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2010-06-11 07:05:42
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,816|6391|eXtreme to the maX

pace51 wrote:

Spark wrote:

Oh, I doubt that would ever, ever, ever, ever, ever happen. The UN is not a good body at doing things of its own initiative.
Or...
USA: Let's make mexico make sure their citizens stay in mexico, with severe penalties if they don't!
France: Agreed
Russia: Not my problem... agreed
USA: Agreed
China: Ditto, Russia. Agreed, secure the borders mexico.
Every other country: Agreed
Britain: Veto
*Britain whispers to France*: Because I can!h
Its the US which vetos stuff.
Fuck Israel
2010-06-11 07:17:23
pace51
Boom?
+194|5459|Markham, Ontario

Dilbert_X wrote:

pace51 wrote:

Spark wrote:

Oh, I doubt that would ever, ever, ever, ever, ever happen. The UN is not a good body at doing things of its own initiative.
Or...
USA: Let's make mexico make sure their citizens stay in mexico, with severe penalties if they don't!
France: Agreed
Russia: Not my problem... agreed
USA: Agreed
China: Ditto, Russia. Agreed, secure the borders mexico.
Every other country: Agreed
Britain: Veto
*Britain whispers to France*: Because I can!h
Its the US which vetos stuff.
Stuff that doesn't benefit it. I'm not making fun of Britain in particular, just saying that veto power sometimes prevents UN from being helpful.
2010-06-11 07:54:44
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6960|Canberra, AUS

Dilbert_X wrote:

pace51 wrote:

Spark wrote:

Oh, I doubt that would ever, ever, ever, ever, ever happen. The UN is not a good body at doing things of its own initiative.
Or...
USA: Let's make mexico make sure their citizens stay in mexico, with severe penalties if they don't!
France: Agreed
Russia: Not my problem... agreed
USA: Agreed
China: Ditto, Russia. Agreed, secure the borders mexico.
Every other country: Agreed
Britain: Veto
*Britain whispers to France*: Because I can!h
Its the US which vetos stuff.
And Britain (usually at the same time), and France (usually also at the same time), and Russia and China (usually in tandem)...
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2010-06-11 08:50:51
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5759|Ventura, California

pace51 wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

ya he's a tool
isnt american either
It's DST, opinions are allowed. Putting the USMC on the border probably isn't the best idea though. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon, but the Marines are meant to be on the frontlines of battle, wherever needed, meaning they'd do poorly as a border patrol. On the border, they'd be sitting around mainly. The USA should see if they an get the UN to put severe punishments on mexico or something for all the border violations.
Oh for pete's sake! The USMC was just an example, it should be the National Guard or something along the boarder with some HMMWVs and Blackhawks supported by UAVs.

UAV detects thermal images crossing areas restricted then send in the HMMWVs or Blackhawks with armed men, and if the Mexicans resist use the force deemed necessary to capture them, and if they use ANY weapons they can be shot at.

[edit]

Sure it's not as easy as described above, it's an example, so don't get on my case for bullshit reasons.

Last edited by -Sh1fty- (2010-06-11 08:52:38)

And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
2010-06-11 09:00:24
Diesel_dyk
Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears
+178|6280|Truthistan

11 Bravo wrote:

Diesel_dyk wrote:

Narupug wrote:

Eh...
Any examples that didn't involve a nation divided over an unpopular war?
How about this one? an american getting shot dead and he wasn't even throwing rocks or anything, just tending to chores on the family farm.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esequiel_Hern%C3%A1ndez_Jr

mmmmm I guess he must have looked illegal /sarcasm
seems like you didnt read your own link....



let me help.

"At one point, Hernández fired his rifle twice in the direction of the concealed Marines, possibly believing them to be wild animals."

so that little smart ass comment at the end now makes you look stupid.  good job.  try again.  add a another quarter.
Yah.. smart... so... there

You should have read on to where it said "In 1998, the U.S. government paid his family $1.9 million to settle a wrongful death claim."
1.9 million is a hell of an apology for f*cking up, like they say money talks an BS walks.

And don't forget, the kid was AMERICAN, shot on his own farm in the US, by the military sent there to protect the border. Now that's pretty f'ed up.


