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2010-12-22 08:39:26
OrangeHound
Busy doing highfalutin adminy stuff ...
+1,335|6651|Washington DC

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

I know they are myths because I'm in the midst of this.
care to elaborate ?

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

If you want to go on a crusade against a population in America that is burdening the "system", look at the entrenched, inner city African American population ... 90% are just trying to work the system to get benefits without work.  Illegal immigrants are not.
Can you back this up with facts or is the something you " know . . .  because I'm in the midst of this " also ?

Before you respond it may be important to note that he specified " inner city " of which the housing projects are sure to make up a large percentage.
I am the director of a private organization that provides mentoring, resources, and support for individuals and families who are in crisis ... my visibility and opinions are limited, however, to Washington DC, Arlington VA and Alexandria VA.  I've been doing this for the past 10 years.

We work with Caucasian, Latino (both legal and illegal), and African-American.   The vast majority are not in housing projects, but in regular apartments.  Most we work with are near-homeless.  Some are homeless.
2010-12-22 08:41:13
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

DrunkFace wrote:

UnkleRukus wrote:

since most Americans don't want to be doing the jobs that the immigrants are, I say let them in and pay them a decent wage.
That is the dumbest thing I have heard in a long, long time.
The sad thing is...  it's true.  We have a surplus of poor lazy people.  Then again, Americans are too cheap to pay a decent amount for services rendered.  We want it both ways.

If only we cared more about quality and national security more and less about saving a few bucks.
2010-12-22 08:46:32
OrangeHound
Busy doing highfalutin adminy stuff ...
+1,335|6651|Washington DC

JohnG@lt wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

Myth #1: Illegal immigrants don't pay for government services - Actually they do.  Illegal immigrants pay sales taxes just like you and I pay them, they pay for tolls and they pay personal property taxes.  Now, of course, they don't pay federal or state income taxes but here's the wisdom:  you don't want them to file.   If illegal immigrants filed income taxes like a legal citizen, then their low income would qualify them for the Earned Income Credit.  Rather than paying taxes, they would actually have a negative tax burden, getting back anywhere from $1,000 to $3,000 in credits.  Amazing, I know ... but the EIC is veiled welfare payment to low income earners.
Myth #1 was incorrect. They do pay federal and state income tax if they are working on the books with a false identity. They simply can't request a tax refund in April. If they are working off the books, well, that's an issue that applies to everyone, black, white, mexican, asian, martian etc.
I've never encountered an illegal immigrant who was in the system, working under a false identity ... not to say that it doesn't happen or hasn't happened in the past, but I've just not seen it in the last 5 years.   I've encountered many working with an "expired" green card.

The illegal immigrants I know work under the radar, doing day labor and/or paid by legitimate businesses under the table.
2010-12-22 08:47:26
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

Kmar wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Are you sure that's what happened?
The Census Bureau released a few reports last year talking about how they wanted to include illegals in figures because of the stuff that Orange mentioned.  They saw it as helping states with large illegal populations get more federal funding for the burdens they face.

However, for obvious reasons, the form doesn't ask if you are a citizen or not.  So, the numbers produced by the Census include illegals.  There's no way of knowing exactly how many illegals are included, but there was no attempt to distinguish between citizens and non-citizens.
How do they decide who to send the forms to? Ssn? Property taxes? Voter registration? All would seemingly indicate citizenship. I guess the homeowner could put down illegals as part of the count. But I think they would not want to do that for fear of getting turned in to ice.
As far as I understand it, they took a slightly different approach this time.

Also, they are counting prisoners by where they are kept, not where they are from.
2010-12-22 08:48:09
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6683|Disaster Free Zone

JohnG@lt wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

UnkleRukus wrote:

since most Americans don't want to be doing the jobs that the immigrants are, I say let them in and pay them a decent wage.
That is the dumbest thing I have heard in a long, long time.
If they were paid a decent wage there would be no need for them
At least one person gets the irony of the first statement.
2010-12-22 08:48:43
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England

OrangeHound wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

Myth #1: Illegal immigrants don't pay for government services - Actually they do.  Illegal immigrants pay sales taxes just like you and I pay them, they pay for tolls and they pay personal property taxes.  Now, of course, they don't pay federal or state income taxes but here's the wisdom:  you don't want them to file.   If illegal immigrants filed income taxes like a legal citizen, then their low income would qualify them for the Earned Income Credit.  Rather than paying taxes, they would actually have a negative tax burden, getting back anywhere from $1,000 to $3,000 in credits.  Amazing, I know ... but the EIC is veiled welfare payment to low income earners.
Myth #1 was incorrect. They do pay federal and state income tax if they are working on the books with a false identity. They simply can't request a tax refund in April. If they are working off the books, well, that's an issue that applies to everyone, black, white, mexican, asian, martian etc.
I've never encountered an illegal immigrant who was in the system, working under a false identity ... not to say that it doesn't happen or hasn't happened in the past, but I've just not seen it in the last 5 years.   I've encountered many working with an "expired" green card.
I've worked in a lot of restaurants over the years and it's really common. Hell, the Burger King in my hometown was shut down about ten years ago because 13 employees were working under the same social security number. They'd all gone to the same guy for a fake SS card
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-22 08:48:56
11 Bravo
Banned
+965|5239|Cleveland, Ohio

