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Topic closed

2006-05-01 20:44:57
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6843|USA
Honestly, I think the solution is to cut off the benefits that illegals are getting in America. No free lunch, then no reason to come here and maybe the illegals that are here will go back. Taking away the reason for illegal immigration might solve the problem.

Let me reinterate that I have no problem with ANYONE of ANY RACE or NATIONALITY who wants to be an American and assimulate themselves to the American way of life. All I ask is that your first action on our soil is NOT to break our laws by comming here illegally.

The only exception I have to the above statement is Muslims, and that is because this religion goes against the very core of what being an American is all about, as our country was founded and our morality is established by basic Christian beliefs. Our president is sworn in with one hand on the bible not the koran. Our pledge to our country is one nation under God, not one nation under Allah. Our money says In God we trust, not in Allah we trust.  Now I also recognize the hypocrisy in what I just said since freedom of religion is an American right as well, but I am just being honest.  I know all of this is for another thread.

Last edited by lowing (2006-05-01 20:51:01)

2006-05-01 20:45:08
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6835
05-01-06 20:35:48 -1 Pro Illegal Immigration Protest insulting a LEGAL immigrant, calling him a hippocrate for working to become a citizen 






Zapata1982 wrote:

yes i was an illegal when i first entered this country, but i worked my ass of learning the languange, and working from the bottom up, and getting a college education then becoming an American Citizen, fuck that shit was hard
2006-05-02 00:02:01
Zapata1982
Member
+4|6864|Los Angeles, KALIFoooNIaaa
i agree with you Lowin, we give waaaay to many handout to people, which breeds dishonesty. people take advantage of the United States, i see all the time, why reward someone for doing nothing, need money have a kid get more welfare money its that easy, it could solve some of the immigration problem but not all of them, abolish the work and no more incentive for illegals to come here, the welfare system is a joke that needs to be abolished or regulated alot better,
just to clarify what i posted earlier, the demostrations are a joke, i disagree with them, i diagree with the whole spanish anthem, the mexican flag waving thing, what these people need to is stop complaining and if they had put enough effort into becoming an legal resident as they did in these marches they would hhad become american citizens. already..
2006-05-02 00:27:25
BVC
Member
+325|6887
What about giving your illegal immigrants the chance to earn citizenship by way of active military service?  ie. Julio we'll give you citizenship, but first you must serve in Iraq.
2006-05-02 03:05:06
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6843|USA

Pubic wrote:

What about giving your illegal immigrants the chance to earn citizenship by way of active military service?  ie. Julio we'll give you citizenship, but first you must serve in Iraq.
Because they are not interested in becoming an American citizen. If they were wanting citizenship they would persue it but instead hide in the shadows and leech off of the taxpayers.

As a matter of fact I am going to stop referring to them as illegal immigrants and call them what they really are, illegal aliens. Calling them immigrants would imply that they immigrated to America and this is not the case. What they actually are doing is invading America.
2006-05-02 11:31:31
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6950|MA, USA

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

People in power in the U.S. NEED a cheap workforce that can be exploited.  That is the bottom line.  The upper class needs the lower class, because that is how they make their money.  The middle class just acts like a buffer between the two, keeping distance.  We (people of the forums) are generally part of the middle class, and the upper class use us to increase the pressure on illegal immigration.  However, they do not want too much pressure, because then they (the upper class) will see their profit margins drop.  So they bring about half-assed bills and initiatives that sound good to the average citizen, but in reality do nothing to curtail the problem.
This is not about the rich exploiting the poor, this is about everyone needing low wage workers to maintain economic growth.  Everyone's standard of living is improved because there are some people who are willing to work for less than minimum wage (which indicates a larger problem with minimum wage laws - but that is another discussion).  Middle class people don't want to pay $10 for a head of lettuce, so yes, we (the middle class) need them too.  If a worker can earn more money here than in elsewhere, and still be getting less than an American would for the same job, then they benefit as well. 

We can demonize the greedy rich, but if we force them to pay full wage for the labor to ensure that nobody is 'exploited', then the low wage worker isn't hired, the price of goods goes up, sales go down, profits decrease, jobs get eliminated, and the entire economy suffers, from top to bottom.  For a good example of what happens when your labor costs price you out of the market, look at GM.  Largest auto manufacturer in the world, sure, but they are on the verge of bankruptcy because their union labor costs  more than they can generate in profits.  I don't have a problem with workers coming in and taking jobs.  What is NOT acceptable is that the benefits of a taxpayer go to people who pay no taxes - in short, immigration must be legal and documented and taxed.  It simply isn't fair for a non-citizen to have all the benefits of citizenship at no costs to themselves.

I believe a possible solution has been proposed already, which would include a liberal guest worker program, a one time fine for illegals converting to legal from the inside (because we cannot simply reward illegal behavior), mandatory English, and a place at the end of the line for citizenship.  Sounds pretty good to me, and in the long run everyone benefits.

Re: English.  The US doesn't have a national language, but the GOVERNMENT of the US has an official language.  You can't FORCE anyone to learn anything, however, the language of government in this country is ENGLISH; and you CAN say that if you wish to have ANY dealings with our government (to include applications for citizenship, employment, etc.), that you must be able to speak English.  Bi-lingualism does not work.  It fosters animosity and unecessary complexity.  Quebec is bad, Belgium is worse, and I suspect there are some Asian examples which are hardly flattering to the bi-lingual concept as well.  I think that is the one thing we really should stand fast on:  If you come here, you really should learn the language.
2006-05-03 16:51:10
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6843|USA

whittsend wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

People in power in the U.S. NEED a cheap workforce that can be exploited.  That is the bottom line.  The upper class needs the lower class, because that is how they make their money.  The middle class just acts like a buffer between the two, keeping distance.  We (people of the forums) are generally part of the middle class, and the upper class use us to increase the pressure on illegal immigration.  However, they do not want too much pressure, because then they (the upper class) will see their profit margins drop.  So they bring about half-assed bills and initiatives that sound good to the average citizen, but in reality do nothing to curtail the problem.
This is not about the rich exploiting the poor, this is about everyone needing low wage workers to maintain economic growth.  Everyone's standard of living is improved because there are some people who are willing to work for less than minimum wage (which indicates a larger problem with minimum wage laws - but that is another discussion).  Middle class people don't want to pay $10 for a head of lettuce, so yes, we (the middle class) need them too.  If a worker can earn more money here than in elsewhere, and still be getting less than an American would for the same job, then they benefit as well. 

We can demonize the greedy rich, but if we force them to pay full wage for the labor to ensure that nobody is 'exploited', then the low wage worker isn't hired, the price of goods goes up, sales go down, profits decrease, jobs get eliminated, and the entire economy suffers, from top to bottom.  For a good example of what happens when your labor costs price you out of the market, look at GM.  Largest auto manufacturer in the world, sure, but they are on the verge of bankruptcy because their union labor costs  more than they can generate in profits.  I don't have a problem with workers coming in and taking jobs.  What is NOT acceptable is that the benefits of a taxpayer go to people who pay no taxes - in short, immigration must be legal and documented and taxed.  It simply isn't fair for a non-citizen to have all the benefits of citizenship at no costs to themselves.

I believe a possible solution has been proposed already, which would include a liberal guest worker program, a one time fine for illegals converting to legal from the inside (because we cannot simply reward illegal behavior), mandatory English, and a place at the end of the line for citizenship.  Sounds pretty good to me, and in the long run everyone benefits.

Re: English.  The US doesn't have a national language, but the GOVERNMENT of the US has an official language.  You can't FORCE anyone to learn anything, however, the language of government in this country is ENGLISH; and you CAN say that if you wish to have ANY dealings with our government (to include applications for citizenship, employment, etc.), that you must be able to speak English.  Bi-lingualism does not work.  It fosters animosity and unecessary complexity.  Quebec is bad, Belgium is worse, and I suspect there are some Asian examples which are hardly flattering to the bi-lingual concept as well.  I think that is the one thing we really should stand fast on:  If you come here, you really should learn the language.
I disagree, the language of the land is English, and although you can not force anyone to learn it, you sure as hell can refuse recognize any other. That means when dealing with customer service you have 1 choice of language to speak, not 2. On products there is only 1 language printed on it not 2. Business is done in English. DO not come to MY country and tell me English is not the national language.
2006-05-04 05:45:29
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6950|MA, USA

lowing wrote:

I disagree, the language of the land is English, and although you can not force anyone to learn it, you sure as hell can refuse recognize any other. That means when dealing with customer service you have 1 choice of language to speak, not 2. On products there is only 1 language printed on it not 2. Business is done in English. DO not come to MY country and tell me English is not the national language.
Did you read what I wrote?

The United States of America, does not have an official language, but it's government does.  Not having an official language means that YOU can refuse to use another language, but others can choose to do so if they wish.  Because English IS the official language of the Federal government, most government agencies can, and do, refuse to speak Spanish.  States may operate differently, but that is their choice.  You as a voter have the normal influence of a citizen and taxpayer to change that.

If a manufacturer chooses to include another language on their product, that is purely their choice, and why shouldn't it be?  It doesn't hurt anyone if they choose to include a second language on their packaging.  Why do you care what people do in their private business, if their public business is conducted in English?  To say that people shouldn't be allowed to conduct private affairs in whatever language they choose is to overstep your authority, and that of government.
2006-05-04 15:40:38
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6843|USA

whittsend wrote:

lowing wrote:

I disagree, the language of the land is English, and although you can not force anyone to learn it, you sure as hell can refuse recognize any other. That means when dealing with customer service you have 1 choice of language to speak, not 2. On products there is only 1 language printed on it not 2. Business is done in English. DO not come to MY country and tell me English is not the national language.
Did you read what I wrote?

The United States of America, does not have an official language, but it's government does.  Not having an official language means that YOU can refuse to use another language, but others can choose to do so if they wish.  Because English IS the official language of the Federal government, most government agencies can, and do, refuse to speak Spanish.  States may operate differently, but that is their choice.  You as a voter have the normal influence of a citizen and taxpayer to change that.

If a manufacturer chooses to include another language on their product, that is purely their choice, and why shouldn't it be?  It doesn't hurt anyone if they choose to include a second language on their packaging.  Why do you care what people do in their private business, if their public business is conducted in English?  To say that people shouldn't be allowed to conduct private affairs in whatever language they choose is to overstep your authority, and that of government.
Their public business conducted in English??!!.......You been to Miami, Dallas, San Antonio, LA etc recently buddy?
2006-05-04 15:50:11
JohnnyBlanco
Member
+44|6762|England
Tell the guards on the border they get 1000 bucks for every gringo they shoot. Problem solved.
2006-05-04 16:37:28
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6843|USA

JohnnyBlanco wrote:

Tell the guards on the border they get 1000 bucks for every gringo they shoot. Problem solved.
pssssssst................uhhhhhhh WE are the gringos
2006-05-04 17:58:26
ComradeWho
Member
+50|6886|Southern California
lol
nothing like a country that has it's economy centered around paying slave wages to "illegal" immigrants while collecting payroll taxes that will never go to services that will benefit these people... who many of which by the way work in some of the most unsafe and hazardous workplaces in existence (this is possible since "illegal" immigrants are unlikely to report employers to the police)... then having the citizens of the country that exploits the "illegals" demonize the class of people that makes a quality of life that is based around convenience possible.

hey kids i know most of you really don't understand this issue but let me clue you in.  it's an election year - this is what is called a "wedge issue." the whole point of it is just to rile you up and take your attention off of real policy matters.  just like with gay marriage both parties are fractioned and just like with gay marriage the federal government will do nothing about this. why? because deporting or penalizing 12 million people who our economy is dependent on and who have established family ties here is remarkably incompetent - even for our federal government.

what's the problem with illegal immigration?
there is an entire criminal class that preys on illegal immigrants because they are prime targets.  They are unlikely to report crimes and since they lack documentation they usually keep all of their money in their homes or in their wallets.  Criminal organizations such as MS13 live off the backs of illegal immigrants.
employers can also mistreat illegal immigrants for the same reason.  Illegal immigrants are often exposed to hazardous chemicals and situations which citizens would not subject themselves to and likely seek legal recourse if they were.  This leads to vast and unchecked human rights abuses.

while their is a net-economic gain from illegal immigration based on their cheap labor and their contributions to social security (which they will never collect), the States which are affected most by illegal immigration are forced to support the education and healthcare needs of immigrants.  The solution is simply for all other states to pitch in through the federal government rather than simply reaping the benefit of immigration.

Last edited by ComradeWho (2006-05-04 17:59:22)

2006-05-04 18:14:36
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6843|USA

ComradeWho wrote:

lol
nothing like a country that has it's economy centered around paying slave wages to "illegal" immigrants while collecting payroll taxes that will never go to services that will benefit these people... who many of which by the way work in some of the most unsafe and hazardous workplaces in existence (this is possible since "illegal" immigrants are unlikely to report employers to the police)... then having the citizens of the country that exploits the "illegals" demonize the class of people that makes a quality of life that is based around convenience possible.
Excellent point!!!!.........Maybe they should take their asses back where them came from to avoid being "exploited".

Last edited by lowing (2006-05-04 18:15:01)

2006-05-05 06:36:11
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6950|MA, USA

lowing wrote:

Their public business conducted in English??!!.......You been to Miami, Dallas, San Antonio, LA etc recently buddy?
When I say, "public business", that does not mean business conducted in public...you knew that, right?

You should also have noted that I said some states may choose to do otherwise, but the Federal Government does not.

Despite flippant remarks to the contrary, my statement still holds true.

ComradeWho wrote:

nothing like a country that has it's economy centered around paying slave wages to "illegal" immigrants while collecting payroll taxes that will never go to services that will benefit these people...
I think you will find most of them do not pay taxes (their employers aren't anxious to draw the attention), and many of them draw services from the government.

ComradeWho wrote:

hey kids i know most of you really don't understand this issue but let me clue you in.
Your statements do not inspire confidence in your knowledge.

Last edited by whittsend (2006-05-05 06:42:07)

2006-05-05 06:39:11
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6926|California

lowing wrote:

ComradeWho wrote:

lol
nothing like a country that has it's economy centered around paying slave wages to "illegal" immigrants while collecting payroll taxes that will never go to services that will benefit these people... who many of which by the way work in some of the most unsafe and hazardous workplaces in existence (this is possible since "illegal" immigrants are unlikely to report employers to the police)... then having the citizens of the country that exploits the "illegals" demonize the class of people that makes a quality of life that is based around convenience possible.
Excellent point!!!!.........Maybe they should take their asses back where them came from to avoid being "exploited".
Agreed. I am against exploitation.... now get the fuck out.

+1 for making sense.
2006-05-05 07:50:39
NSP-MAXIMUS
Member
+1|6935

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

most the people in the rallies are NOT undocumented, you racist motherfuckers.
Resulting to name calling is not the best way to show your opinion. I would like to know how  wanting people to migrate into our society the proper way makes me racist. Millions of people have been doing this for hundreds of years. Can you not understand the need for this? Calling me a racist for wanting to have lawful entry in this country is just pathetic.
i wasnt showing opinion, i was stating a fact.  And anyone who assumes that the people at the rallies are all illegal immigrants is a racist motherfucker.  If the shoe fits wear it dont try to twist this around.  But Im clearly outnumbered by a large proportion of the population who is not of my skin color in these forums (oh wait we got a 1/8 hispanic guy out here.....lol) so im out.
Not true... I'm from Spain but I recently got my US citizenship and I think this all protest is crap... If you are not a citizen of a country you should not have the right to protests and even less swing your home country flag wile you do it. As my wife puts it: "It should be considered a national invasion and bring in the military (a black Hawk with a nice rubber bullet chain-gun would do just fine(notice the generous rubber bullet part))"

But seriously… there are plenty of legal ways to get in the US and they are there for a reason. I have done it and I have paid all of my taxes. See how it pisses me off that illegal’s don’t have to?

