

Yes I do in fact feel that our military operates in a more civilised manner than the Taliban because people are actually held accountable for their actions, especially since the introduction of the camera crew to the warzone. (Take the debacle that was soldiers posing with dead bodies for example) You're also forgetting that for this war to succeed having good relations with the locals is imperative. Showing the same merciless action as the Taliban is completely counterproductive to the set goal; It's in our best interest to tread cautiously, and I trust that the people on top are not completely ignorant of this fact.

Last edited by Shocking (2011-05-08 11:26:18)

inane little opines

2011-05-08 11:32:11

#1617

M.O.A.B: 'Light 'em up!'; +1,220|6769|Escea

eleven bravo wrote:
13rin wrote:
eleven bravo wrote:
1234 trained to kill
1234 kill we will
I remember seeing/reading something about a problem with getting soldiers to fire in battle at a human target. If memory serves correct -in the story, a rifle was found on a civil war battlefield post fight, with 15 rounds stuffed down the barrel. The man was reloading after each volley without firing. After that there was a shift in training and I can't remember exactly what it was, but they were successful. The program/read went on to say that they were so successful and with the advent of full auto coupled by accuracy issues that come with it -Tremendous amount of ammo waste in Vietnam (when the ammo finally worked), they changed the M-16 to have a 3rd burst only. etc... Anyone else ever heard this?
In vietnam, 80% of fresh soldiers purposefully aimed high while firing on the enemy in their first engagement

They mentioned that in Stare at Goats.

2011-05-08 12:52:25

#1618

13/f/taiwan: Member; +940|6245

where is lowing? i want to see how he will spin this...

2011-05-08 13:50:26

#1619

UnkleRukus: That Guy; +236|5582|Massachusetts, USA

13/f/taiwan wrote:
where is lowing? i want to see how he will spin this...

Try a few pages back.

If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.

2011-05-08 16:18:15

#1620

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|7147|132 and Bush

This thread, and DAST in general.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2011-05-08 16:21:42

#1621

lowing: Banned; +1,662|7197|USA

Uzique wrote:
the video wasn't talking about extremists, at all, for a start... he was talking about the average citizen that took up arms against the western forces. i don't know what term you'd use to designate them... the insurgency? he clearly was not talking about bomb-blowing extremists (plus he was only being rhetorical, anyway). the point of his exercise was to understand the ire and angst of even the most average and law-abiding citizen, given the recent world history and his individual experience.

and there's a fine line between 'intentional' civilian deaths and 'unintentional'. in the case of america i think turning a blind eye and purposefully being ignorant to the potential for civilian damage isn't any less contemptible. you guys fund and have carried out a lot of foreign affairs that directly endanger innocent people. just because you dress it in political smiles and nicely worded speeches, doesn't make it any better than the guys dressing it in quran quotes and shouts of allah-hu akhbar

The "average citizen" in the US does not own RPG's and shoulder launched rockets, apparently they do in the ME?

Well take your pick Uzi, if we continued to turn a blind eye in Iraq and the atrocities of Saddam and his sons, you would say we are monsters, we didn't, and went in and kicked his ass, you then claim we are meddling and is the reason for the average Iraqi loving father taking his RPG out of the closet and blowing up a tank to protect his country. You simply can not have it both ways....We can not refrain from "meddling" and be a protector at the same time. SO tell me which do you prefer, a blind eye, or meddling to try and help?

2011-05-08 16:23:01

#1622

lowing: Banned; +1,662|7197|USA

FatherTed wrote:
literally i respect you as a poster in general but that ranks amongst the most retarded things i have ever seen

You have a point fatherted, I did say western society, didn't I?

2011-05-08 16:26:51

#1623

lowing: Banned; +1,662|7197|USA

Uzique wrote:
now watch lowing defend the 'west' by making some arbitrary distinction between the americans/christians and the IRA, who are of course exceptional... whereas any form of middle-eastern terrorism or extremism isn't exceptional or a rare example, it's general and applies to everyone.

I dunno the numbers, but I am willing to bet there is a higher percentage of incidences in the ME than there was with the IRA. Also, all I gotta do is go back a day to find the latest terror attack. How far back do you have to go to find the latest IRA attack?

2011-05-08 16:28:19

#1624

lowing: Banned; +1,662|7197|USA

FatherTed wrote:
see this shit cuts straight to the bone - my mother and father, and thus myself might not be alive were it not for the ineptitude of irish bombers. yet you single out islam as 'the issue' when this sort of behaviour is commonplace geographically and historically?

disgusting tbh

we call it current events fatherted.

2011-05-08 16:29:45

#1625

Hurricane2k9: Pendulous Sweaty Balls; +1,538|6248|College Park, MD

lowing wrote:
FatherTed wrote:
see this shit cuts straight to the bone - my mother and father, and thus myself might not be alive were it not for the ineptitude of irish bombers. yet you single out islam as 'the issue' when this sort of behaviour is commonplace geographically and historically?

disgusting tbh
we call it current events fatherted.

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Real-I … 62324.html

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg

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Shocking wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Shocking wrote:

Uzique wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Uzique wrote:

Uzique wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

13rin wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

13rin wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

13/f/taiwan wrote:

Uzique wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

Uzique wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

lowing wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

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