BF2S Forums American Exceptionalism: Truth or Bullshit?

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Sorry, I should mention that "out of concern for our own lives and political interests" is the more believable reason. After Iwo Jima, we weren't too thrilled at the prospect of troop casualties, nor were we enthused at the prospect of potentially splitting the country with the USSR. The strategic bombing campaign is largely overlooked in favor of the nuclear spectacle (however horrid), and a continued assault in such a manner may have had the potential to hurt the country even more. The war was awful and civilians took it in the face.

Whether or not Japan would have actually surrendered in the face of continued strategic bombing, naval blockades and a land invasion really belongs in another thread... or a Harry Turtledove novel.

there, you have just proven everything i said in this thread.

Kmar wrote:

Hunter/Jumper wrote:

Kmar wrote:

That would be true if I carried around personal guilt for what I had no control of .. which I don't. I've read disturbing things in American history .. way more disturbing then whats been posted so far.

for instance ?

For instance what Andrew Jackson did before he was president. It makes the trail of tears look like the Macys thanksgiving day parade.

thanks, apparently I am uninformed on this bit of history ~ let me research this. .  .

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

America's rise from scrabbling former colonies to superpower status in less than 200 years =/= liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, populism and laissez-faire

And you've completely missed the point. What other country has risen to superpower status as quickly? You can't look at anything objectively because you have on "hate America" blinders.

OK, so the Saudi economy has risen more relatively in 50 years than America rose in 200, that means Saudi Arabia is even better than America at promoting liberty, egalitarianism, individualism, populism and laissez-faire?

You're linking things which aren't linked.

No, I'm not. You're NOT linking things that are. Egalitarianism, for one. Populism, for another. Liberty, for another. Laissez-faire, for another. It's not just about the economy, is it?

China has the second largest economy, but they are hardly considered a superpower. Not even a second-tier power yet. Probably a third-tier power at this point. There are a whole host of other countries with smaller economies than China that are considered to be greater powers than them. But China is certainly rising at a faster rate than all others, due primarily to their population base (potential power, if you will).

Dilbert_X wrote:

NEWSFLASH. There's an economic downturn. And it's worldwide. Poverty levels will be up everywhere, brainiac.

And what caused the economic downturn? Individualism and laissez-faire perhaps?

Nope. Economic cycles caused it, exacerbated by partisan politics.

what does your economic status as a world superpower have to do with exceptionalism?

do i really have to post the definition again? 8 pages in and the yanks are still fucking retards

Shahter wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Shahter wrote:

nobody has any moral supperriority in this regard, certrainly not those whos nation was the only one to actaully use nuclear weapons - and on cities full of civilians.

Which opens up a completely different can of worms: that of how many Japanese would have died under continued low-altitude firebombing and a land invasion...

... so you nuked them, just like that - out of consern for their lives. >.<

There's no denying that if obliterating the Japanese was our primary concern, we would have continued to firebomb Japan to the point that the Japanese would not exist today.

The general reasoning behind the nuking of Japan was that it could intimidate what remained of the Japanese resistance into surrendering, while at the same time it showed the USSR our full capabilities.   The Soviets had started to make moves in Europe that implied that they didn't see us as an equally dominating force, and so the revelation that we had a bomb that was far more destructive than any other ever created up to that point was enough to keep them in check briefly.

This approach worked pretty well until our nuclear secrets got leaked.

Uzique wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Tell us how you really feel, Uzique.

i feel very very disappointed that a number of supposedly 'intellectual' and 'philosophic' D&ST readers are incapable of reading one, very easily deciphered paragraph of a book. im furthermore disappointed that you guys that like to consider yourself well-read, erudite, well-thought and well-reasoned haven't even fucking read Tocqueville's 'Democracy in America' in the FIRST fucking place. is that what it means to be a 'smart' thinking person in america nowadays? to read pundit-blogs, watch fox news and 'debate' on internet forums by throwing around your misinformation, miseducation and idiocy in threads you know nothing about?

you americans here sure make a great case for an intelligentsia. fuck me. literally 8 pages and some of you don't grasp the basic precepts of an ALREADY SIMPLE political ideology.

Not all of us are Ivy League geniuses, Uzique.  You'll have to forgive us.

it's absolutely intrinsic to your national identity

and yeah i guess what plato wrote about republic and democracy over 2,000 years ago is pretty irrelevant nowadays, too

and all that bible stuff... really pointless for 99% of modern americans, eh

fuck me you guys are serious idiots. is this the best excuse you can come up with for your total intellectual retardation?

'studying useful stuff'? i'd rather understand how my nation ideologically identifies itself than know how to make a bridge or play a fucking stock market

Turquoise wrote:

Shahter wrote:

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Which opens up a completely different can of worms: that of how many Japanese would have died under continued low-altitude firebombing and a land invasion...

... so you nuked them, just like that - out of consern for their lives. >.<

There's no denying that if obliterating the Japanese was our primary concern, we would have continued to firebomb Japan to the point that the Japanese would not exist today.

The general reasoning behind the nuking of Japan was that it could intimidate what remained of the Japanese resistance into surrendering, while at the same time it showed the USSR our full capabilities.   The Soviets had started to make moves in Europe that implied that they didn't see us as an equally dominating force, and so the revelation that we had a bomb that was far more destructive than any other ever created up to that point was enough to keep them in check briefly.

you haven't read a word i posted in this thread, dude.
let me make it quite plain for you: the very moment you - unnamednewb, yourself, and others who claim usa have any moral superriority over the rest of the world - condoned the use the methods you described above for the purposes mentioned, as soon as you admitted all that stuff, you lost this agrument. usa is just another participant in the endless competition between diferent nations in this world, you are not any different from everybody else. end of story.

Last edited by Shahter (2010-11-16 10:39:41)

Again, exceptionalism isn't unique. It's just exceptional.

Shahter wrote:

there, you have just proven everything i said in this thread.

Eh...

I could always say you've just proven everything unhealthy about bananas, but it wouldn't make much sense.

Shahter wrote:

unnamednewb, yourself, and others who claim usa have any moral superriority over the rest of the world - condoned the use the methods you described above for the purposes mentioned, as soon as you admitted all that stuff, you lost this agrument.

Didn't I just say that self-preservation was the motive of the firebombing and nukes? Japanese lives potentially saved is an aside, but this was WW2. The immediate objective was to win. I can see why the method was taken if it was seen to diminish the nightmarish casualty rate, but I think more Americans regret the subsequent suffering than is widely believed. That's the last time I'm going to address nukes in this thread.

Uzique wrote:

i feel very very disappointed that a number of supposedly 'intellectual' and 'philosophic' D&ST readers are incapable of reading one, very easily deciphered paragraph of a book. im furthermore disappointed that you guys that like to consider yourself well-read, erudite, well-thought and well-reasoned haven't even fucking read Tocqueville's 'Democracy in America' in the FIRST fucking place. is that what it means to be a 'smart' thinking person in america nowadays? to read pundit-blogs, watch fox news and 'debate' on internet forums by throwing around your misinformation, miseducation and idiocy in threads you know nothing about?

you americans here sure make a great case for an intelligentsia. fuck me. literally 8 pages and some of you don't grasp the basic precepts of an ALREADY SIMPLE political ideology.

I can scarcely believe the content of that quote, considering you spend a significant amount of time here calling entire groups of people inferior, bragging about your stellar video game skills and experience and how high brow your reading choices supposedly are.

JG wrote:

I dunno uzique, some of us are busy studying useful stuff. Decyphering what a dead guy wrote two hundred years ago isn't high up on my list right now.

Your constitution is rubbish and irrelevant, I'd tear it up, after all the guy who wrote it is dead.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-11-16 14:42:50)

Dilbert_X wrote:

JG wrote:

I dunno uzique, some of us are busy studying useful stuff. Decyphering what a dead guy wrote two hundred years ago isn't high up on my list right now.

Your constitution is rubbish and irrelevant, I'd tear it up, after all the guy who wrote it is dead.

troll harder

Turquoise wrote:

American Exceptionalism isn't really an argument of morals.

oh, it's not? well, then there's nothing left to discuss.
"american exceptionalism" is piece of phony propaganda.
/thread

Last edited by Shahter (2010-11-16 21:40:28)