OrangeHound wrote:

I am the director of a private organization that provides mentoring, resources, and support for individuals and families who are in crisis ...
you should work at bf2s tbh
2010-12-22 08:53:04
OrangeHound
Busy doing highfalutin adminy stuff ...
+1,335|6651|Washington DC

JohnG@lt wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


Myth #1 was incorrect. They do pay federal and state income tax if they are working on the books with a false identity. They simply can't request a tax refund in April. If they are working off the books, well, that's an issue that applies to everyone, black, white, mexican, asian, martian etc.
I've never encountered an illegal immigrant who was in the system, working under a false identity ... not to say that it doesn't happen or hasn't happened in the past, but I've just not seen it in the last 5 years.   I've encountered many working with an "expired" green card.
I've worked in a lot of restaurants over the years and it's really common. Hell, the Burger King in my hometown was shut down about ten years ago because 13 employees were working under the same social security number. They'd all gone to the same guy for a fake SS card
My guess is that this is kind of hard to do these days ... also, illegals used to be able to get drivers licenses up until a couple of years ago, but I think that it might be near to impossible to do it in 2010.
2010-12-22 08:53:12
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

DrunkFace wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:


That is the dumbest thing I have heard in a long, long time.
If they were paid a decent wage there would be no need for them
At least one person gets the irony of the first statement.
Was it his use of the word "immigrant?"
2010-12-22 08:54:27
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

OrangeHound wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:


I've never encountered an illegal immigrant who was in the system, working under a false identity ... not to say that it doesn't happen or hasn't happened in the past, but I've just not seen it in the last 5 years.   I've encountered many working with an "expired" green card.
I've worked in a lot of restaurants over the years and it's really common. Hell, the Burger King in my hometown was shut down about ten years ago because 13 employees were working under the same social security number. They'd all gone to the same guy for a fake SS card
My guess is that this is kind of hard to do these days ... also, illegals used to be able to get drivers licenses up until a couple of years ago, but I think that it might be near to impossible to do it in 2010.
It's fairly easy to do here.  Then again, NC is a sanctuary state.
2010-12-22 08:54:39
UnkleRukus
That Guy
+236|5038|Massachusetts, USA

Turquoise wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


If they were paid a decent wage there would be no need for them
At least one person gets the irony of the first statement.
Was it his use of the word "immigrant?"
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/53068/trollface.jpg
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
2010-12-22 09:08:52
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

The Census Bureau released a few reports last year talking about how they wanted to include illegals in figures because of the stuff that Orange mentioned.  They saw it as helping states with large illegal populations get more federal funding for the burdens they face.

However, for obvious reasons, the form doesn't ask if you are a citizen or not.  So, the numbers produced by the Census include illegals.  There's no way of knowing exactly how many illegals are included, but there was no attempt to distinguish between citizens and non-citizens.
How do they decide who to send the forms to? Ssn? Property taxes? Voter registration? All would seemingly indicate citizenship. I guess the homeowner could put down illegals as part of the count. But I think they would not want to do that for fear of getting turned in to ice.
As far as I understand it, they took a slightly different approach this time.

Also, they are counting prisoners by where they are kept, not where they are from.
If we could determine this positively then it would go a long way towards determining an accurate count of citizens.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-12-22 09:09:14
Ticia
Member
+73|5337

Turquoise wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

So, I guess the question is...  was it really a good idea to count illegals in the census?
The census is used for more than just voting districts and representation.  It is also used to determine Federal distribution of resources:    where to spend money for schools, housing, health care, job training, economic development and more – more than $400 billion a year by the federal government alone.

Illegal immigrants use schools, health care, highways, libraries, etc.  So, counting illegals immigrants can account for the proportional share of how resources are actually used.
That sends the wrong message though.  By accounting for illegals in budgets, you make it easier for states to ignore this problem rather than encouraging them to solve it.

Until states truly feel the pain of having a large group of people within them that doesn't properly pay for services rendered, the costs just get passed to taxpaying citizens.  The people of states without many illegals shouldn't have to shoulder the burden of states that don't attempt to remove their illegals.
Not if the wrong message is we're insane overhere.

I suppose the question is why would any State bother with fighting illegal immigration in the first place? If by counting them all they get a bigger budget and more electoral votes?