So I repeat "mmm... must have looked illegal" truth hurts sorry it doesn't fit the narrative you're trying to spin.

EDIT: here I'll add this
"Houston Chronicle, May 22, 1998
Subpoenas OK'd in herder's shooting by Marine by Steve Lash
Notable quote: "'Did someone really believe that a youth with a .22 rifle had decided to conduct a frontal assault on a team of United States Marines?' Smith said [Rep. Lamar Smith, R-San Antonio]. 'Did they think that their only option was to shoot him?'
    During the 20 minutes after firing his rifle, 'Hernandez moved slowly along a ridge, exposed from all sides,' Smith said. Meanwhile, the Marines 'shadowed him, maintaining their concealment,' he added. When Hernandez raised his rifle again, Marine Cpl. Clemente Banuelos from 150 yards away 'put the cross-hairs of his scoped M-16 on the youth's chest and pulled the trigger,' Smith said."
http://www.dpft.org/hernandez/

The kid was probably bored and shooting at shit on his families farm. probably didn't even know the marines in ghilli suits were there.
If you put military resources on the border, they better have a clearly defined mandate more like peace keepers, or you'll get more Hernandezes.

Last edited by Diesel_dyk (2010-06-11 09:15:40)

2010-06-11 09:32:22
pace51
Boom?
+194|5459|Markham, Ontario

-Sh1fty- wrote:

pace51 wrote:

FatherTed wrote:

isnt american either
It's DST, opinions are allowed. Putting the USMC on the border probably isn't the best idea though. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon, but the Marines are meant to be on the frontlines of battle, wherever needed, meaning they'd do poorly as a border patrol. On the border, they'd be sitting around mainly. The USA should see if they an get the UN to put severe punishments on mexico or something for all the border violations.
Oh for pete's sake! The USMC was just an example, it should be the National Guard or something along the boarder with some HMMWVs and Blackhawks supported by UAVs.

UAV detects thermal images crossing areas restricted then send in the HMMWVs or Blackhawks with armed men, and if the Mexicans resist use the force deemed necessary to capture them, and if they use ANY weapons they can be shot at.

[edit]

Sure it's not as easy as described above, it's an example, so don't get on my case for bullshit reasons.
Actually, shifty, I'm starting to see what you're getting at. I'm starting to agree, too. If border patrol had better hardware, things would be easier. The coast guard used eurocopters, HH-60 Jayhawks (a civilian version of the black hawk that is suited to patrol operations) and P-3 Orions to locate smugglers and patrol. They even used EC-130's (The coast guard couldn't afford their EC-130 and had to sell it a few years ago, though, so they don't use it anymore). With some better hardware and more patrol aircraft, the border issue could be handled better. I don't know if this is possible, but maybe the army can spare some UH-60's to get converted to HH-60's? They would be perfect for border patrolling. Aactually, I'm gonna do a Jayhawk RWF to show what It's capable of.

Last edited by pace51 (2010-06-11 09:34:18)

2010-06-11 10:04:17
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5759|Ventura, California
I'm thinking more like UAVs patrolling the larger stretches which aren't urban, just soaring up high with their thermals on and detecting any head signatures out toward Mexico which might start heading North.

The real issue would be how to treat these illegals. How would they be intercepted?

In urban environments, you need men on the ground and walls. Then there's tunnels but that's a different story.

For the rural areas maybe a few blackhawks every so many hundred miles with a squad ready to intercept. I'm sure standard border patrol agents can handle one guy.

I know this would cost a lot but if the U.S. got rid of a lot of the bullshit government welfare then they could easily afford it.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
2010-06-11 10:07:16
pace51
Boom?
+194|5459|Markham, Ontario

-Sh1fty- wrote:

I'm thinking more like UAVs patrolling the larger stretches which aren't urban, just soaring up high with their thermals on and detecting any head signatures out toward Mexico which might start heading North.

The real issue would be how to treat these illegals. How would they be intercepted?

In urban environments, you need men on the ground and walls. Then there's tunnels but that's a different story.

For the rural areas maybe a few blackhawks every so many hundred miles with a squad ready to intercept. I'm sure standard border patrol agents can handle one guy.