Stop using the RACIST word so lightly. Nobody said they hate Mexicans or any other ethnicity... we are against illegal immigrants no mater were they come from.
If they don’t want to be referred to as criminal they can start by respecting the US law system.
Hint: Immigration laws are “LAWS” in case you didn’t get it.

http://bf2s.com/player/44737986/
2006-05-05 08:00:53
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6835

NSP-MAXIMUS wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Resulting to name calling is not the best way to show your opinion. I would like to know how  wanting people to migrate into our society the proper way makes me racist. Millions of people have been doing this for hundreds of years. Can you not understand the need for this? Calling me a racist for wanting to have lawful entry in this country is just pathetic.
i wasnt showing opinion, i was stating a fact.  And anyone who assumes that the people at the rallies are all illegal immigrants is a racist motherfucker.  If the shoe fits wear it dont try to twist this around.  But Im clearly outnumbered by a large proportion of the population who is not of my skin color in these forums (oh wait we got a 1/8 hispanic guy out here.....lol) so im out.
Not true... I'm from Spain but I recently got my US citizenship and I think this all protest is crap... If you are not a citizen of a country you should not have the right to protests and even less swing your home country flag wile you do it. As my wife puts it: "It should be considered a national invasion and bring in the military (a black Hawk with a nice rubber bullet chain-gun would do just fine(notice the generous rubber bullet part))"

But seriously… there are plenty of legal ways to get in the US and they are there for a reason. I have done it and I have paid all of my taxes. See how it pisses me off that illegal’s don’t have to?

Stop using the RACIST word so lightly. Nobody said they hate Mexicans or any other ethnicity... we are against illegal immigrants no mater were they come from.
If they don’t want to be referred to as criminal they can start by respecting the US law system.
Hint: Immigration laws are “LAWS” in case you didn’t get it.

http://bf2s.com/player/44737986/
im fucking tired of having to point this out a million times read my post again and then again asshole fucking christ almighty, maybe you should read the other things ive written as well.   Honestly, Im sick of it, Im not even gonna respond to this tripe because it has already been addressed over and over.
2006-05-05 08:19:23
NSP-MAXIMUS
Member
+1|6935

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

NSP-MAXIMUS wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:


i wasnt showing opinion, i was stating a fact.  And anyone who assumes that the people at the rallies are all illegal immigrants is a racist motherfucker.  If the shoe fits wear it dont try to twist this around.  But Im clearly outnumbered by a large proportion of the population who is not of my skin color in these forums (oh wait we got a 1/8 hispanic guy out here.....lol) so im out.
Not true... I'm from Spain but I recently got my US citizenship and I think this all protest is crap... If you are not a citizen of a country you should not have the right to protests and even less swing your home country flag wile you do it. As my wife puts it: "It should be considered a national invasion and bring in the military (a black Hawk with a nice rubber bullet chain-gun would do just fine(notice the generous rubber bullet part))"

But seriously… there are plenty of legal ways to get in the US and they are there for a reason. I have done it and I have paid all of my taxes. See how it pisses me off that illegal’s don’t have to?

Stop using the RACIST word so lightly. Nobody said they hate Mexicans or any other ethnicity... we are against illegal immigrants no mater were they come from.
If they don’t want to be referred to as criminal they can start by respecting the US law system.
Hint: Immigration laws are “LAWS” in case you didn’t get it.

http://bf2s.com/player/44737986/
im fucking tired of having to point this out a million times read my post again and then again asshole fucking christ almighty, maybe you should read the other things ive written as well.   Honestly, Im sick of it, Im not even gonna respond to this tripe because it has already been addressed over and over.
I apologize for the personal attack as I now see we do share the same opinions on this. I stand by my immigration opinions though. I'm man enough to apologize for my noobish response and nor reading all your post even after been called names.

So... sorry... I get worked up when I see the word RACIST. I't like a trigger. ;-)

http://bf2s.com/player/44737986/
2006-05-05 08:56:09
2ndLt.Tucker
If you can read this, your already dead
+33|6874|Stillwater, Ok
Everyone is saying that we need illegal immigration for low wage workers.  Wrong, legal immigrants can just as easily take those jobs.  Remember the mid 1800's.  That what happened then, all the immigrants took low paying jobs to work themselves up.  If they need more workers then they would have to increase pay for that job and people would come.

We speak english in the US and that is what I want to hear when being spoken to in my country.  I don't know how many times i have had pissed off Hispanics go off on me for NOT knowing THEIR language.  Sorry but its not my job to know another language in my country.  If I were to go to Germany then I wouldn't expect them to speak English. I would try to speak their language.

My mom's family were immigrants from Germany in the early 1900's.  When they moved here LEGALLY my Great Grandfather forbid german to be spoken inside his house.  He said..."Were Americans now and we will speak our language in this house."  They saved up to get a family farm and turned out to be very prosperous.
If you come to a country conform to it.  Respect their laws, ideals, flag etc.  Do not try to change it into your old country.  If you come here for a better life do it legally and be proud.  I understand having strong ties to your old culture because I very much love Germany still but I am also very proud of my country and my family has shed blood every generation for it.

Finally don't come into the US have kids to get on welfare, then go get a job that doesn't pay taxes so you can continue to stay on welfare.  Its one thing if you are really interested in becoming a citizen, but using our system as an easy out from your country's old problems is bullshit.  The overall damage to contribution the illegals have done to this country is WELL on the negative side.  We pay for them to school, pay them welfare, pay them even ration stamps at times.  All the while they don't pay any taxes.  Start looking at it like that and its amazing the economic impact....and FYI.  The day of the Illegal Marches the DOW went up 10 points....why....because there wasn't the untaxed money going out to pay illegals. It stayed in our economy.
2006-05-05 10:49:12
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6950|MA, USA

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

Everyone is saying that we need illegal immigration for low wage workers.  Wrong, legal immigrants can just as easily take those jobs.  Remember the mid 1800's.  That what happened then, all the immigrants took low paying jobs to work themselves up.  If they need more workers then they would have to increase pay for that job and people would come.
We didn't have the minimum wage requirements in the 1800's that we have now.  I do not support illegal immigrants, but as I said in the other thread, you must be prepared for your standard of living to decline.  The legal workers at the turn of the century made crappy wages, and so do the illegals.  Legal workers get minimum wage, and cost their employers more in the form of payroll taxes, unemployment costs, and sometimes benefits.  Look for goods and services dominated by illegals to double in price if any effective means of controlling them is implemented.  Those costs have a habit of spreading, and costing you lots of money.  Your decreased abilty to afford as many goods and services results in a decreased standard of living for the middle class.
2006-05-05 11:00:37
IronFerret
Member
+48|6848|Mexico City.

NSP-MAXIMUS wrote:

Not true... I'm from Spain but I recently got my US citizenship and I think this all protest is crap... If you are not a citizen of a country you should not have the right to protests and even less swing your home country flag wile you do it. As my wife puts it: "It should be considered a national invasion and bring in the military (a black Hawk with a nice rubber bullet chain-gun would do just fine(notice the generous rubber bullet part))"
.
I always find funny how recent imigrants in US become rigth wing nuts 2 minutes after they get citizenship.. i think its just they want to be accepted.. so they blowjob dicks  of those who rejected them before.  I have see that happend with mexicans, cubans and well lots others...

Let americans defend their position at least most of them are doing it with cleaver arguments than your facist thinking.
2006-05-05 11:09:35
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6927|Salt Lake City

whittsend wrote:

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

Everyone is saying that we need illegal immigration for low wage workers.  Wrong, legal immigrants can just as easily take those jobs.  Remember the mid 1800's.  That what happened then, all the immigrants took low paying jobs to work themselves up.  If they need more workers then they would have to increase pay for that job and people would come.
We didn't have the minimum wage requirements in the 1800's that we have now.  I do not support illegal immigrants, but as I said in the other thread, you must be prepared for your standard of living to decline.  The legal workers at the turn of the century made crappy wages, and so do the illegals.  Legal workers get minimum wage, and cost their employers more in the form of payroll taxes, unemployment costs, and sometimes benefits.  Look for goods and services dominated by illegals to double in price if any effective means of controlling them is implemented.  Those costs have a habit of spreading, and costing you lots of money.  Your decreased abilty to afford as many goods and services results in a decreased standard of living for the middle class.
Is that so.  Do you see any difference in how illegals effect the economy and how Wal-Mart effects the economy? Why not take a look at some Wal-Mart statistics.