In fact I would go for new road signs in every State
You are entering _______. Illegals are always welcome
2010-12-22 09:11:14
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

That's why people shit out more kids on da welfare.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-12-22 09:14:01
Ticia
Member
+73|5337

Kmar wrote:

That's why people shit out more kids on da welfare.
No, this is why your State doesn't do shit about it
2010-12-22 09:16:50
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

Ticia wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

OrangeHound wrote:


The census is used for more than just voting districts and representation.  It is also used to determine Federal distribution of resources:    where to spend money for schools, housing, health care, job training, economic development and more – more than $400 billion a year by the federal government alone.

Illegal immigrants use schools, health care, highways, libraries, etc.  So, counting illegals immigrants can account for the proportional share of how resources are actually used.
That sends the wrong message though.  By accounting for illegals in budgets, you make it easier for states to ignore this problem rather than encouraging them to solve it.

Until states truly feel the pain of having a large group of people within them that doesn't properly pay for services rendered, the costs just get passed to taxpaying citizens.  The people of states without many illegals shouldn't have to shoulder the burden of states that don't attempt to remove their illegals.
Not if the wrong message is we're insane overhere.

I suppose the question is why would any State bother with fighting illegal immigration in the first place? If by counting them all they get a bigger budget and more electoral votes?

In fact I would go for new road signs in every State
You are entering _______. Illegals are always welcome
Hell, the more I think about it, the more I figure they might as well do that.  Granted, we'll have to end welfare and Social Security before we can do that.
2010-12-22 09:22:35
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

Ticia wrote:

Kmar wrote:

That's why people shit out more kids on da welfare.
No, this is why your State doesn't do shit about it
most welfare programs are paid for by the state.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-12-22 09:25:42
Ticia
Member
+73|5337

Kmar wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Kmar wrote:

That's why people shit out more kids on da welfare.
No, this is why your State doesn't do shit about it
most welfare programs are paid for by the state.
Yes, cause they have the budget for it.
2010-12-22 09:28:47
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

Kmar wrote:

Ticia wrote:

Kmar wrote:

That's why people shit out more kids on da welfare.
No, this is why your State doesn't do shit about it
most welfare programs are paid for by the state.
True, but the current deficits that most states face right now show how much of a problem welfare can be for budgets.
2010-12-22 09:34:42
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Ticia wrote:


No, this is why your State doesn't do shit about it
most welfare programs are paid for by the state.
True, but the current deficits that most states face right now show how much of a problem welfare can be for budgets.
Amongst about a thousand other things. Namely unemployment, a sagging economy, and a decimated housing market. How much does one pay in taxes on a foreclosed home?
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-12-22 09:36:29
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

Kmar wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmar wrote:


most welfare programs are paid for by the state.
True, but the current deficits that most states face right now show how much of a problem welfare can be for budgets.
Amongst about a thousand other things. Namely unemployment, a sagging economy, and a decimated housing market. How much does one pay in taxes on a foreclosed home?
I don't know, but I do know that foreclosures have made this a buyer's market.     That might be one of the only upsides to this recession -- at least for first time buyers like myself.
2010-12-22 09:36:55
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5360|London, England

Turquoise wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Ticia wrote:


No, this is why your State doesn't do shit about it
most welfare programs are paid for by the state.
True, but the current deficits that most states face right now show how much of a problem welfare can be for budgets.
Welfare is a convenient scapegoat, but it is a drop in the bucket for most of the state budgets. They're broke not because of illegals, but because of their unions.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-12-22 09:39:29
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6602|132 and Bush

Turquoise wrote:

Kmar wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


True, but the current deficits that most states face right now show how much of a problem welfare can be for budgets.
Amongst about a thousand other things. Namely unemployment, a sagging economy, and a decimated housing market. How much does one pay in taxes on a foreclosed home?
I don't know, but I do know that foreclosures have made this a buyer's market.     That might be one of the only upsides to this recession -- at least for first time buyers like myself.
the answer is $0. It's been a buyers market since 2007. .. meaning they have the leverage.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2010-12-22 09:40:56
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6407|North Carolina

JohnG@lt wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmar wrote:


most welfare programs are paid for by the state.
True, but the current deficits that most states face right now show how much of a problem welfare can be for budgets.
Welfare is a convenient scapegoat, but it is a drop in the bucket for most of the state budgets. They're broke not because of illegals, but because of their unions.
No argument here..   I don't like the unions either.  I also don't like the tax evasion by corporations or the deals cut by local governments for big business.

Overall, the middle class is getting raped by the rich and poor.
2010-12-22 09:41:29
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5261|foggy bottom

Turquoise wrote:

No argument here...
what a shocker
Tu Stultus Es

 

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