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2010-08-29 23:26:47
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5571|London, England
Free speech, free speech for the dumb
Free speech, free speech for the dumb
Free speech, free speech for the dumb
Free fucking speech

Free speech, free speech for the dumb
Free speech, free speech for the dumb
Free speech, free speech for the dumb
Free fucking speech
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-08-29 23:28:07
rdx-fx
...
+955|6804

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

Sounds rather similar to America's arrangement with the current Afghan "government".
I don't see the similarity.

Pretty sure Osama bin Laden is in Pakistan right now, either with the approval of elements of the Pakistani government or ISI, or their intentional ignorance.

Though the depth of thought shown by Iranian political maneuvering could lead me to believe Osama was advising Ahmadamnnutjob's speech writers and strategists..  If I could ignore the major glaring detail that Al-Quaeda and Osama are fundamentalist Arab Sunni, where Iran's political Billy Mayes is on the side of Persian Shia (on the side of the Government, at risk of the people, really).  With that detail in focus, it seems more likely that Osama is a black-ops tool of the Saudi government. (which is also improbable, but less improbable than him working with Iran).

Those are the two major messes in that region that are going to have to be sorted out in the next ten years.

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are no longer the peaceful side of Islam that the West has a chance of working with. Though they are still our allies in name, they are openly playing against us too. 

And, the Iranian people may be getting a little tired of theocratic rule, may become more amenable to an Islamic democracy on peaceful terms with the West, and may be somewhat grateful to the West for taking out one of their two primary Sunni adversaries (Iraq) to the great benefit of the Shia in the region (the majority of the Iraqi non-Kurds, and the majority of the Persians). 

We just handed the region over to the Shia (and, by extention, the Persians/Iranians) by overthrowing the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam's Ba'athist Iraq.  I can imagine the King of Saud throwing up his hands in exasperation, and asking GWB "What in the FUCK did you think you were doing?!!?".

This seems to be a large part of the reason Amadamnnutjob is agitating with his anti-Israeli anti-American rhetoric;  to distract from the Sunni and Shia issues in the region.  Iran just hasn't stabilized the Shia powerbase in the region well enough yet to go toe-to-toe with the Saudi regime.

Edit: And we're historically stuck backing Israel, giving Russia a golden opportunity to build a relationship with the Persian people.  This giving Russia an in into global energy dominance, to counter China's growing energy dependence and near-superpower industrial base.  In other words, we lit the fuse, and while we stand face-first in the blast, the rest of the world gets to enjoy the show.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-08-29 23:33:58)

2010-08-29 23:31:06
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5472|foggy bottom

JohnG@lt wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

someone should do harmor a favor and cut off his internet
Now now, free speech, remember?
thats why they would be doing him a favor by not lettin himself come off as a person with a brain the size of a peanut.  I was sure to write "favor" in there because harmor cant do it himself

Last edited by eleven bravo (2010-08-29 23:31:34)

Tu Stultus Es
2010-08-29 23:39:41
rdx-fx
...
+955|6804

eleven bravo wrote:

thats why they would be doing him a favor by not lettin himself come off as a person with a brain the size of a peanut.  I was sure to write "favor" in there because harmor cant do it himself
Wonderful thing about free speech.  It gives the ignorant the opportunity to learn from their ignorance, and allows the truly moronic to self-identify to serve as a warning to others.

Or, in Sergeant-speak, "There are idiots that don't know, and idiots that won't know, and idiots that can't know. Which flavor of idiot am I dealing with here?"

Though in Harmor's defense, I think it was more of a case of enthusiasm outrunning rational thought.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-08-29 23:42:37)

2010-08-29 23:45:26
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6888|Canberra, AUS
We just handed the region over to the Shia (and, by extention, the Persians/Iranians) by overthrowing the Taliban in Afghanistan and Saddam's Ba'athist Iraq.  I can imagine the King of Saud throwing up his hands in exasperation, and asking GWB "What in the FUCK did you think you were doing?!!?".

This seems to be a large part of the reason Amadamnnutjob is agitating with his anti-Israeli anti-American rhetoric;  to distract from the Sunni and Shia issues in the region.  Iran just hasn't stabilized the Shia powerbase in the region well enough yet to go toe-to-toe with the Saudi regime.
this
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2010-08-30 00:42:29
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6988|Moscow, Russia
this circle jerk you've been having here is almost funny, guys. taliban or not, terrorists or whatever, usa soldiers are and always will be foreign invaders to these people. they won't see you as friends who came there to bring them prosperity and freedom, regardless of what you do. there's only one way to win this war - hirosima-way. it's that or gtfo.

