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2010-08-26 07:26:56
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6481

RDMC wrote:

Uzique wrote:

RDMC wrote:

I think most of you do not have to worry about your car being tracked. Think this mostly applies to high profile criminals or people suspected from terrorist activities.
erm, hello. the legislation (e.g. the patriot act) is written-up and legally worded so as to give a VERY wide definition of 'terrorist'. that was the neocons tactful tampering: introducing political agendas and ambitions to the legislative/judiciary side of government. the patriot act is a decidedly ultra-conservative piece of legislation that seeks only to alienate, criminalize and invade the rights of the US's own citizens. it's kind of like the purposeful open-endedness of the definition of 'combatant' or 'pirate' in relevant war/piracy laws. the people that draft these documents up do so with a very specific and self-aware set of terminologies that can be left to the discretionary doctrine of judicial interpretation in a very... 'open'... way. all it takes is a judge with a right-wing world-view (of which there are many on the US Supreme Court) and the Patriot Act suddenly becomes a VERY imposing and intimidating piece of law.
Right. Didn't understand half of it, but still if you've got nothing to hide, then what is the big deal?
it's the PRINCIPLE. i cannot believe you are so openly and readily accepting the GOVERNMENT invading your privacy EVERY SINGLE DAY for NO justified reason. you are an independent person with rights-- one of those, one of the most important, being a right to your own privacy. that means not letting some government agency or government body daily invade your activities, your background and your available 'data'. a government isn't an infallible, god-like ruler that just autonomously 'works'. a government is made up of equivocally fallible, corruptible, personally inconsistent individuals. i don't want them prying into my own business-- and nor should you. what qualifies them or gives them that right? just because they're the government and they can write their own laws saying so? no. that is wrong. it is undemocratic and completely against the principles of human liberty and freedom. the less the government interferes in my life, on a day-to-day basis, the better. "im not doing anything wrong so it's okay for them to snoop around in my business at all" is a scarily resigning and casual attitude to take to a HUGE invasion of your rights.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-08-26 07:36:50
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6141|North Tonawanda, NY

RDMC wrote:

Right. Didn't understand half of it, but still if you've got nothing to hide, then what is the big deal?
Just your liberty, that's all.  The point is that no one wants the government (or anyone, for that matter) snooping around in their daily business.  That 'if you've got nothing to hide' crap is what erodes your personal freedom and eliminates your way of living your life unharassed.
2010-08-26 07:40:14
RDMC
Enemy Wheelbarrow Spotted..!!
+736|6575|Area 51

SenorToenails wrote:

RDMC wrote:

Right. Didn't understand half of it, but still if you've got nothing to hide, then what is the big deal?
Just your liberty, that's all.  The point is that no one wants the government (or anyone, for that matter) snooping around in their daily business.  That 'if you've got nothing to hide' crap is what erodes your personal freedom and eliminates your way of living your life unharassed.
That is such nonsense. Here in the Netherlands they recently introduced a public transportation chip card. These come in 2 ways, anonymous and personal and every personal card can is tracked and is being tracked. I have to use this chip card everyday when going to school and back and whenever I use any sort of public transportation. And I definitely do not feel like my freedom is being robbed from me and I certainly do not feel harassed.
2010-08-26 07:45:41
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6530|Πάϊ
1984

read it
ƒ³
2010-08-26 07:50:40
tuckergustav
...
+1,590|5924|...

To be perfectly honest, most of us have absolutely nothing to worry about when it comes to having our movement tracked and recorded.  We mostly sit at home, go to work, the store...nothing to hide.  But the point isn't that I have something to hide or not.  The point is...the way the government is set up is through a system of checks and balances.  We, as citizens and voters are a part of that system.  It is our responsibility to speak up and out against and for things that will change that system. 

When I see that the government is coming up with ways to circumvent the system of checks and balances, it makes me uncomfortable.
...
2010-08-26 08:05:52
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6141|North Tonawanda, NY

RDMC wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

RDMC wrote:

Right. Didn't understand half of it, but still if you've got nothing to hide, then what is the big deal?
Just your liberty, that's all.  The point is that no one wants the government (or anyone, for that matter) snooping around in their daily business.  That 'if you've got nothing to hide' crap is what erodes your personal freedom and eliminates your way of living your life unharassed.
That is such nonsense. Here in the Netherlands they recently introduced a public transportation chip card. These come in 2 ways, anonymous and personal and every personal card can is tracked and is being tracked. I have to use this chip card everyday when going to school and back and whenever I use any sort of public transportation. And I definitely do not feel like my freedom is being robbed from me and I certainly do not feel harassed.

RDMC wrote:

Right. Didn't understand half of it, but still if you've got nothing to hide, then what is the big deal?
That's the problem.  Your attitude about it, and the fact that so many other people are willing to sacrifice their freedom and the freedom of others in order to feel safe, be it from terrorists, criminals, boogeyman, whatever. 
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
When you give up your liberty and freedoms to the government, you will soon fear them too.
2010-08-26 08:13:45
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5269|foggy bottom
the "if you aint doing anything wrong so why worry" crowd really astonishes me
Tu Stultus Es
2010-08-26 08:15:12
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6141|North Tonawanda, NY

eleven bravo wrote:

the "if you aint doing anything wrong so why worry" crowd really astonishes me
It's so easy for them to come up with BS reasons for giving up everyone else's liberty.  If I don't need it, clearly you don't either, right? 
2010-08-26 08:19:09
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6660

Uzique wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

OxenBreeder wrote:

Iirc, this is my first D&ST reply, so please be gentle?



I believe as American's, we have a LOT to fear from our Gov't, no doubt about it.

But if you're that paranoid, take a peek under your car from time to time, if you "see" said GPS device, simply remove it. Toss it in the fucking lake/take a sledge hammer to it for all I care... it's not like it couldn't be removed from your car, damn!

All these fuckers are gonna catch me doing, is, my sorry ass going from home, to work. From work, to home....where's the thrill in that?

Has anyone ever stopped to think about how many people would have to be hired to analyze all this "data" that our Gov't supposedly collects on us?

500, or 5,000 people hired to "spy" on us?

Hell, lets say 5,000 are hired, just to read the text messages we Americans send daily. There's no way 5,000 people could handle the text data transmitted by teens alone, on a daily basis in America, let alone spy on where I'm going/where I've been..

Track my cell phone, track my car movements, track my online activities, the list can go on and on.. But it would take MANY millions of people just to analyze the "data" of the American people alone, on a daily basis.

"The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself!!"

Paranoia will destroy ya!
If you have nothing to hide, then why worry, right?  I reject that notion.  It's the principle of the thing, I suppose.  Also, computers can sort through data significantly faster than humans can, but I don't really think the government is spying on all of us.  Like you said, it just wouldn't make sense.

Food for thought--on the Top 500 list of the highest performing supercomputers in the world, there isn't a single NSA entry...I find that kind of interesting!
isn't that because most government/intelligence agencies have their computers hosted over vast 'networks' of computational power? one big super-computer/database in a centralized processing/data capacity is one big target for cyber-terrorism, hackers and foreign nation's own spying efforts. that's just afaik, anyway, living in the shadow of GCHQ...
Possibly, or they just decided they don't want people knowing about it and so keep these things secret.
2010-08-26 08:21:14
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6141|North Tonawanda, NY

ghettoperson wrote:

Possibly, or they just decided they don't want people knowing about it and so keep these things secret.
That is the reason I find it interesting.  As a guy who has worked with large computing clusters before, I just wonder what they have available.
2010-08-26 08:32:39
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6481
government agencies and shit are always 15 years ahead.

the commercial/consumer sector just gets leaked little tidbits, here and there
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-08-26 08:36:25
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6481

oug wrote:

1984

read it
oh jesus christ...

... before or after ive finished the Mr. Men series?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-08-26 08:37:30
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6141|North Tonawanda, NY

Uzique wrote:

government agencies and shit are always 15 years ahead.

the commercial/consumer sector just gets leaked little tidbits, here and there
I've heard that regarding the level of crptographic expertise within the NSA: 15-20 years ahead of the rest of the world.  No one can really know for sure though.

And then they have the ability to do stuff like this:

wiki wrote:

NSA has the ability to file for a patent from the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office under gag order. Unlike normal patents, these are not revealed to the public and do not expire. However, if the Patent Office receives an application for an identical patent from a third party, they will reveal NSA's patent and officially grant it to NSA for the full term on that date.
2010-08-26 09:34:57
OxenBreeder
Member
+46|5776|KTRI
I never meant to come across that it is ok for the gov't to spy on us. IT'S NOT!

