at least says German PM Merkel
how would that statement go over in 'the cultural melting pot' that is America?
Last edited by burnzz (2010-10-17 19:22:22)
at least says German PM Merkel
how would that statement go over in 'the cultural melting pot' that is America?
On the one hand, controlling immigration is a good thing. Ideally, you only want to let in people who are educated and speak your predominant language. Keeping out poor immigrants is ideal as well.
That being said... It's a little too late for them to try turning things back now. Turks will eventually be the dominant ethnic group in Germany. They have much larger families on average, and being part of the Schengen Area makes controlling immigration rather difficult.
One of the more disturbing aspects of Merkel's message, however, is this insistence on "Christian" values. Germany has made progress through becoming more secular. While it is true that Islamic immigration can lead to regression towards certain primitive aspects of Islam, clinging to the primitive aspects of Christianity is no better.
That being said... It's a little too late for them to try turning things back now. Turks will eventually be the dominant ethnic group in Germany. They have much larger families on average, and being part of the Schengen Area makes controlling immigration rather difficult.
One of the more disturbing aspects of Merkel's message, however, is this insistence on "Christian" values. Germany has made progress through becoming more secular. While it is true that Islamic immigration can lead to regression towards certain primitive aspects of Islam, clinging to the primitive aspects of Christianity is no better.
Is the US really a melting pot or a collection of racially divided ghettoes?
France has certailnly gone down the ghetto route, not sure about Germany.
France has certailnly gone down the ghetto route, not sure about Germany.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-10-17 19:27:28)
Fuck Israel
It depends on the ethnic group and on the city.Dilbert_X wrote:
Is the US really a melting pot or a collection of racially divided ghettoes?
France has certailnly gone down the ghetto route, not sure about Germany.
There's a certain amount of cultural separatism that results in "Chinatown" areas of larger American cities, for example. On the other hand, the children and grandchildren of immigrants in America will typically assimilate into mainstream society.
There are exceptions though. There are areas of Texas, California, and Florida where assimilation is more or less working the other way around. For example, you really need to know Spanish to get around certain parts of Miami.
Assimilation can often be a 2-way street, and it appears that maybe some of this is happening in Germany.
I was surprised when I first saw the article earlier today. I find it pretty odd for a Euro country to have a political group called the Christian Democratic Union in power.Turquoise wrote:
One of the more disturbing aspects of Merkel's message, however, is this insistence on "Christian" values. Germany has made progress through becoming more secular. While it is true that Islamic immigration can lead to regression towards certain primitive aspects of Islam, clinging to the primitive aspects of Christianity is no better.
Last edited by Macbeth (2010-10-17 19:33:34)
There are religious extremists in Europe just like here. Christian democracy is a concept that applies to many political parties in Europe.Macbeth wrote:
I was surprised when I first saw the article earlier today. I find it pretty odd for a Euro country to have a political group called the Christian Democratic Union.Turquoise wrote:
One of the more disturbing aspects of Merkel's message, however, is this insistence on "Christian" values. Germany has made progress through becoming more secular. While it is true that Islamic immigration can lead to regression towards certain primitive aspects of Islam, clinging to the primitive aspects of Christianity is no better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_democracy
In some ways, it can be analogized with Islamism.
Anyway, in general, it is most certainly a political movement that stifles social progress in Europe.
The christian side of 'christian democracy' has all but faded away.
Not sure why Merkel is reviving it, there must be some votes to be had from the extremists I guess.
Not sure why Merkel is reviving it, there must be some votes to be had from the extremists I guess.
Fuck Israel
what a surprise! barbarians from middle east do not give a fuck about german tradition and have no intention of assimilating... who'd have thought about that, really?
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
Indeed a surprise. Oh wai-.Shahter wrote:
what a surprise! barbarians from middle east do not give a fuck about german tradition and have no intention of assimilating... who'd have thought about that, really?
We haven't been a "melting pot" for decades.burnzz wrote:
http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/7306/germanyw.jpg
at least says German PM Merkel
how would that statement go over in 'the cultural melting pot' that is America?
We're more of a "tossed salad"...and not in a good way.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Troll spotted.Shahter wrote:
what a surprise! barbarians from middle east do not give a fuck about german tradition and have no intention of assimilating... who'd have thought about that, really?
IMO, multicultural society would inevitably fail in Europe, because of strong nationalist trends, and the desire of governments to support them (in certain countries)
Well, I would argue that there would seem to be an agenda among some Christian Democrats and some Social Democrats to censor criticism of Islam so that they can also censor criticism of Christianity.Dilbert_X wrote:
The christian side of 'christian democracy' has all but faded away.
Not sure why Merkel is reviving it, there must be some votes to be had from the extremists I guess.
In Ireland, they already passed a law that bans "blasphemy."