Last edited by Shahter (2010-08-30 00:43:09)

if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-08-30 00:46:02
Little BaBy JESUS
m8
+394|6362|'straya

rdx-fx wrote:

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

Sounds rather similar to America's arrangement with the current Afghan "government".
I don't see the similarity.
So America doesn't fund, train and protect the Afghan govt/military? Thats the only connection I was drawing. OBL supports Taliban, America invades. America support Afghan govt, Taliban creates insurgency.
2010-08-30 00:53:16
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6888|Canberra, AUS

Shahter wrote:

this circle jerk you've been having here is almost funny, guys. taliban or not, terrorists or whatever, usa soldiers are and always will be foreign invaders to these people. they won't see you as friends who came there to bring them prosperity and freedom, regardless of what you do. there's only one way to win this war - hirosima-way. it's that or gtfo.
really? and you get this stuff from...
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2010-08-30 01:06:56
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7023|Nårvei

@Harmor: You must be fucking kidding me, if you are serious in your accusations about this reporter you have just called all war reporters terrorists ...

Also like mentioned there is a clear difference between AQ and Taliban, remember how the Taliban was allies of the US - how come they wasn't terrorists when fighting the Soviets in the 80's?

Would also like to add that the reporter in question was accused by Taliban leaders claiming he was a spy for the US, the local Taliban outfit he was following held him captive for many weeks before he was released ... each incident he was filming was also a direct threat to his own life and he knew the risks very well ...

Propaganda my ass, since when was it ever propaganda to show both sides in a conflict ... what is propaganda Harmor is the BS you get served from your own sources ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2010-08-30 01:07:23
rdx-fx
...
+955|6804

Little BaBy JESUS wrote:

So America doesn't fund, train and protect the Afghan govt/military? Thats the only connection I was drawing. OBL supports Taliban, America invades. America support Afghan govt, Taliban creates insurgency.
In a very limited, specific sense there are similarities.  Comparison could be made between the French Resistance and the Taliban, too.  In both cases, though, the overwhelming differences vastly outweigh any coincidental similarities.

There is a point to which you stay out of your neighbor's business, in the interest of respecting differences or just maintaining the peace.
Past that point, is where your neighbor is doing something so reprehensible that you would feel obligated to speak or act against them.
Where this point is, is fluid.  It varies from person to person, and culture to culture.

To my perspective, the Taliban regime was so far outside the bounds of reasonable human behavior, that any comparison between them and anyone not of a similarly reprehensible demeanor is just above the line of slander.
2010-08-30 01:14:43
rdx-fx
...
+955|6804

Shahter wrote:

this circle jerk you've been having here is almost funny, guys. taliban or not, terrorists or whatever, usa soldiers are and always will be foreign invaders to these people. they won't see you as friends who came there to bring them prosperity and freedom, regardless of what you do. there's only one way to win this war - hirosima-way. it's that or gtfo.
And here we have the Russian perspective.

Curious that their expedition to Afghanistan didn't turn out so well, in light of the very stark this or that perspective he's showing.

There are many other options for Afghanistan, though.
Unfortunately, most of them I can think of involve a level of patience, commitment, and cultural understanding that the majority of the American Politicians and general population simply do not have.
I shat out a wall of text somewhere on here about the same topic. Similar initial premise as Shahter, but with a vastly different analysis and conclusion.

Welcome to the circle jerk, Shahter.  You're late, and you're the one that has to eat the cracker now.

Edit: and current COIN is not the answer.  Sitting around singing Kumbaya, and hoping that eventually we'll get to "they like us, they really really like us!" is not a goddamn plan.

To be perfectly clear on the point, for the Russian's benefit; I agree with what you're saying, except for the conclusion of 'Hiroshima or GTFO'

Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-08-30 01:19:42)

2010-08-30 01:34:34
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6988|Moscow, Russia

rdx-fx wrote:

There are many other options for Afghanistan, though.
Unfortunately, most of them I can think of involve a level of patience, commitment, and cultural understanding that the majority of the American Politicians and general population simply do not have.
gee... well, imo, you could greatly improve your argument by giving an example of how anybody ever won a war by going in circles around the enemy chanting "freedom and democracy", dude.
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-08-30 01:48:02
rdx-fx
...
+955|6804

rdx-fx wrote:

There are many other options for Afghanistan, though.
Unfortunately, most of them I can think of involve a level of patience, commitment, and cultural understanding that the majority of the American Politicians and general population simply do not have.