Trampling on our liberties as such, IS a HUGE deal to me.

Isn't there like 24 hours of video uploaded every minute to YouTube? That's 34,560 hours, added daily, just to YouTube. That's a hell of a lot of supercomputer(s) to track my/our every movement, just on YouTube alone.

Am I worried about the gov't "bugging" my car? NO!
2010-08-26 09:39:31
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6141|North Tonawanda, NY

OxenBreeder wrote:

I never meant to come across that it is ok for the gov't to spy on us. IT'S NOT!

Trampling on our liberties as such, IS a HUGE deal to me.

Isn't there like 24 hours of video uploaded every minute to YouTube? That's 34,560 hours, added daily, just to YouTube. That's a hell of a lot of supercomputer(s) to track my/our every movement, just on YouTube alone.

Am I worried about the gov't "bugging" my car? NO!
And somehow youtube can scan them all for copyrighted audio...It's hardly an intractable problem.  But I don't think the government is actually doing that.
2010-08-26 09:42:08
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6481

SenorToenails wrote:

OxenBreeder wrote:

I never meant to come across that it is ok for the gov't to spy on us. IT'S NOT!

Trampling on our liberties as such, IS a HUGE deal to me.

Isn't there like 24 hours of video uploaded every minute to YouTube? That's 34,560 hours, added daily, just to YouTube. That's a hell of a lot of supercomputer(s) to track my/our every movement, just on YouTube alone.

Am I worried about the gov't "bugging" my car? NO!
And somehow youtube can scan them all for copyrighted audio...It's hardly an intractable problem.  But I don't think the government is actually doing that.
fy i
there are iphone apps that can hear a song from an external source and identify it... it's not a huge leap to youtube-levels of copyright scanning. they probably have a similar application/system that simply scans the audio-tracks and then checks the identified trackID with the database of known record-companies exerting copyright on youtube. it's not quite as insidious as the government tracking you...
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-08-26 09:45:49
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6141|North Tonawanda, NY

Uzique wrote:

fy i
there are iphone apps that can hear a song from an external source and identify it... it's not a huge leap to youtube-levels of copyright scanning. they probably have a similar application/system that simply scans the audio-tracks and then checks the identified trackID with the database of known record-companies exerting copyright on youtube. it's not quite as insidious as the government tracking you...
Right, and that wasn't the point.  The point was that it's technically possible to sort through all the stuff on youtube, which he brought up as being difficult.  That's all.

And I think those apps are neat, since I really suck at identifying music on the radio!

Last edited by SenorToenails (2010-08-26 09:46:17)

2010-08-26 09:56:44
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6481
those programs are incapable of performing an ulterior political task, though. that was my point. they're just tools that scan the musical composition and characteristics of an audio-track, and then check to see if it matches any copyrighted material. that 'technology' couldnt be used to sort through any 'data', by a government agency, for more insidious ends. no doubt there is technology out there, though... NSA stuff, yet again.

and yeah, those apps are
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-08-26 10:00:46
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6141|North Tonawanda, NY

Uzique wrote:

those programs are incapable of performing an ulterior political task, though. that was my point. they're just tools that scan the musical composition and characteristics of an audio-track, and then check to see if it matches any copyrighted material. that 'technology' couldnt be used to sort through any 'data', by a government agency, for more insidious ends. no doubt there is technology out there, though... NSA stuff, yet again.

and yeah, those apps are
There is no inherent governmental purpose behind searching for copyrighted songs...the point I was making is that computers can and do sort through large amounts of data on a daily basis to search for arbitrary things.  Anyway, I think we agree, and I only succeeded in completely derailing this thread...lol
2010-08-26 10:46:01
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6782|PNW

The only difference between today, the 90's, the 80's, 70's, 60's, 50's and so on is the technology they can assign to black ops. But yeah, go ahead and wrap your car in tinfoil.
2010-08-26 11:30:44
RDMC
Enemy Wheelbarrow Spotted..!!
+736|6575|Area 51

SenorToenails wrote:

RDMC wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

Just your liberty, that's all.  The point is that no one wants the government (or anyone, for that matter) snooping around in their daily business.  That 'if you've got nothing to hide' crap is what erodes your personal freedom and eliminates your way of living your life unharassed.
That is such nonsense. Here in the Netherlands they recently introduced a public transportation chip card. These come in 2 ways, anonymous and personal and every personal card can is tracked and is being tracked. I have to use this chip card everyday when going to school and back and whenever I use any sort of public transportation. And I definitely do not feel like my freedom is being robbed from me and I certainly do not feel harassed.

RDMC wrote:

Right. Didn't understand half of it, but still if you've got nothing to hide, then what is the big deal?
That's the problem.  Your attitude about it, and the fact that so many other people are willing to sacrifice their freedom and the freedom of others in order to feel safe, be it from terrorists, criminals, boogeyman, whatever. 
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
When you give up your liberty and freedoms to the government, you will soon fear them too.
And this is just one thing that I do not understand. How is your freedom compromised? You can still go anywhere you like, do anything you want except now it is stored somewhere on some hard drive.

Might just be me, but I simply do not see how my freedom is 'given away' because the government knows I went up and down Amsterdam today.

Must be some sort of age difference. Or maybe the mentality in the US is different then in the Netherlands, I don't know.

Last edited by RDMC (2010-08-26 11:31:33)

2010-08-26 11:38:25
Uzique
dasein.
+2,865|6481

RDMC wrote:

SenorToenails wrote:

RDMC wrote:


That is such nonsense. Here in the Netherlands they recently introduced a public transportation chip card. These come in 2 ways, anonymous and personal and every personal card can is tracked and is being tracked. I have to use this chip card everyday when going to school and back and whenever I use any sort of public transportation. And I definitely do not feel like my freedom is being robbed from me and I certainly do not feel harassed.

RDMC wrote:

Right. Didn't understand half of it, but still if you've got nothing to hide, then what is the big deal?
That's the problem.  Your attitude about it, and the fact that so many other people are willing to sacrifice their freedom and the freedom of others in order to feel safe, be it from terrorists, criminals, boogeyman, whatever. 
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
When you give up your liberty and freedoms to the government, you will soon fear them too.
And this is just one thing that I do not understand. How is your freedom compromised? You can still go anywhere you like, do anything you want except now it is stored somewhere on some hard drive.

Might just be me, but I simply do not see how my freedom is 'given away' because the government knows I went up and down Amsterdam today.

Must be some sort of age difference. Or maybe the mentality in the US is different then in the Netherlands, I don't know.
part of freedom is privacy. how do you not understand that? so you're not on house-arrest; your PHYSICAL BODY is not detained or 'limited'. the fact that your paper-trail and evidence of what you do choose to do can be accessed by the government is a HUGE infringement on your personal freedom.

so i have the freedom to have a wank on the internet. doesn't mean im cool with the government going through my tissue-bin afterwards for DNA samples and checking my bills to see how much it cost me. get it?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
2010-08-26 11:44:41
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6141|North Tonawanda, NY

RDMC wrote:

And this is just one thing that I do not understand. How is your freedom compromised? You can still go anywhere you like, do anything you want except now it is stored somewhere on some hard drive.

Might just be me, but I simply do not see how my freedom is 'given away' because the government knows I went up and down Amsterdam today.

Must be some sort of age difference. Or maybe the mentality in the US is different then in the Netherlands, I don't know.
Ah, but there is a difference.  You elected to have that card so the government knows where you are going.  The benefit is...you don't have to use it, do you?  If the government secretly GPS's your car, that is different because you don't know about it and they didn't need a warrant to do so.  And people who accept this as protection from criminals are giving up their freedom.  That should be obvious.

And I'm railing against your chip-cards for transportation.  I use EZPass in NY here, which automates toll paying for me, so when I use it, I know my movements are being tracked.  If I don't want to use it, I can wait and pay tolls manually like lots of other people do.  It's a system I elect to be a part of, much like the chip-card (which you said has an anonymous variant), right?
2010-08-26 11:46:04
Peter
Super Awesome Member
+494|6412|dm_maidenhead
You have a bin just for tissues? Must be a lot of wanking

I don't see how anyone can be ok with something like this. Oh wait, yeah, the terrorists will get us if we don't.
2010-08-26 12:02:18
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6660

Looks like someones decided to capitalise on paranoid idiots.

http://gizmodo.com/5622807/how-to-stop- … r-location

 

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