Her party have accused her of not being Conservative enough and I suspect this speech was a result of that. Politics eh?
jord wrote:
Politics eh?
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
lol learning to speak would be a first step.... plus I doubt its gonna change there are over 4 million of them......."That is why I tell them at every opportunity that they should learn German, and speak it fluently and without an accent.
This is coming in a time when three of the four major parties in Germany are losing votes. Since the left part of the political spectrum ist covered by the green party, the conservatives are trying to get new voters from the right wing.
The president of germany recently said that Islam by now is a part of Germany. This resulted in uproar, especially coming from the right wing. They saw an opportunity to get votes by basically saying "islam is bad". Ironically they claim Germany is based on christian and jewish traditions, which is weird, because until a few decades ago Jews were systematically killed here.
What I agree with is that multiculturalism has indeed failed. Yet, this has to do with the meaning of the word here in Germany. The goal was to have people of all cultures living together peacefully, sharing the country. It came different: Many immigrants didn't see a reason to communicate or interfere with people of other cultures - they had all they wanted in their part of town. No need to speak German, no need to change anything else. The problem that came from this is that now the children of these immigrants have no chance to get out of this, which leads to unemployment, poverty and no education. These young people are easily picked on by right wingers, and it's always easier to talk against a given than to change what made it.
On the christian part of the party's name: it was founded quite some time ago in the 18th century if I'm not mistaken. Religion did play a major part then. No one really today thinks the church should have more influence, it's more used to describe the ethical orientation.
The president of germany recently said that Islam by now is a part of Germany. This resulted in uproar, especially coming from the right wing. They saw an opportunity to get votes by basically saying "islam is bad". Ironically they claim Germany is based on christian and jewish traditions, which is weird, because until a few decades ago Jews were systematically killed here.
What I agree with is that multiculturalism has indeed failed. Yet, this has to do with the meaning of the word here in Germany. The goal was to have people of all cultures living together peacefully, sharing the country. It came different: Many immigrants didn't see a reason to communicate or interfere with people of other cultures - they had all they wanted in their part of town. No need to speak German, no need to change anything else. The problem that came from this is that now the children of these immigrants have no chance to get out of this, which leads to unemployment, poverty and no education. These young people are easily picked on by right wingers, and it's always easier to talk against a given than to change what made it.
On the christian part of the party's name: it was founded quite some time ago in the 18th century if I'm not mistaken. Religion did play a major part then. No one really today thinks the church should have more influence, it's more used to describe the ethical orientation.
How does the Christian Democratic Union view homosexuality?mr.hrundi wrote:
This is coming in a time when three of the four major parties in Germany are losing votes. Since the left part of the political spectrum ist covered by the green party, the conservatives are trying to get new voters from the right wing.
The president of germany recently said that Islam by now is a part of Germany. This resulted in uproar, especially coming from the right wing. They saw an opportunity to get votes by basically saying "islam is bad". Ironically they claim Germany is based on christian and jewish traditions, which is weird, because until a few decades ago Jews were systematically killed here.
What I agree with is that multiculturalism has indeed failed. Yet, this has to do with the meaning of the word here in Germany. The goal was to have people of all cultures living together peacefully, sharing the country. It came different: Many immigrants didn't see a reason to communicate or interfere with people of other cultures - they had all they wanted in their part of town. No need to speak German, no need to change anything else. The problem that came from this is that now the children of these immigrants have no chance to get out of this, which leads to unemployment, poverty and no education. These young people are easily picked on by right wingers, and it's always easier to talk against a given than to change what made it.
On the christian part of the party's name: it was founded quite some time ago in the 18th century if I'm not mistaken. Religion did play a major part then. No one really today thinks the church should have more influence, it's more used to describe the ethical orientation.
In Germany gay marriage is more or less legal. Gay couples can live together, take the same name and so on. What's discussed sometimes is if they should get tax breaks like normal marriages do. Yet over the last few years, this discussion hasn't been on the scedule. Apaarently most people are happy wiht how it is. In fact the current German foreign minister is gay and only recently married his partner.
What the userbase thinks might be something different, but there are neither radical pro nor anti gay groups (that have political power).
What the userbase thinks might be something different, but there are neither radical pro nor anti gay groups (that have political power).
I like you. Instead of making blanket 'foreigners are bad' statements you actually looked at the real problem. First generation wants to hold onto their traditions? Fine. The second generation shouldn't be held back by these types and forced to maintain the same traditions which will only lead to them being stuck in the ghetto forever. It's the biggest thing that has held blacks down in America. They're so worried about losing their 'identity and culture' that they've made themselves second class citizens and are weirdly proud of it. They'd rather keep their soul food than 'conform to the white mans world'. Ok, hope you enjoy food stamps.mr.hrundi wrote:
This is coming in a time when three of the four major parties in Germany are losing votes. Since the left part of the political spectrum ist covered by the green party, the conservatives are trying to get new voters from the right wing.