Shahter wrote:

gee... well, imo, you could greatly improve your argument by giving an example of how anybody ever won a war by going in circles around the enemy chanting "freedom and democracy", dude.
Not the approach I would go with in Afghanistan, for many reasons.

But, I'll give you a list of years instead, where "going in circles around the enemy chanting "freedom and democracy"" essentially seems to have worked.

1215, 1776, 1789, 1989

Here's part of the wall of text, from the previous thread;

RDX-fX wrote:

Perspective:
We would have an infinitely easier time deploying the US military into the ghettos of our own inner cities, and then convincing those predominantly black and latino people to stop hating "whitey".  This would be easier than convincing the middle east that "infidel. apostate. jihad.  those are such mean words.  can't we all just get along?"

There is nothing an American politician could ever think to give the Afghani people that they would appreciate in a lasting way.
They do not think as we do, they do not value as we do, they do not live as we do.
Food, water, health, security, shelter.  Even these fundamentals that all people need, do not mean the same thing to us as to them.
And though our soldiers may try to learn to speak to them, our politicians cannot be bothered to.
Until the politicians understand, nothing lasting will happen.

Soldiers will give their lives, bust their asses, and burn themselves out trying to accomplish a mission that the politicians cannot be bothered to understand how to win. This is the problem.  Until this problem is addressed, there is no 'winning' Afghanistan.

What they need, the American politicans and people have neither the patience nor the attention span to give them;
Peace, security, food, water, medical care, education, technology... none of it means a damn thing, if they know we're going to have forgotten about them 10 years from now.  Their perspective is a tribal memory of thousands of years - ours is about as long as a commercial break on TV.  We say to them "we want to be your friend...", and they hear "We want to be your friend... until we get bored here, and move on, and leave you alone to deal with the enemies we've put you up against as our allies"

American Military is a wonderful friend to have - overwhelming firepower, loyal friends, great medics.
American Politican, however, is a fickle little bitch with the attention span of a moth in a light store, and the ethics & loyalties of a crack addicted pimp.
The Afghanis understand that, no matter how loyal and true the American military might be, we still have to answer to that crack addict pimp in D.C.  That's why they only listen to what we can do for them now, not what pretty ideas we promise them later.  Later, that pimp's gonna have us workin' a different corner.
2010-08-30 02:09:40
rdx-fx
...
+955|6804
Shahter, you want the Plan from DC?

Real simple;  Stable flow of oil from the region, until such time as there are no more accessible energy reserves in the region.  Then they can all go back to fighting each other over sand, religion, and honor.  Meanwhile, we will destabilize here, fund there, militarily intervene yonder, and such as fits our longterm strategic goals.

Giving a damn about the people in the region?
That's for the peasants wearing the American flag on their uniform over there - not for (Self-)important bigshot DC politicians.
Besides, giving a damn about people that aren't your voting constituency?  That's just not something that a politician's little black heart can fathom.

This season, the Shia are the best longterm bet for stability - and the Sunni are the threats.  But, shhhh.. don't tell Saudi Arabia and Pakistan that yet. Oh, right.  nevermind. They're already openly playing against us as often as with us.  Hell, Saudi Arabia is openly giving airspace access to Israel, just hoping that an Israeli-Iranian war will distract the masses from a resurgent Shia population in Iran and Iraq.

Our ally, Saudi Arabia, is angling for an essentially US & Israeli war against Iran.
We are weakened, Israel is weakened, the Wahabbiist Sunni in Saudi Arabia are happy with the War on the Infidels, Iranian Shia are weakened, and the lower caste in Saudi Arabia forgets their plight (for now) under a banner of Islam versus the West - it's a win-win-win-win for the Saudi Arabians...

The way to "Win" in the region, for now, is pretty simple;
Don't fall into the trap.
The Persian people are restless, the Saudi Arabian people are restless.
Destabilize the Iranian regime, without punishing the population.
Then, subtly introduce Shia Iraq to their new best friend Shia Persia, and point them at their chief rival in the region, the Kingdom of Saud.
Stand back, grab some popcorn, and watch the show.

The Sunni are the ones prone to dictatorships and oppressive kingdoms.
The Shia have spent a couple of millenia under the bootheel of those same Sunni governments.
I'm thinking the Shia are a better bet for running governments more prone to living in peace with the west.

Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-08-30 02:17:48)

2010-08-30 02:21:03
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6862

The guy has bigger balls than most journalists. To start with, he runs the constant risk of them deciding they don't like him and holding him for ransom/executing him. And then there's the fact that hanging out with them means that in all likelihood, should they piss off NATO enough they'll just call down a shitstorm of artillery on their heads.

Seriously Harmor, you're pathetic.
2010-08-30 02:33:43
.Sup
be nice
+2,646|6667|The Twilight Zone

Trotskygrad wrote:

Ok yeah, apparently this journalist is fine standing by while US soldiers die.

OK
he doesn't have one of those 007 cameras that has a hidden Javelin inside them. What is he supposed to do, he's just a journalist with a camera.
https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png
2010-08-30 02:47:33
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|5963|شمال
Taliban-behind the masks.

This documentary is approved by Beduin.
Spoiler (highlight to read):
LiveLeak
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2010-08-30 02:51:25
Ultrafunkula
Hector: Ding, ding, ding, ding...
+1,975|6687|6 6 4 oh, I forget

This is almost at the same level as the Illuminati thread.

Kudos to the reporter for not getting his head sliced off being where he was making a piece of news.
2010-08-30 02:54:20
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6929
it would suck if he didnt get a bonus lulz. No disability check for you reporter.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-08-30 02:55:19
rdx-fx
...
+955|6804

Trotskygrad wrote:

Ok yeah, apparently this journalist is fine standing by while US soldiers die.

OK

.Sup wrote:

he doesn't have one of those 007 cameras that has a hidden Javelin inside them. What is he supposed to do, he's just a journalist with a camera.
Perspective.

He is there to let the Taliban show who they are, in their own actions, in their own words.

Just like a few other notable historical regimes, their actions are so outside the bounds of reasonable behavior that you simply have to let them speak for themselves.  Any other way, and reasonable people will claim the story is outrageous propaganda.

In a sense, they are partisans fighting for their beliefs, their way of life, and their government.
Just so happens that their way is an intolerant, misogynistic, genocidal, hypocritical, dictatorial theocracy.
To support such a regime, under the auspices of tolerance, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, or neighborly respect is somewhere between disingenuous, delusional, and demented.

As long as this Norwegian reporter shows the facts, and tells the story without undue spin to it, he is doing a service to posterity.
If, however, he goes the route of Michael Moore, and turns a few facts into an excuse for grandstanding, fiction,  and soap-box preaching, then his contributions are nothing but opportunistic bullshit.
2010-08-30 03:05:59
.Sup
be nice
+2,646|6667|The Twilight Zone

rdx-fx wrote:

Trotskygrad wrote:

Ok yeah, apparently this journalist is fine standing by while US soldiers die.

OK

.Sup wrote:

he doesn't have one of those 007 cameras that has a hidden Javelin inside them. What is he supposed to do, he's just a journalist with a camera.
As long as this Norwegian reporter shows the facts, and tells the story without undue spin to it, he is doing a service to posterity.
If, however, he goes the route of Michael Moore, and turns a few facts into an excuse for grandstanding, fiction,  and soap-box preaching, then his contributions are nothing but opportunistic bullshit.
Agreed
https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png
2010-08-30 03:08:57
Shahter
Zee Ruskie
+295|6988|Moscow, Russia

rdx-fx wrote:

But, I'll give you a list of years instead, where "going in circles around the enemy chanting "freedom and democracy"" essentially seems to have worked.

1215, 1776, 1789, 1989
okay, i can't be bothered to go search for first three dates, but i can tell you for sure - usa had almost zero influence over what happened in 1989, no matter how much you like to pat yourselves on the back. the fact of the matter is ussr had rotten away from within.

as to wall o'text - i mostly agree. i lol'd at

rdx-fx wrote:

American Military is a wonderful friend to have - overwhelming firepower, loyal friends, great medics.
but yeah, you are probably right with the rest. now, whatcha going to do with all the crooks you have there in states, dude? there's nothing you can do to them, because your so called "democracy" is under their complete control.
you wanted capitalism to run wild? - there you go, enjoy.
what happened to the american dream? - it came true, you are looking at it (c).
if you open your mind too much your brain will fall out.
2010-08-30 03:30:43
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|6981
Are they really terrorists?

If someone invaded my country and I fought back that would not make me a terrorist.
2010-08-30 03:42:05
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6929

BN wrote:

Are they really terrorists?

If someone invaded my country and I fought back that would not make me a terrorist.
Only if you set bombs in schools.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2010-08-30 03:42:36
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6888|Canberra, AUS
Whether you want to label them terrorists or not is irrelevant - the crux of the matter is that they are not very nice people.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman

 

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