I know this would cost a lot but if the U.S. got rid of a lot of the bullshit government welfare then they could easily afford it.
Well, RQ-8's and RQ-1's would be cheap and could be stationed nearby. As for interception, an MH-60 pave hawk, or a simple HH-60 or even a UH-60 could do it. Like, border patrol could use quick and powerful helicopters to reach the more remote areas.
2010-06-11 10:13:51
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5759|Ventura, California
You would need engineers to make new FOBs, and a lot of them. The US-Mexico border is about 3000 miles long. 6 bases (1 every 500 miles) would be a lot of money to maintain, you would need men always ready to intercept, so you would need a lot of troops and pilots for proper cycles so they could get enough sleep.

Then you need food, water, equipment, maintenance, etc.

How long would it take a blackhawk to travel 250 miles? There's a problem there, can the illegals get into urban areas quickly enough to hide? All this Afghanistan shit is bugging me, we need our borders secure before going out there. There's 100'000 men there, we could easily secure our borders with that.

Does anybody with a better view of logistics and politics and shit have a better idea?
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
2010-06-11 10:21:55
pace51
Boom?
+194|5459|Markham, Ontario

-Sh1fty- wrote:

You would need engineers to make new FOBs, and a lot of them. The US-Mexico border is about 3000 miles long. 6 bases (1 every 500 miles) would be a lot of money to maintain, you would need men always ready to intercept, so you would need a lot of troops and pilots for proper cycles so they could get enough sleep.

Then you need food, water, equipment, maintenance, etc.

How long would it take a blackhawk to travel 250 miles? There's a problem there, can the illegals get into urban areas quickly enough to hide? All this Afghanistan shit is bugging me, we need our borders secure before going out there. There's 100'000 men there, we could easily secure our borders with that.

Does anybody with a better view of logistics and politics and shit have a better idea?
A blackhawk isn't the speediest helicopter, to be sure. But, it's versatile, and could operate all around the border. Also, it's not slow, even if it's not too fast, so with enough HH-60 Jayhawks, the border could be covered. Ground troops could also be on station to intercept when notified of illegals by UAV's in the air. Also, a P-3 orion would be useful as it can stay in the air for hours, and could patrol the border effectively, which would be perfect. Yes, an operation of this mgnitude requires a lot of personnel.
2010-06-11 10:29:08
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

pace51 wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

you guys are fucking morons.
This is DST. Keep anything personal out. And, maybe we'd take you more seriously if you explained why we're morons?
Because you're both ignorant children discussing topics you have no experience in dealing with. You both like to pretend you know 'what's up' with the military but you're still in diapers. One of you has an irrational hardon for the USMC and the other is a geek who should be working for Jane's. Reading anything either of you type is painful.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-06-11 10:32:13
pace51
Boom?
+194|5459|Markham, Ontario

eleven bravo wrote:

two foreign teeny boppers
That word hasn't been used for over 30 years

eleven bravo wrote:

two foreign teeny boppers discussing military and political strategies
So? Wwe can debate, it's DST. If we say something wrong, prove us wrong. Or, since this is a sharing of opinions, share your opinion of the strategies instead of your opinion of our discussion

eleven bravo wrote:

two foreign teeny boppers discussing military and political strategies for a border they arent even inside of
As said above. And besides, it's interesting and entertaining discussing military strategy with people.

And on topic...

Border patrol doesn't require heavy military equipment, just some nice hardware. So, money could be saved mounting surveillance equipment on cheap aircraft and vehicles.
2010-06-11 10:36:57
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

pace51 wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

"debating" anything with you would only make me ashamed of myself
This is DST. Debate or

http://static.bf2s.com/files/user/52201/SHUT_UP.png

Besides, we're debating with what we know. Which is allowed. Some people here are experts on some debate topics. Others, like most of you, assume knowing how to open the wikipedia page on the topic you're debating gives you free reign.
Or it could be that the two guys with real world military and combat experience are telling you two idiots to stfu and go back to playing with your dolls and toy soldiers.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-06-11 10:38:55
SenorToenails
Veritas et Scientia
+444|6416|North Tonawanda, NY

pace51 wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

"debating" anything with you would only make me ashamed of myself
This is DST. Debate or

http://static.bf2s.com/files/user/52201/SHUT_UP.png

Besides, we're debating with what we know. Which is allowed. Some people here are experts on some debate topics. Others, like most of you, assume knowing how to open the wikipedia page on the topic you're debating gives you free reign.
For the love of fuck.  eleven bravo is right, and John just told you why.
2010-06-11 10:39:27
pace51
Boom?
+194|5459|Markham, Ontario

JohnG@lt wrote:

pace51 wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

"debating" anything with you would only make me ashamed of myself
This is DST. Debate or

http://static.bf2s.com/files/user/52201/SHUT_UP.png

Besides, we're debating with what we know. Which is allowed. Some people here are experts on some debate topics. Others, like most of you, assume knowing how to open the wikipedia page on the topic you're debating gives you free reign.
Or it could be that the two guys with real world military and combat experience are telling you two idiots to stfu and go back to playing with your dolls and toy soldiers.
There is one way I will "shut up and leave" and one way only. If you two share your military expertise and prove us wrong through debating.
2010-06-11 11:01:20
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England
We got modded
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-06-11 11:03:03
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6992|67.222.138.85
This goes back to, think what you will about people, but say something nice or don't say anything at all. Antagonizing does not help the problem in any form or fashion. It only draws more idiotic posts into the forum.
2010-06-11 11:16:20
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5759|Ventura, California
It just freaking sucks because there's no way the U.S. can 100% secure it's borders. Maybe not even 50%.

Then you have illegals coming into the U.S. and living off of welfare whilst doing a bunch of crime. Perfect proof is that guy who was deported NINE times. I'm not saying all Mexicans are like that, I'm just generalizing.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
2010-06-11 11:19:16
pace51
Boom?
+194|5459|Markham, Ontario

-Sh1fty- wrote:

It just freaking sucks because there's no way the U.S. can 100% secure it's borders. Maybe not even 50%.

Then you have illegals coming into the U.S. and living off of welfare whilst doing a bunch of crime. Perfect proof is that guy who was deported NINE times. I'm not saying all Mexicans are like that, I'm just generalizing.
It does suck that these things happen. There aren't many easy solutions to the problem, though. UN intervention would help. Like, embargoes on mexico. Except nike wouldn't be able to receive the products manufactured by its sweat shops.
2010-06-11 11:26:26
pace51
Boom?
+194|5459|Markham, Ontario
Oh, and, maybe if Mexicans were paid by theUSA to keep watch on their fellow mexicans? That may help. Even if the point is to not pay mexicans.
2010-06-11 11:41:31
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5759|Ventura, California
Ok Pace, here's the plan:

Every 250 miles, an FOB for the national guard, built by their engineers. Then there needs to be a dirt road accessible by HMMWV. The HMMWVs would be M998s with M240Gs on top or something, M2 would do fine too though.

The blackhawks could easily airlift the HMMWVs if they needed to. But I'm thinking of using the HMMWVs in urban areas only.

Have some logistic vehicles at the FOBs and I'm thinking of a platoon of national guard men lightly armed at each FOB. So that makes 12 FOBs with 1 platoon each. That's about 4 companies I think. Then the logistic personnel like truck drivers for bringing food, water, fuel and other necessities.

The FOBs are to be long term, so good barracks and slowly improve little things as time goes by. Have a helipad of course, and HMMWVs and trucks to transport the companies if needed.

Now when they get to the target, they pick them up then fly them over to Mexican authorities. Otherwise fuck Mexico and fly them about 25 miles behind the border and drop em off.

Another day at the office...

[edit] Oh and if the Mexican authorities point their guns at the US agents again, the US is to point their guns back, if the Mexicans don't lower their weapons then fire a smoke grenade at em, if that doesn't work, light em the fuck up. You don't take aim at a country that can fucking crush you, for many reasons.

Last edited by -Sh1fty- (2010-06-11 11:47:35)

And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
2010-06-11 11:45:03
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England
Please close this thread.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-06-11 11:49:36
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|6854|Mountains of NC

wat .... no stealths flying back and fourth over the border,laying down ordinance
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg
2010-06-11 11:52:22
-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5759|Ventura, California
Well, we could just call Chuck Norris.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
2010-06-11 11:52:47
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|6854|Mountains of NC

now thats just silly
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg

Topic closed

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