The president of germany recently said that Islam by now is a part of Germany. This resulted in uproar, especially coming from the right wing. They saw an opportunity to get votes by basically saying "islam is bad". Ironically they claim Germany is based on christian and jewish traditions, which is weird, because until a few decades ago Jews were systematically killed here.
What I agree with is that multiculturalism has indeed failed. Yet, this has to do with the meaning of the word here in Germany. The goal was to have people of all cultures living together peacefully, sharing the country. It came different: Many immigrants didn't see a reason to communicate or interfere with people of other cultures - they had all they wanted in their part of town. No need to speak German, no need to change anything else. The problem that came from this is that now the children of these immigrants have no chance to get out of this, which leads to unemployment, poverty and no education. These young people are easily picked on by right wingers, and it's always easier to talk against a given than to change what made it.
On the christian part of the party's name: it was founded quite some time ago in the 18th century if I'm not mistaken. Religion did play a major part then. No one really today thinks the church should have more influence, it's more used to describe the ethical orientation.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
What % of the population would you say Merkel is pandering to with her remarks about "Christian values"? It sounds like most Germans would find this particular tactic offensive.mr.hrundi wrote:
In Germany gay marriage is more or less legal. Gay couples can live together, take the same name and so on. What's discussed sometimes is if they should get tax breaks like normal marriages do. Yet over the last few years, this discussion hasn't been on the scedule. Apaarently most people are happy wiht how it is. In fact the current German foreign minister is gay and only recently married his partner.
What the userbase thinks might be something different, but there are neither radical pro nor anti gay groups (that have political power).
Last edited by Turquoise (2010-10-18 08:58:19)
Why? Most German people still consider themselves to be Lutheran or Catholic... Only 25% don't believe in god.Turquoise wrote:
What % of the population would you say Merkel is pandering to with her remarks about "Christian values"? It sounds like most Germans would find this particular tactic offensive.mr.hrundi wrote:
In Germany gay marriage is more or less legal. Gay couples can live together, take the same name and so on. What's discussed sometimes is if they should get tax breaks like normal marriages do. Yet over the last few years, this discussion hasn't been on the scedule. Apaarently most people are happy wiht how it is. In fact the current German foreign minister is gay and only recently married his partner.
What the userbase thinks might be something different, but there are neither radical pro nor anti gay groups (that have political power).
Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-10-18 09:00:44)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Well, maybe it's just the American context I'm using here, but it seems like whenever that phrase is used in rhetoric here, it's usually accompanied by restricting people's personal rights.JohnG@lt wrote:
Why? Most German people still consider themselves to be Lutheran or Catholic...Turquoise wrote:
What % of the population would you say Merkel is pandering to with her remarks about "Christian values"? It sounds like most Germans would find this particular tactic offensive.mr.hrundi wrote:
In Germany gay marriage is more or less legal. Gay couples can live together, take the same name and so on. What's discussed sometimes is if they should get tax breaks like normal marriages do. Yet over the last few years, this discussion hasn't been on the scedule. Apaarently most people are happy wiht how it is. In fact the current German foreign minister is gay and only recently married his partner.
What the userbase thinks might be something different, but there are neither radical pro nor anti gay groups (that have political power).
Funny, I see the same thing whenever statists pop up on the left too...Turquoise wrote:
Well, maybe it's just the American context I'm using here, but it seems like whenever that phrase is used in rhetoric here, it's usually accompanied by restricting people's personal rights.JohnG@lt wrote:
Why? Most German people still consider themselves to be Lutheran or Catholic...Turquoise wrote:
What % of the population would you say Merkel is pandering to with her remarks about "Christian values"? It sounds like most Germans would find this particular tactic offensive.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I focus on preserving civil rights. Economic policy is another ball game.JohnG@lt wrote:
Funny, I see the same thing whenever statists pop up on the left too...Turquoise wrote:
Well, maybe it's just the American context I'm using here, but it seems like whenever that phrase is used in rhetoric here, it's usually accompanied by restricting people's personal rights.JohnG@lt wrote:
Why? Most German people still consider themselves to be Lutheran or Catholic...
Which is a paradox. If you had your wish and we ended up in a social democracy, minorities and minority views would become irrelevant and at the mercy of the views of the mob.Turquoise wrote:
I focus on preserving civil rights. Economic policy is another ball game.JohnG@lt wrote:
Funny, I see the same thing whenever statists pop up on the left too...Turquoise wrote:
Well, maybe it's just the American context I'm using here, but it seems like whenever that phrase is used in rhetoric here, it's usually accompanied by restricting people's personal rights.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat