Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
In terms of influencing other democracies I'd say the US model is essentially trivial - apart from for those countries which have had 'democracy' rammed down their throats by the US military.
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eleven bravo
Member
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ok now you guys are sounding as bad as lowing
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Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6686

Dilbert_X wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

For me the Magna Carta is right next to it. Shit the rest of the world was being ran by kings and queens till WW1. US was the only democracy till then, sure there were a shitload of hypocrisies (especially in regards to slavery).
Oh you must have missed Ancient Greece, nvm.

yes not a true democracy but you know what i mean
And France, they had democracy before the US existed, and Britain, the Mother of Parliaments, and Russia, they did away with their Royal Family, and .... no doubt there are others.
France was ran by a king who even supported the US revolution so wtf you on about? US was the first democracy in the modern era. Yes the UK did have a parliament, but its a constitutional monarchy and not yet a true democracy. Either way, the US constitution did become a model for a lot of constitutions (US did steal parts of the UK bill of rights afaik).
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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
the US constitution did become a model for a lot of constitutions
For example?
US did steal parts of the UK bill of rights afaik
Exactly, the UK was first with rights and Parliamentary democracy.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-08-03 00:10:47)

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Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6686

Dilbert_X wrote:

the US constitution did become a model for a lot of constitutions
For example?
Mexico, Germany, UDHR (not a legally binding document but...), Argentina and a lot of South American governments during the 1800s.

http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/ea … 01293.html

Dilbert you must remember Americans are descendants of Europeans... they did take a lot of ideas with them.

Last edited by Cybargs (2010-08-03 00:15:02)

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Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

Cybargs wrote:

Dilbert you must remember Americans are descendants of Europeans... they did take a lot of ideas with them.
In which case the British BOR and system of govt, and other european influences are somewhat more significant than the US constitution, since they predate it.

History doesn't begin with the declaration of independence.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-08-03 00:57:24)

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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

the US constitution did become a model for a lot of constitutions
For example?
Thomas Jefferson wrote the French Constitution so I fail to see how the French predate us... 1781 > 1792

That said, none of the ideas espoused by the 'founding fathers' of the US was original. They borrowed heavily from Locke, Descartes, Hume, Paine and myriad other sources including Greek texts (Jefferson was fluent in Greek). Were they the first to put all these philosophies into action? Yes, simply because they had a clean slate to work with.

I know you have an unbridled and irrational hatred of America but give credit where its due.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Ioan92
Member
+337|5692

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

the US constitution did become a model for a lot of constitutions
For example?
Thomas Jefferson wrote the French Constitution so I fail to see how the French predate us... 1781 > 1792

That said, none of the ideas espoused by the 'founding fathers' of the US was original. They borrowed heavily from Locke, Descartes, Hume, Paine and myriad other sources including Greek texts (Jefferson was fluent in Greek). Were they the first to put all these philosophies into action? Yes, simply because they had a clean slate to work with.

I know you have an unbridled and irrational hatred of America but give credit where its due.
What was then, was.

What is now, is.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

I know you have an unbridled and irrational hatred of America but give credit where its due.
Its more people who think the US is the greatest country in the universe, when they don't have any knowledge of history or the rest of the world.
Thomas Jefferson wrote the French Constitution
Um not really.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-08-03 06:27:18)

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Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6645|Canberra, AUS

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

the US constitution did become a model for a lot of constitutions
For example?
Thomas Jefferson wrote the French Constitution so I fail to see how the French predate us... 1781 > 1792
Saurce? My own (brief) trawlings have come up blank thus far.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England
It was never done openly, but his writings, particularly "Notes on the State of Virginia", his work on the Virginia Constitution and of course the Declaration of Independence were wildly famous in France at the time. He was also the US ambassador and living in Paris at the time of the revolution in 1789. There's no conclusive proof that he did indeed write it out, but the people who did write it visited him frequently at the time and his servants reported him busily writing letters and other pieces to key members of the revolution at the time.

So, either way, even if he didn't write it with his own hand, he played a large part in forming the basic ideas behind the French constitution.

I read it in this book:
https://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/7129FSD19ML._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.gif

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-08-03 07:22:04)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6645|Canberra, AUS
Ah you meant "wrote it" as in indirectly. My mistake, I assumed you meant he actually physically wrote it for them.

EDIT: Did find a fair bit about his heavy 'interest' in the French Revolution though.

Last edited by Spark (2010-08-03 07:22:29)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

Spark wrote:

Ah you meant "wrote it" as in indirectly. My mistake, I assumed you meant he actually physically wrote it for them.
It's thought that he might have. Some people have compared the handwriting and seen that it was very similar.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
oug
Calmer than you are.
+380|6489|Πάϊ

jord wrote:

oug wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

The US constitution is the most important piece of document for personal liberty in the history of man kind and a lot of constitutions have modeled after it.
Off topic but omg get a grip man. Better yet get a proper education. The world's been around a wee bit more than 250 years... :S
Think he's being sarcastic.
Turns out he wasn't

Anyway Cybargs, the US constitution is certainly not a product of parthenogenesis. If you want to trace back to the origin of the ideas in it you need to go back a couple of thousand years.
btw your slavery remark is rather infantile so I'll ignore it


nice little derail I did there btw
ƒ³
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5229|foggy bottom
the british constitution is a pretty old docu....oh yeah, i forgot.
Tu Stultus Es
13rin
Member
+977|6449
.... Sooo anyways, I hope they find the others involved.  Apparently there a big brother online?  Outrage anyone?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
LostFate
Same shit, Different Arsehole
+95|6455|England

Cybargs wrote:

Ioan92 wrote:

patriotism/ nationalism is outdated, and that constitution thing makes me laugh.
The US constitution is the most important piece of document for personal liberty in the history of man kind and a lot of constitutions have modeled after it.
lol what a comment from you, you have constantly supported  the war in Iraq which is Illegal and against the Constitution.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6686

LostFate wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Ioan92 wrote:

patriotism/ nationalism is outdated, and that constitution thing makes me laugh.
The US constitution is the most important piece of document for personal liberty in the history of man kind and a lot of constitutions have modeled after it.
lol what a comment from you, you have constantly supported  the war in Iraq which is Illegal and against the Constitution.
Your thoughts, insights, and musings on this matter intrigue me. oh and where does it say that war is illegal under the constitution? you do realize the prez is the commander in chief of the us armed forces. iraq war isn't illegal, they already had an icj hearing and icj didn't rule it illegal gg.

UN reso 1441 let the US roll into iraq. hell it was voted unanimously.

Last edited by Cybargs (2010-08-03 11:35:20)

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loubot
O' HAL naw!
+470|6548|Columbus, OH
ffs you guises made sweet baby jsus weep
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

It was never done openly, but his writings, particularly "Notes on the State of Virginia", his work on the Virginia Constitution and of course the Declaration of Independence were wildly famous in France at the time. He was also the US ambassador and living in Paris at the time of the revolution in 1789. There's no conclusive proof that he did indeed write it out, but the people who did write it visited him frequently at the time and his servants reported him busily writing letters and other pieces to key members of the revolution at the time.

So, either way, even if he didn't write it with his own hand, he played a large part in forming the basic ideas behind the French constitution.

I read it in this book:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/7 … _OU01_.gif
In that case didn't John Locke write the US constitution?
Jefferson just did a cut and paste.
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Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

It was never done openly, but his writings, particularly "Notes on the State of Virginia", his work on the Virginia Constitution and of course the Declaration of Independence were wildly famous in France at the time. He was also the US ambassador and living in Paris at the time of the revolution in 1789. There's no conclusive proof that he did indeed write it out, but the people who did write it visited him frequently at the time and his servants reported him busily writing letters and other pieces to key members of the revolution at the time.

So, either way, even if he didn't write it with his own hand, he played a large part in forming the basic ideas behind the French constitution.

I read it in this book:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/7 … _OU01_.gif
In that case didn't John Locke write the US constitution?
Jefferson just did a cut and paste.
He can certainly be credited with a portion of it, yes.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX
So your statement "Jefferson wrote the French constitution" is just daft, in fact they went directly to John Locke's writing for a lot of it.

Same as "The US constitution is the most important piece of document for personal liberty in the history of man kind." is pretty daft.
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Phrozenbot
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"As goes Kandahar, so goes Afghanistan."
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5328|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

So your statement "Jefferson wrote the French constitution" is just daft, in fact they went directly to John Locke's writing for a lot of it.

Same as "The US constitution is the most important piece of document for personal liberty in the history of man kind." is pretty daft.
You seem quite proud of your countryman Locke. One has to wonder why your homeland turned its back on the beautiful ideas that he expressed and replaced them with ugly conformity. While my country still upholds English philosophy, your own has tried its hardest to mimic Prussian rigidity.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6076|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

You seem quite proud of your countryman Locke. One has to wonder why your homeland turned its back on the beautiful ideas that he expressed and replaced them with ugly conformity. While my country still upholds English philosophy, your own has tried its hardest to mimic Prussian rigidity.
Have you even been to England?
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