SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6101|North Tonawanda, NY

jord wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:


And to you, it's a cartoon.

The distance is trivial.  It's bad form, dirty pool to build a community center that close.
Yes, but what is more important? The Constitution, or what some angry mob of people wants?
Are either particularly important in the grand scheme of things?
In the 'grand scheme of things'?  What is that, exactly?  If you look far enough into the future, nothing really matters then, right? 

Of course, if I had to pick which idea were more important--the fickle will of a mob or the constitution, I would pick the latter without a doubt.
jord
Member
+2,382|6649|The North, beyond the wall.

mafia996630 wrote:

jord wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:


Stop trolling jord.
Ironic irony.
Are either particularly important in the grand scheme of things ?
funny shit.
That's like 1 of 5 posts here I've played devils advacote in a semi troll esque manner.

If you're not ranting about the new world order working with the illuminati to control everyone, you're arguing the palastinian/muslim/arab side with a gross bias with no logic.
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6734|d

jord wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

jord wrote:


Ironic irony.
Are either particularly important in the grand scheme of things ?
funny shit.
That's like 1 of 5 posts here I've played devils advacote in a semi troll esque manner.

If you're not ranting about the new world order working with the illuminati to control everyone, you're arguing the palastinian/muslim/arab side with a gross bias with no logic.
1st. That is not what you call "playing the devil's advocate".

2nd. Admit that was a bad post and move on, or just move on.

3rd. I'm 60 percent logic baby!

Not gone be silly enough to get in a Tit for tat match with you, any time soon.
jord
Member
+2,382|6649|The North, beyond the wall.

mafia996630 wrote:

jord wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

jord wrote:

Ironic irony.
funny shit.
That's like 1 of 5 posts here I've played devils advacote in a semi troll esque manner.

If you're not ranting about the new world order working with the illuminati to control everyone, you're arguing the palastinian/muslim/arab side with a gross bias with no logic.
1st. That is not what you call "playing the devil's advocate".

2nd. Admit that was a bad post and move on, or just move on.

3rd. I'm 60 percent logic baby!

Not gone be silly enough to get in a Tit for tat match with you, any time soon.
Let me know when soon has passed, you're due an ousting.
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|5721|شمال
ahh.. right wing loons at it again!
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
13rin
Member
+977|6450
Trying to turn a cartoon into a map?  Fail.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6734|d

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Trying to turn a cartoon into a map?  Fail.
o please, give it a rest. Its just to prove a point.
13rin
Member
+977|6450

mafia996630 wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Trying to turn a cartoon into a map?  Fail.
o please, give it a rest. Its just to prove a point.
NEVER!  It proves you are basing your argument on a cartoon.

Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2010-08-24 12:59:28)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|6734|d

DBBrinson1 wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:


Trying to turn a cartoon into a map?  Fail.
o please, give it a rest. Its just to prove a point.
NEVER!  It proves you are basing your argument on a cartoon.
haha, that cartoon illustrates a point/statement. Just like the cartoon below illustrates a point/statement

https://www.joe-ks.com/archives_apr2006/EvolutionOfMan.jpg

Need i say more.
mikkel
Member
+383|6572

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Trying to turn a cartoon into a map?  Fail.
Address the post you're replying to. You criticise the cartoon, saying "Stupid, inaccurate cartoon to be honest.  For fucks sake look at a map instead of a cartoon for facts. It as fucking ground zero as it gets."

Does the cartoon suggest at any point that the mosque is outside of "ground zero?"
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|5721|شمال
Taking Bin Laden’s Side

Is there any doubt about Osama bin Laden’s position on the not-at-ground-zero mosque?

...It’s striking that many American Republicans share with Al Qaeda the view that the West and the Islamic world are caught inevitably in a “clash of civilizations.” Anwar al-Awlaki, the American-born cleric who recruits jihadis from his lair in Yemen, tells the world’s English-speaking Muslims that America is at war against Islam. You can bet that Mr. Awlaki will use the opposition to the community center and mosque to try to recruit more terrorists...

...The second misconception underlying this debate is that Islam is an inherently war-like religion that drives believers to terrorism. Sure, the Islamic world is disproportionately turbulent, and mullahs sometimes cite the Koran to incite murder. But don’t forget that the worst brutality in the Middle East has often been committed by more secular rulers, like Saddam Hussein and Hafez al-Assad. And the mastermind of the 1970 Palestinian airline hijackings, George Habash, was a Christian.

Remember also that historically, some of the most shocking brutality in the region was justified by the Bible, not the Koran. Crusaders massacred so many men, women and children in parts of Jerusalem that a Christian chronicler, Fulcher of Chartres, described an area ankle-deep in blood. While burning Jews alive, the crusaders sang, “Christ, We Adore Thee.”

My hunch is that the violence in the Islamic world has less to do with the Koran or Islam than with culture, youth bulges in the population, and the marginalization of women. In Pakistan, I know a young woman whose brothers want to kill her for honor — but her family is Christian, not Muslim.
Read more
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526
This is quite a bizarre controversy for outsiders looking in. The constitution of the US being poo-pooed by some on a single-issue - an Islamic cultural centre that is not, as stated in certain media outlets, on the site of ground zero. Truly bizarre. Almost as bizarre as believing that Barack Obama is Muslim.

Here's a binary argument for the binary minded hard right (a classic ruse of the hard right): Either you believe in freedom of religion or you don't. Your call.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2010-08-24 13:23:33)

13rin
Member
+977|6450

mafia996630 wrote:

haha, that cartoon illustrates a point/statement. Just like the cartoon below illustrates a point/statement

http://www.joe-ks.com/archives_apr2006/ … nOfMan.jpg

Need i say more.
Yea.  Stay on topic.  That cartoon is about as relevant as the other one.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
13rin
Member
+977|6450

CameronPoe wrote:

This is quite a bizarre controversy for outsiders looking in. The constitution of the US being poo-pooed by some on a single-issue - an Islamic cultural centre that is not, as stated in certain media outlets, on the site of ground zero. Truly bizarre.
HEY CAM!!!
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
.Sup
be nice
+2,646|6424|The Twilight Zone

CameronPoe wrote:

Almost as bizarre as believing that Barack Obama is Muslim.
Supposedly a third of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim (if I haven't misread).
https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png
mtb0minime
minimember
+2,418|6625

.Sup wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Almost as bizarre as believing that Barack Obama is Muslim.
Supposedly a third of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim (if I haven't misread).
1/5, 20%. Which is still absurdly high.
.Sup
be nice
+2,646|6424|The Twilight Zone

mtb0minime wrote:

.Sup wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Almost as bizarre as believing that Barack Obama is Muslim.
Supposedly a third of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim (if I haven't misread).
1/5, 20%. Which is still absurdly high.
Thanks for the correction. Question: if he was Muslim he wouldn't be able to be president correct? Or he just needs to be born on US soil disregarding religion?
https://www.shrani.si/f/3H/7h/45GTw71U/untitled-1.png
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6439

mtb0minime wrote:

.Sup wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Almost as bizarre as believing that Barack Obama is Muslim.
Supposedly a third of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim (if I haven't misread).
1/5, 20%. Which is still absurdly high.
It was 11% in 2009.
mtb0minime
minimember
+2,418|6625

.Sup wrote:

mtb0minime wrote:

.Sup wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Almost as bizarre as believing that Barack Obama is Muslim.
Supposedly a third of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim (if I haven't misread).
1/5, 20%. Which is still absurdly high.
Thanks for the correction. Question: if he was Muslim he wouldn't be able to be president correct? Or he just needs to be born on US soil disregarding religion?
Can still be President regardless of religion, but he does need to be born on US soil. However, at this point, it'd be nearly impossible for a Muslim to be elected President; shouldn't be surprising, as evidenced by the very topic this thread is about.

Doctor Strangelove wrote:

mtb0minime wrote:

.Sup wrote:


Supposedly a third of Americans believe Obama is a Muslim (if I haven't misread).
1/5, 20%. Which is still absurdly high.
It was 11% in 2009.
Unfortunately I don't have any sources to back up that stat at the moment, but I recall hearing and reading the 1-in-5 in the news a lot lately.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6571|132 and Bush

CameronPoe wrote:

This is quite a bizarre controversy for outsiders looking in. The constitution of the US being poo-pooed by some on a single-issue - an Islamic cultural centre that is not, as stated in certain media outlets, on the site of ground zero. Truly bizarre. Almost as bizarre as believing that Barack Obama is Muslim.

Here's a binary argument for the binary minded hard right (a classic ruse of the hard right): Either you believe in freedom of religion or you don't. Your call.
Freedom of religion is a false argument here. People are not claiming that the Mosque should not be built (legally). The oppositions position is that of, just because you can, should you? The irony is that the proposed mission of the Islamic center is to promote tolerance. I can think of no better way to do this than moving the Mosque/Center down the road.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
mikkel
Member
+383|6572

Kmar wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

This is quite a bizarre controversy for outsiders looking in. The constitution of the US being poo-pooed by some on a single-issue - an Islamic cultural centre that is not, as stated in certain media outlets, on the site of ground zero. Truly bizarre. Almost as bizarre as believing that Barack Obama is Muslim.

Here's a binary argument for the binary minded hard right (a classic ruse of the hard right): Either you believe in freedom of religion or you don't. Your call.
Freedom of religion is a false argument here. People are not claiming that the Mosque should not be built (legally). The oppositions position is that of, just because you can, should you? The irony is that the proposed mission of the Islamic center is to promote tolerance. I can think of no better way to do this than moving the Mosque/Center down the road.
Tolerance is a false argument here. People are claiming that the mosque should not be built for many different reason (yes, some are also arguing that it should be prohibited entirely,) but common to almost all of them is that they're founded in a sense of guilt by association, and that association just so happens to be a religion shared by over a billion separate individuals. Folding to the people adhering to this absurd notion has nothing to do with tolerance, and would amount to nothing more than, to use a tainted word, appeasing individuals who direct their anger in the wrong directions. To make concessions in support of that kind of behaviour is patently ridiculous.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6571|132 and Bush

You see the difference in "false arguments" is that someone on one side is actually claiming one of them. When I say "people" I mean credible people. People with an actual say or who are directly involved in it's construction. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf for example.

Consideration of of what people want is absolutely about tolerance. You can't force people to be tolerant. It will give you the opposite result when you try. Resentment. Respect is not patently ridiculous.

However, it's nice to see that the evil word "appeasement" isn't limited to neo-cons.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6526

Kmar wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

This is quite a bizarre controversy for outsiders looking in. The constitution of the US being poo-pooed by some on a single-issue - an Islamic cultural centre that is not, as stated in certain media outlets, on the site of ground zero. Truly bizarre. Almost as bizarre as believing that Barack Obama is Muslim.

Here's a binary argument for the binary minded hard right (a classic ruse of the hard right): Either you believe in freedom of religion or you don't. Your call.
Freedom of religion is a false argument here. People are not claiming that the Mosque should not be built (legally). The oppositions position is that of, just because you can, should you? The irony is that the proposed mission of the Islamic center is to promote tolerance. I can think of no better way to do this than moving the Mosque/Center down the road.
The opposition are fully entitled to that opinion. Can you specify exactly how far away from the proposed location would be acceptable, if the planners of the mosque were prepared to heed this vocal group? I guess I find it hard that such a tolerant society would be so broad-brush and reactionary to be enraged by such a thing, given that it isn't Islam that is attacking America, it's Al Qaeda. They are not the same.

In less tolerant societies such as those in the middle east can we expect them to follow the example potentially set by America: have groups seek the eradication or prohibition of all American business from their lands (or at least out of plain sight) for their political and military interventions in their region and their unflinching support for the state of Israel, a state that displaced hundreds of thousands of Muslims from their homes? I'm sure they probably do protest McDonalds and Starbucks (as icons of the American empire) and the like in some places because of the blood and trouble America have caused them, but tbh that isn't really an example I'd be interested in following. 'Freedom is our weapon' (stupid catchphrase but essentially 'Lead by example'). I just find the opposition argument on the mosque inane. Fair enough they have the right to make their point but where does it stop - anytime anyone wants to build a mosque anywhere in America should we expect a protest or plea for a relocation because it lies close to the family home of some fallen soldier? Should there be a committee for the appropriate location of Muslim buildings? I just think this would be a bad precedent to set for historically impressive American 'lead by example' tolerance. This whole thing is media-generated hype reaching fever pitch among those with whom the message resonates (and perhaps a few floaters) in the run up to mid-terms, in my opinion. And just as my opinion isn't really that relevant on a great many things, including this, I don't see how this issue affects anyone other than the residents of lower Manhattan and perhaps those who lost loved ones on 9/11 and that are emotionally charged on this issue as a consequence. I don't know why the opinion of someone in say Boise, Idaho, would be any more or less relevant than my opinion on this (i.e., not very).

One other thing I find odd: I'm guessing (very possibly incorrectly) that the opposition is majority right wing/republican. I'm guessing the majority of right wingers/republicans hold strong religious convictions (generally Christian). Doesn't Christianity preach forgive and forget and love thy neighbour (whosoever they may be)? Too many contradictions.

Also, not to be pedantic, but some of the opposition are of the 'Stop the Islamisation of America', 'Don't allow the mosque to be built at all' persuasion (hopefully and probably a very small minority).

Last edited by CameronPoe (2010-08-24 16:42:03)

13rin
Member
+977|6450

Kmar wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

This is quite a bizarre controversy for outsiders looking in. The constitution of the US being poo-pooed by some on a single-issue - an Islamic cultural centre that is not, as stated in certain media outlets, on the site of ground zero. Truly bizarre. Almost as bizarre as believing that Barack Obama is Muslim.

Here's a binary argument for the binary minded hard right (a classic ruse of the hard right): Either you believe in freedom of religion or you don't. Your call.
Freedom of religion is a false argument here. People are not claiming that the Mosque should not be built (legally). The oppositions position is that of, just because you can, should you? The irony is that the proposed mission of the Islamic center is to promote tolerance. I can think of no better way to do this than moving the Mosque/Center down the road.
Trying to frame this debate as a black and white issue like the others here today reminds me of how many lefties here attempt to paint lowing's views.  This mosque er'  "community center" is being proposed by an individual that's CAIR/HAMAS linked.  He's off promoting "bridge building"; in essence a state funded vacation to the fucking middle east. If I was building that shit and truly a 'bridge builder' -I'd be making an effort to outreach to the community in NYC instead of his own following.  But no.... This guy refuses to meet with the top local.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5329|London, England

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Kmar wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

This is quite a bizarre controversy for outsiders looking in. The constitution of the US being poo-pooed by some on a single-issue - an Islamic cultural centre that is not, as stated in certain media outlets, on the site of ground zero. Truly bizarre. Almost as bizarre as believing that Barack Obama is Muslim.

Here's a binary argument for the binary minded hard right (a classic ruse of the hard right): Either you believe in freedom of religion or you don't. Your call.
Freedom of religion is a false argument here. People are not claiming that the Mosque should not be built (legally). The oppositions position is that of, just because you can, should you? The irony is that the proposed mission of the Islamic center is to promote tolerance. I can think of no better way to do this than moving the Mosque/Center down the road.
Trying to frame this debate as a black and white issue like the others here today reminds me of how many lefties here attempt to paint lowing's views.  This mosque er'  "community center" is being proposed by an individual that's CAIR/HAMAS linked.  He's off promoting "bridge building"; in essence a state funded vacation to the fucking middle east. If I was building that shit and truly a 'bridge builder' -I'd be making an effort to outreach to the community in NYC instead of his own following.  But no.... This guy refuses to meet with the top local.
A Jew who openly supports Israel both politically and monetarily? I wonder why he won't meet him.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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