Health insurace, and why so many Wal-Mart employees still require tax funded subsidies:

Unaffordable premiums, overly strict eligibility requirements, and major gaps in coverage characterize Wal-Mart's health insurance plan, according to this report.  The annual premium a full-time Wal-Mart employee must pay for coverage for her and her spouse is $2,672 (with a $350 deductible), which amounts to about 19 percent of her pre-tax earnings. Part-time employees (under 34 hours per week) are only eligible to enroll after two years on the job and even then, coverage is available only for themselves, not their families. Full-time workers are eligible for family coverage after six months.  Costly premiums and strict eligibility requirements result in only two in five Wal-Mart employees being covered by the company's health care plan, compared to a national average of 66 percent at large firms. Moreover, unlike nearly all other corporate health insurance plans, Wal-Mart's plan does not cover most basic services, including regular check-ups for adults and children, childhood immunizations, and routine screenings such as prostate exams.
The effects that Wal-Mart has jobs that currently pay living wages:

Prepared for the Orange County Business Council by Dr. Marlon Boarnet of the University of California at Irvine and Dr. Randall Crane of the University of California at Los Angeles, 1999.

    The most useful parts of this study deal with Wal-Mart's impact on wages. The study concluded that, as Wal-Mart builds supercenters in southern California, the company will absorb up to 20 percent of the region's grocery market and cut grocery workers' income by up to $1.4 billion annually. Unionized supermarket workers in southern California make the equivalent of $18.25 an hour in wages and benefits, according to the study, while Wal-Mart employees earn just $9.63 per hour. As Wal-Mart expands in the region, it will replace high-wage jobs with low-wage jobs. It will probably also force unionized supermarket workers to accept substantial wage and benefit cuts to keep their employers competitive. The combined losses are estimated in the range of $500 million to $1.4 billion. The study also compares health insurance benefits at unionized supermarkets and Wal-Mart, and examines the tax and revenue implications of supercenter development.
Poverty rates:

by Stephan Goetz and Hema Swaminathan, Penn State University, October 2004

    The presence of a Wal-Mart store hinders a community's ability to move families out of poverty, according to this study. After controlling for other factors that influence poverty rates, the researchers found that those U.S. counties in which new Wal-Mart stores were built between 1987 and 1998 experienced a significantly smaller reduction in their poverty rates than those counties that did not add new Wal-Mart stores. Overall, the portion of families living in poverty nationwide fell from 13.1 to 10.7 percent between 1989 and 1999.  Counties that gained one Wal-Mart store showed an 8 percent smaller reduction in the poverty rate compared to the national average, while those that gained two Wal-Mart stores experienced a 16 percent smaller reduction in poverty. The researchers offer several explanations for their findings.
The depression of wages and net loss associated with illegal workers doesn't increase people's living level.  Illegals depress wages, and as much as you may not want to admit it, American workers are displaced as a result of this.  These conditions often result in American workers taking jobs making less than they were before, or taking multiple jobs to offset the wages of their previous job.
2006-05-05 11:15:04
golgoj4
Member
+51|6966|North Hollywood

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

most the people in the rallies are NOT undocumented, you racist motherfuckers.
You have any statistical data? And if these people are legal immigrants, whats their beef? We are protecting the integrity of the immigration process so it doesnt become a free for all. I could go on and on and on and on but the simple fact is there is a process and a lot of people think they are above it. Anyone here above the law? Please if so, lemme find out where to apply for that. Oh, and WE are racist but certain immigrant populations think they have an innate right to come here, touting 'it was ours first', whereas someone in a far east socially repressive atmosphere who cant just jump the border and flaunt the law is screwed by the lawbreaker. Hmmm which is worse, place where u get killed for attempting to speak or or for religious reasons? Or a place that you just cant find a job because nobody can figure out how to get the economy started?  My problem is certain people feel 'entitled' to shit when all i've learned my whole life is that u bust your ass to earn something. You dont exit stage left and show up at the next guys place asking for a piece of his pie. Maybe im just nutty but this crap bothers me on so many levels... and dont get me started on how buisness which really runs our govt is behind this problem.

if you are offended, good. If we all thought alike that would be a bigger problem.
2006-05-05 11:24:09
IronFerret
Member
+48|6848|Mexico City.
I have said this thousand times.. no response or what ever:

THE PROBLEM IN LOWER QUALITY LIVE ISNT A INMIGRANT PROBLEM, IT HAS TO BE WITH GLOBALIZATION,  NIKE SNIKERS you bougth now at $80 dolars are made in China or Malasya or whatever(with working conditions that dont respect human rigths), and it cost 2cent... now that snikers where made in US 20 years ago under American Law, Unions and Wage, and i can speak about how militar budget has suck US economy las 30 years but im lassy rigth now and dont wanna include references.... so prety much everithing you use now is made out of US. thats good for rich guys.. but not for Midleclass... and as long as i remember tards like Lou Dobbs acording to him a "midle class paladin hero".. so now he blame dirty ilegal aliens.. yea shure..

so you want control your border fine, you want deal with ilegal inmigration fine. I think you have to.. but, why you have to have stupid morrons like Lou Dobbs doing social tension, anger and xenofobic coments hiding in hypocrecy blaming ilegal aliens for hurt US strengh.. thats just not OK.. just think whats gonna happend seriusly.. send back 7millions mexicans and other 2 (other nations) millions back.. ok do it.. (want to see  how much are you gonna spend do it so).. no its not gonna hapend.. after all a reasonable law will be done, some are gonna stay and some others go, and hopefully inmigration slow down.. but the hurt fellings, anger, fear and social tension will stay.. and lou dobbs its gonna find another "treat" like for example killer bees or bears, but shure he is not finding corporal abuse, or ecology treats.. cos those ones arent that "scary" to middle class  No ONE IS GOING TO WIN NOTHING ABOUT THIS.

Last edited by IronFerret (2006-05-05 11:27:09)

2006-05-05 11:57:47
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6950|MA, USA

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

The depression of wages and net loss associated with illegal workers doesn't increase people's living level.  Illegals depress wages, and as much as you may not want to admit it, American workers are displaced as a result of this.  These conditions often result in American workers taking jobs making less than they were before, or taking multiple jobs to offset the wages of their previous job.
I don't care to discuss Wal-Mart.  It isn't really a subject I care much about.  (Why would anyone waste their time being a Wal-Mart zealot?)

Nevertheless, as I said in the other thread:

whittsend wrote:

By the way, that study is clearly an anti-Wal-Mart piece, and shows nothing.  Use of the words 'may', 'would' and 'possible' are telling.  In any case, you are comparing apples and oranges, as the impact of illegals is pervasive and national, and the impact of the Wal-Marts described is specific and local.
The 'depression of wages' allows the sale of goods and services at lower prices, while increasing profits and expanding business.  If you are able to purchase goods and services at a lower rate, that allows you to purchase other goods and services besides, and increases your standard of living.  If you cannot see this I cannot help you.

As far as jobs 'lost' to Americans goes, this is tripe.  It is common knowledge that the VAST majority of the unemployed in the US remain unemployed for less than a year.  In fact most, for less than 6 months.  Our unemployment rate is generally much lower than other industrialised nations.  This is because we sustain a high level of growth for an advanced industrial economy.  Part of the reason we are able to sustain this level of growth is because we have a large pool of low income laboer: Illegal immigrants.

This is basic economics.  Your wishes to the contrary will not change it.  There isn't much point in continuing the discussion if you continue to insist that cheap labor doesn't increase your standard of living.  That is akin to saying 'black is white.'  All I can do is say that you are wrong, and I'm getting tired of it.

Edit: Once again, I am not supporting illegal immigration.  I am simply pointing out the economic facts of the matter.  I understand that we cannot allow people to undermine the law, but I also understand that upholding the law will cost me something in this case.

Last edited by whittsend (2006-05-05 12:07:05)

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