Tell me more plz turq... how so?Turquoise wrote:
religion because it's generally an institution that holds back social progress -- especially Islam.
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
It depends on one's definition of social progress. He probably talks about social progress being gay rights, womens rights and stuff like that, you probably see social progress as everyone submitting to the will of allah and being righteous and all that. From a modern liberal western point of view it's not hard to see how religion can hold back social progress, but like I said, depends on what someone thinks social progress really is.Beduin wrote:
Tell me more plz turq... how so?Turquoise wrote:
religion because it's generally an institution that holds back social progress -- especially Islam.
Last edited by Mekstizzle (2010-08-13 05:45:10)
It's mostly what Mek said, but another notable thing is allowing people to convert out of Islam without fear of being killed. While ex-Muslims have no fear of this in the West, they do have this fear in a lot of the Middle East and South Asia.Beduin wrote:
Tell me more plz turq... how so?Turquoise wrote:
religion because it's generally an institution that holds back social progress -- especially Islam.
Any law system that punishes apostasy with death is not progressive at all.
Progress in general*, medicine was held back and science is being held back.
Islam teaches that homosexual acts are sinful and punishable by God. Not different from Judaism and Christianity.
Women rights? Explain please...
And yeah, ex-muslims get paid very well here in the west..
Women rights? Explain please...
And yeah, ex-muslims get paid very well here in the west..
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
I met a lot of gay iraqis. im convinced every single barber in the middle east is gay. they love to jam their nuts on your elbow when theyre cutting your hair.
Tu Stultus Es
Well, concerning gays, I specifically mentioned that a lot of religions have axes to grind against them (if you'll pardon the metaphor). So no, I'm not saying Islam is the only faith at fault there.Beduin wrote:
Islam teaches that homosexual acts are sinful and punishable by God. Not different from Judaism and Christianity.
Women rights? Explain please...
And yeah, ex-muslims get paid very well here in the west..
As for women's rights, the hijab and burka are pre-Islamic practices incorporated into Islam that hold back the equality of women. The excuse is often given that it's a show of respect to Allah, but that's nothing more than an outdated belief started by male chauvinistic cultures.
Last edited by Turquoise (2010-08-13 09:15:08)
I have met women with hijab that are much stronger than 50% of the men I know... What is your pooint?Turquoise wrote:
As for women's rights, the hijab
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
My point is that the only reasons they wear them are:Beduin wrote:
I have met women with hijab that are much stronger than 50% of the men I know... What is your pooint?Turquoise wrote:
As for women's rights, the hijab
1) they've been brainwashed by their religion to think it pleases some invisible being
and/or
2) they fear the social and physical abuse they would be subjected to if they didn't wear it
It's an extremely outdated practice that helps to justify sexism.
Granted, I'm not saying it should be banned. I just refuse to condone it, because I'm aware of the social contexts surrounding it. Plenty of women in the Islamic World have fought for the right to not have to wear it, and the ones who still choose to wear it are a sad reminder of how far we still have to go.
You do know that about 100 years ago it was considered indecent for women to show any skin at all right here in America, right? Times change. I don't think it's necessarily sexist to want your wife or daughter to cover up rather than go down to South Beach and lay out with nothing more than a g-string bottom covering them up.Turquoise wrote:
My point is that the only reasons they wear them are:Beduin wrote:
I have met women with hijab that are much stronger than 50% of the men I know... What is your pooint?Turquoise wrote:
As for women's rights, the hijab
1) they've been brainwashed by their religion to think it pleases some invisible being
and/or
2) they fear the social and physical abuse they would be subjected to if they didn't wear it
It's an extremely outdated practice that helps to justify sexism.
Granted, I'm not saying it should be banned. I just refuse to condone it, because I'm aware of the social contexts surrounding it. Plenty of women in the Islamic World have fought for the right to not have to wear it, and the ones who still choose to wear it are a sad reminder of how far we still have to go.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
You have not met or talked to women with hijab!Turquoise wrote:
My point is that the only reasons they wear them are:Beduin wrote:
I have met women with hijab that are much stronger than 50% of the men I know... What is your pooint?Turquoise wrote:
As for women's rights, the hijab
1) they've been brainwashed by their religion to think it pleases some invisible being
and/or
2) they fear the social and physical abuse they would be subjected to if they didn't wear it
It's an extremely outdated practice that helps to justify sexism.
Granted, I'm not saying it should be banned. I just refuse to condone it, because I'm aware of the social contexts surrounding it. Plenty of women in the Islamic World have fought for the right to not have to wear it, and the ones who still choose to wear it are a sad reminder of how far we still have to go.
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
Yep, and we evolved past that, didn't we? It's time for the rest of the world to catch up.JohnG@lt wrote:
You do know that about 100 years ago it was considered indecent for women to show any skin at all right here in America, right?
There's a big difference between that and a hijab. For starters, there's usually no religious justification.JohnG@lt wrote:
Times change. I don't think it's necessarily sexist to want your wife or daughter to cover up rather than go down to South Beach and lay out with nothing more than a g-string bottom covering them up.
So even if a woman wants to wear it;she must be brainwashed ?Turquoise wrote:
My point is that the only reasons they wear them are:Beduin wrote:
I have met women with hijab that are much stronger than 50% of the men I know... What is your pooint?Turquoise wrote:
As for women's rights, the hijab
1) they've been brainwashed by their religion to think it pleases some invisible being
and/or
2) they fear the social and physical abuse they would be subjected to if they didn't wear it
It's an extremely outdated practice that helps to justify sexism.
Granted, I'm not saying it should be banned. I just refuse to condone it, because I'm aware of the social contexts surrounding it. Plenty of women in the Islamic World have fought for the right to not have to wear it, and the ones who still choose to wear it are a sad reminder of how far we still have to go.
You have not met or talked to women with hijab!
a minaret with a beat.
May be they can perform gay muslim marriages too... right after the christians get over their phobias...
anyone up for a gay bar catering to mormons? presbyterians? south baptists? etc etc
May be they can perform gay muslim marriages too... right after the christians get over their phobias...
anyone up for a gay bar catering to mormons? presbyterians? south baptists? etc etc
There's not always religious justification for wearing the hijab. I've known rather liberal muslim women in NYC who've decided to wear it to connect with their culture. There are also about a million Indian women here wearing burkas, dot on forehead and all, and I don't hear anyone complaining about that.Turquoise wrote:
Yep, and we evolved past that, didn't we? It's time for the rest of the world to catch up.JohnG@lt wrote:
You do know that about 100 years ago it was considered indecent for women to show any skin at all right here in America, right?There's a big difference between that and a hijab. For starters, there's usually no religious justification.JohnG@lt wrote:
Times change. I don't think it's necessarily sexist to want your wife or daughter to cover up rather than go down to South Beach and lay out with nothing more than a g-string bottom covering them up.
Worry about your own shit, and less about what other people wear. I've honestly never understood what the big fucking deal is except that it's a few less women in the world for horny men to oggle in public.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Well, if we're being technical, any follower of a religion is brainwashed to an extent. We're all born atheists. In the vast majority of cases, you have to be convinced by your family that a deity exists.mafia996630 wrote:
So even if a woman wants to wear it;she must be brainwashed ?
If you're raised with a religion, you're much more likely to continue believing in a deity or deities than you are to reject these beliefs because of the social pressure to do so. Along with this comes customs like wearing the hijab, and throughout many cultures, the hijab is basically a more blatant representation of sexism. Women are forced to cover up, while men aren't.
In the West, Muslim women are freer to decide between wearing it and not, but the ones who still do are just following traditions that have been pushed on them through multiple generations.
But hey, I'm not saying that Islam is the only faith guilty of sexism. We see it in other faiths as well -- like the forbidding of female priests in Catholicism.
Religion in general holds back all sorts of social progress.
Fair enough.JohnG@lt wrote:
There's not always religious justification for wearing the hijab. I've known rather liberal muslim women in NYC who've decided to wear it to connect with their culture. There are also about a million Indian women here wearing burkas, dot on forehead and all, and I don't hear anyone complaining about that.
Freedom of speech, my friend. They are free to wear what they want, but I'm free to critique it and their faith.JohnG@lt wrote:
Worry about your own shit, and less about what other people wear. I've honestly never understood what the big fucking deal is except that it's a few less women in the world for horny men to oggle in public.
You are one step from trying to outlaw them like the idiots in France.Turquoise wrote:
Fair enough.JohnG@lt wrote:
There's not always religious justification for wearing the hijab. I've known rather liberal muslim women in NYC who've decided to wear it to connect with their culture. There are also about a million Indian women here wearing burkas, dot on forehead and all, and I don't hear anyone complaining about that.Freedom of speech, my friend. They are free to wear what they want, but I'm free to critique it and their faith.JohnG@lt wrote:
Worry about your own shit, and less about what other people wear. I've honestly never understood what the big fucking deal is except that it's a few less women in the world for horny men to oggle in public.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I amDiesel_dyk wrote:
anyone up for a gay bar catering to mormons? presbyterians? south baptists? etc etc
How so? I've repeatedly mentioned that I support the freedom of religion, the freedom of speech, and the freedom of choice.JohnG@lt wrote:
You are one step from trying to outlaw them like the idiots in France.Turquoise wrote:
Fair enough.JohnG@lt wrote:
There's not always religious justification for wearing the hijab. I've known rather liberal muslim women in NYC who've decided to wear it to connect with their culture. There are also about a million Indian women here wearing burkas, dot on forehead and all, and I don't hear anyone complaining about that.Freedom of speech, my friend. They are free to wear what they want, but I'm free to critique it and their faith.JohnG@lt wrote:
Worry about your own shit, and less about what other people wear. I've honestly never understood what the big fucking deal is except that it's a few less women in the world for horny men to oggle in public.
Yea, I agree with this. But what about cases like this?JohnG@lt wrote:
There's not always religious justification for wearing the hijab. I've known rather liberal muslim women in NYC who've decided to wear it to connect with their culture. There are also about a million Indian women here wearing burkas, dot on forehead and all, and I don't hear anyone complaining about that.Turquoise wrote:
Yep, and we evolved past that, didn't we? It's time for the rest of the world to catch up.JohnG@lt wrote:
You do know that about 100 years ago it was considered indecent for women to show any skin at all right here in America, right?There's a big difference between that and a hijab. For starters, there's usually no religious justification.JohnG@lt wrote:
Times change. I don't think it's necessarily sexist to want your wife or daughter to cover up rather than go down to South Beach and lay out with nothing more than a g-string bottom covering them up.
Worry about your own shit, and less about what other people wear. I've honestly never understood what the big fucking deal is except that it's a few less women in the world for horny men to oggle in public.
Driving is a privilege, not a right. One of the rules of the road is maintaining a photo drivers license on your person at all times. No sympathy there.SenorToenails wrote:
Yea, I agree with this. But what about cases like this?JohnG@lt wrote:
There's not always religious justification for wearing the hijab. I've known rather liberal muslim women in NYC who've decided to wear it to connect with their culture. There are also about a million Indian women here wearing burkas, dot on forehead and all, and I don't hear anyone complaining about that.Turquoise wrote:
Yep, and we evolved past that, didn't we? It's time for the rest of the world to catch up.JohnG@lt wrote:
You do know that about 100 years ago it was considered indecent for women to show any skin at all right here in America, right?
There's a big difference between that and a hijab. For starters, there's usually no religious justification.
Worry about your own shit, and less about what other people wear. I've honestly never understood what the big fucking deal is except that it's a few less women in the world for horny men to oggle in public.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
If you really want to get technical, every aspect of our lives has been brainwashed into us. We have been brainwashed into seeking an education, we have been brainwashed into knowing what is right and wrong means; the list could go on. Its all the same.Turquoise wrote:
Well, if we're being technical, any follower of a religion is brainwashed to an extent. We're all born atheists. In the vast majority of cases, you have to be convinced by your family that a deity exists.mafia996630 wrote:
So even if a woman wants to wear it;she must be brainwashed ?
If you're raised with a religion, you're much more likely to continue believing in a deity or deities than you are to reject these beliefs because of the social pressure to do so. Along with this comes customs like wearing the hijab, and throughout many cultures, the hijab is basically a more blatant representation of sexism. Women are forced to cover up, while men aren't.
In the West, Muslim women are freer to decide between wearing it and not, but the ones who still do are just following traditions that have been pushed on them through multiple generations.
But hey, I'm not saying that Islam is the only faith guilty of sexism. We see it in other faiths as well -- like the forbidding of female priests in Catholicism.
Religion in general holds back all sorts of social progress.
While you see Islam as sexist; I think Islam acknowledges males and females are different, they have different needs and desires.
Last edited by mafia996630 (2010-08-13 11:54:29)
Not all brainwashing is the same. A certain amount of what we are guided into believing is based on logic and evidence. Even a large portion of morality is based upon practical needs among society rather than metaphysical beings and folklore.mafia996630 wrote:
If you really want to get technical, every aspect of our lives has been brainwashed into us. We have been brainwashed into seeking an education, we have been brainwashed into knowing what is right and wrong means; the list could go on. Its all the same.
My argument is that the traditions that are based solely on scripture lack the logic, evidence, and practical usefulness that make them worthy of support in modern rational society. Social progress requires the curtailing of said traditions not through law but through social pressure.
It makes logical sense for mainstream society to view the hijab as sexist when considering the history behind it. Even things as simple as wedding rings have a dark past based on traditions that we would most likely shun if more of us were familiar with their origins.
Fair enough.mafia996630 wrote:
While you see Islam as sexist; I think Islam acknowledges males and females are different, they have different needs and desires.
To a point, I completely agree.mafia996630 wrote:
While you see Islam as sexist; I think Islam acknowledges males and females are different, they have different needs and desires.
Past that point lies madness, where women have acid poured on their face, or their nose cut off, for trivial violations of modesty or trying to escape abusive environments.
I also don't quite understand why the women are required to walk around covered head to toe in black cloth, in 120°F weather, lest they inspire lascivious thoughts in the men?
WTF? because the men can't control themselves, the women have to walk around in a Glad bag?
The moderate Islam, though, makes some sense.
The attitude of modesty, of the women voluntarily covering up, of "This is for my husband, not for you. I do not want your attention, or your admiration". That is understandable, to a degree - if it's her decision, not because her tiny-dick husband has insecurity issues.
Then again, I'm all for tall, attractive, brunettes with ample breasts, sensuously rubbing suntan lotion on those ample breasts while sunbathing topless. If they don't mind the polite admiration and observation, I don't mind the view. Have to remember "look, don't touch, don't leer".
Last edited by rdx-fx (2010-08-13 12:54:06)
You clearly know nothing about the life of women in the pre-islamic societies, specially in middle east.Turquoise wrote:
As for women's rights, the hijab and burka are pre-Islamic practices incorporated into Islam that hold back the equality of women.
I am still wondering if you had the chance to meet/talk to muslim women wearing hijab... pretty sure some of them will brainwash you
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic