Daysniper
Member
+42|6698

Spark wrote:

jimmanycricket wrote:

it dosnt mater where on earth you are microbs still perform best at 30 degrees C.
IF you are gona say that life can adapt to anything why is no life on venus.
Answer, because the conditions are to extreme.
And how do we know there's no life on Venus? There are swarms among swarms of bacteria (known as exthermophiles) which can survive temperatures of 400C AND 2C at the same time!

The only thing we know about Venus's surface is from a hour's worth of transmissions from some Soviet lander. Hardly conclusive.
Well, that and some radar maps of the surface.
http://www.solarviews.com/eng/venus.htm
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6840
Earth was perfect when adam and eve were around. Ozone is man-made. We do have a stable weather system. Just because in some places tornadoes and hurricanes hit doesnt mean our earth is messed up. The extra hurricanes might be our fault too because of global warming. Theres no advanced life on venus. I think most scientists would agree. Possibly some bacteria but not much more.

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-04-30 18:25:24)

Vic42
Member
+2|6786|Sacramento, California

G3|Genius wrote:

. . . I am a Roman Catholic Christian, which differs from Fundamentalist Christians several ways, the most relevant being that we do not believe the Bible is the ONLY source of Christ's teaching.  We believe that everything in the bible is true IN MATTERS OF FAITH AND MORALS, but we do not believe that it is a science book, nor a history book.  It is a book of faith and of love. . .
Thanks for that post, now I can say I actually learned something in this thread. Of course, Catholics didn't always believe that the Bible is not a history book. I'm really glad to see that Catholicism can evolve too.


JaMDuDe, billions of people are Roman Catholics, and they believe that the Bible is not a history book. You should take their word for it. Also:

Pope Benedict XVI wrote:

Members of other religions are "gravely deficient" relative to members of the Church of Christ who already have "the fullness of the means of salvation."
When he said "other religions", the Pope was including all non-Catholics. JaMDuDe, I believe that includes you. Can you prove that the Pope is wrong?
Daysniper
Member
+42|6698

JaMDuDe wrote:

Earth was perfect when adam and eve were around. Ozone is man-made. We do have a stable weather system. Just because in some places tornadoes and hurricanes hit doesnt mean our earth is messed up. The extra hurricanes might be our fault too because of global warming. Theres no advanced life on venus. I think most scientists would agree. Possibly some bacteria but not much more.
Yes ozone can be manmade, but it occurred in the atmosphere naturally http://www.epa.gov/ozone/science/unepSciQandA.pdf. Wow, what a defense. "We do have a stable weather system", whoopee, way to go.

Although, as much as it pains me I have to say I agree with you on life on Venus.
Now Europa, that's a different story !

Last edited by Daysniper (2006-04-30 18:37:22)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6737|Canberra, AUS

JaMDuDe wrote:

Earth was perfect when adam and eve were around. Ozone is man-made. We do have a stable weather system. Just because in some places tornadoes and hurricanes hit doesnt mean our earth is messed up. The extra hurricanes might be our fault too because of global warming. Theres no advanced life on venus. I think most scientists would agree. Possibly some bacteria but not much more.
Oh MY FUCKING GOD! You have just all respect from me - almost everything you said there was wrong.

OZONE IS FUCKING MAN-MADE? IF THERE WASN'T ANY FUCKING OZONE THERE WOULDN'T BE FUCKING US!

And show me CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE THAT THERE ARE MORE HURRICANES - until 2005, we were 'below average' for the decade.

And how about life living UNDERGROUND, huh? They managed to be complex - because they evolved beneath the surface!
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Daysniper
Member
+42|6698

Spark wrote:

JaMDuDe wrote:

Earth was perfect when adam and eve were around. Ozone is man-made. We do have a stable weather system. Just because in some places tornadoes and hurricanes hit doesnt mean our earth is messed up. The extra hurricanes might be our fault too because of global warming. Theres no advanced life on venus. I think most scientists would agree. Possibly some bacteria but not much more.
Oh MY FUCKING GOD! You have just all respect from me - almost everything you said there was wrong.

OZONE IS FUCKING MAN-MADE? IF THERE WASN'T ANY FUCKING OZONE THERE WOULDN'T BE FUCKING US!

And show me CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE THAT THERE ARE MORE HURRICANES - until 2005, we were 'below average' for the decade.

And how about life living UNDERGROUND, huh? They managed to be complex - because they evolved beneath the surface!
cool down there, buddy. Even though your right.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6737|Canberra, AUS
Sorry bout that.

It's just that I have never seen such a strangely dumb statement in a long time.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6840
Ok, i guess you didnt read what daysniper said. The O-zone HOLE is man-made from pollution. Not the o-zone itself. Hurricanes form over warm water, when the water gets warmer there are more hurricanes. Its a possibility that Global warming might be responsible for the rise in hurricanes. Im not saying that the rise in amount of hurricanes is because of us im just sayin it might be. What does this life underground live on? Mutated plants that live without water? Life on our planet could live underground because it had food and water and all that stuff from the surface.

Last edited by JaMDuDe (2006-04-30 18:43:52)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6737|Canberra, AUS
Really? I thought you said

"Ozone is man-made."

Now I take 'Ozone' to mean 'Ozone'. Not 'Ozone hole'.

There is, actually, a lot of water locked in Venus's atmosphere - a LOT of water. That's how such nasty sulfuric acids can form - they need water.

And there could be huge quantities of water underground - you never know. All we know about the surface are a few photos and a few atmospheric readings.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6840
But venus is fried, there are no nutrients. Are we really arguing whether there is life on venus? I guess you can really try to prove ANYTHING.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6737|Canberra, AUS
Meh. I'm just saying that we don't know, so anything is possible.

As long as there is water and chemical energy, there is usually life. Venus has plenty of both.

Last edited by Spark (2006-04-30 18:56:18)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6763

JaMDuDe wrote:

So skruples, you cant prove how prophecies happened but say things like people shared the food and jesus didnt make it. Its impossible to prove unless we go back in time so i guess we will disagree.
I wasn't trying to prove anything. Unlike you, I do not believe that my point of view is absolutely correct all the time. However, I find it much more likely that Jesus convinced a bunch of strangers to share their food than the idea that Jesus caused food to appear miraculously.

JaMDuDe wrote:

There is this dude called satan, he tries to mislead people away from God any way he can. When people are desperate for religion and this guy claims to have talked with and angel from God people will believe him. But dont forget that most muslims dont get to study any other religions and are pretty much forced to obey one religion for life.
I see. So all religions other than christianity are the work of satan, an entity they don't even believe in. Thats some quality thinking right there.

JaMDuDe wrote:

How do people believing john edwards talks to dead people compare to over 500 people seing Jesus after He died and some people touching his hands and feet? I said it before, i know if some people REALLY were searching for Him they might see him but over 500 people and some touching His hands and feet....
You have once again completely missed the point. John Edwards does not actually talk to dead people. He is a fraud. Yet for some reason thousands upon thousands of reasonable, intelligent, well educated people believe he talks to spirits. Why? I don't know. But using this and countless other examples of people believing in otherwise ridiculous things as a starting point, it wouldn't be suprising to me if some people 2000 years ago believed in miracles and wrote it down. I don't know what your foot fetish is about, but hey, to each his own.

JaMDuDe wrote:

Theres a difference between the isrealite slaves who devouted their entire life to God(litterally) and the jewish people who rejected Jesus.
Fair enough, but thats beside the point. The point was that God hasn't done anything in close to 2000 years, and I was asking why. You have yet to answer, besides some half-assed explanation about how we don't devote enough time to Him for Him to care.

JaMDuDe wrote:

Your editing all the things God did to make it look like Hes a bad guy.
Am I? Are you saying that those events did not in fact occur? God did not wipe out every living thing on the planet with a flood? He didn't burn two cities to the ground in spite? I'm confused here, you spend a great deal of time telling us how the Bible is the absolute truth in the universe, and now all of a sudden God didn't do all those horrible things? Make up your mind.

JaMDuDe wrote:

Only God can judge and send people to hell. People do need Jesus to get to heaven but i doubt if people cant understand it He sends them to hell. Your saying " It doesnt say children go to heaven and it does say that you need Jesus so kids must go to hell". When we die our physical age might not even be the same. I believe that you need to be able to understand things before you get judged on them.
I know what you believe. You believe that the bible is literally true, and everything in it is correct. Yet when I show you passages from the bible that disagree with what you are saying here, you just ignore it. Get with the program here.

JaMDuDe wrote:

Its possible that there is some bacteria life on planets but not advanced life. We need to be in a good spot in our galaxy so we dont get sucked into a black whole or thrown into deep space by a passing star,(we are in a perfect spot in our galaxy thats perfect for studying where we are) also we need to be a certain distance from the sun so we dont get killed by solar winds or freeze and we need gas giants to protect us from asteroids. We need to be orbiting a certain type of star. There are only so many places and our galaxy where its possible. Then on top of that there needs to be good conditions on the planet so that life can survive. They gave a 1/10 chance to every trait. Thats next to impossible in itself and they still came up with that huge number.
Thank you for repeating the same information that I've already covered 3 times now. Sometimes I wonder if you even have higher brain functions, or if you simply repeat whatever is given to you. Anyway, I'm not going to argue with that again, because I already have several times. There is one interesting thing though.

"Its possible that there is some bacteria life on planets but not advanced life. "
Is it now? I thought that: "Technically life cant come together at all by itself out of nothing. Even in perfect conditions it doesnt happen." (a bullshit statement anyway, which ill get to in a minute). So there might be bacterial life on planets, but bacterial life cannot happen? Interesting logic chain there.

JaMDuDe wrote:

Cells cant come together when they are being radiated and blown up and toxic gases are everywhere. But you can say "well we cant be there to prove it so it can". That can be your argument on how life can form everywhere if you would like.
What do you consider intolerable levels of radiation and toxic gas? I give you: http://www.globalchange.umich.edu/globa … years.html

I know you probably wont even bother to read that, so here are some excerpts:

Life started to have a major impact on the environment once photosynthetic organisms evolved. These organisms, blue-green algae (picture of stromatolite, which is the rock formed by these algae), fed off atmospheric carbon dioxide and converted much of it into marine sediments consisting of the shells of sea creatures.

While photosynthetic life reduced the carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere, it also started to produce oxygen. For a long time, the oxygen produced did not build up in the atmosphere, since it was taken up by rocks, as recorded in Banded Iron Formations (BIFs; picture) and continental red beds. To this day, the majority of oxygen produced over time is locked up in the ancient "banded rock" and "red bed" formations. It was not until probably only 1 billion years ago that the reservoirs of oxidizable rock became saturated and the free oxygen stayed in the air.

Once oxygen had been produced, ultraviolet light split the molecules, producing the ozone UV shield as a by-product. Only at this point did life move out of the oceans and respiration evolved.
The Early atmosphere was probably dominated at first by water vapor, which, as the temperature dropped, would rain out and form the oceans. This would have been a deluge of truly global proportions an resulted in further reduction of CO2. Then the atmosphere was dominated by nitrogen, but there was certainly no oxygen in the early atmosphere.
and

http://www.ux1.eiu.edu/~cfjps/1400/atmos_origin.html
Second Atmosphere
Produced by volcanic out gassing.
 
Gases produced were probably similar to those created by modern volcanoes (H2O, CO2, SO2, CO, S2, Cl2, N2, H2) and NH3 (ammonia) and CH4 (methane)
No free O2 at this time (not found in volcanic gases).
Most of those gasses are incredibly harmful to most life today. So... you were saying something about life not coming into existence in toxic environments?

JaMDuDe wrote:

Technically life cant come together at all by itself out of nothing. Even in perfect conditions it doesnt happen.
And your basis for this statement is... Oh yeah. A christian website devoted to proving creationism. I would point out that scientists have been successful in creating amino acids in laboratory environments. see wikipedia's article on the origins of life

Oh, and one last thing:

JaMDuDe wrote:

Earth was perfect when adam and eve were around. Ozone is man-made.
You should watch what you type. Saying things like that will get you laughed out of a serious discussion.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6737|Canberra, AUS
Cells cant come together when they are being radiated and blown up and toxic gases are everywhere. But you can say "well we cant be there to prove it so it can". That can be your argument on how life can form everywhere if you would like.


I don't blame you for thinking this: but there are bacteria who can survive the most incredible conditions. Let's see:

1. Edson Bastin and Frank Greer isolated strains of bacteria from oil wells at a depth of 600 METRES. That is some feat - but not to bacteria. There is probably more life under the earth than on top of it.

2. They have the ability to shut down than restart when times are good. The record for a reactivation: Russel Vreeland successfully reactivated bacteria that was 250 MILLION YEARS OLD. That, I have to say, is older than a large part of the earth.

3. Scientists in Australia found microbes called Thiobacillius concretivorans which can't live without concentrations of sulfuric acid strong enough to dissolve METAL. Ooh.

4. Bacteria have been found in pools of caustic soda, in pools of holy-crap-it's-cold water in ANTARCTICA, even 11km beneath the surface where the pressure is comparable to being squashed under 50 747s.

5. 3rd place: A species, Micrococcus radiophilus, was found in the waste tanks of NUCLEAR REACTORS, happily feasting on whatever was around.

6. 2nd place: A species, Deinoccus radiodurans is virutally immune to radioactivity. Blast it with radiation and the pieces form like limbs in a horror movie. That's freaky.

7. 1st place: A common Strepcoccus bacterium - nothing special bout that - was found in the sealed lens of a camera that had stood on the MOON for two years. They are hardy things.

So, I don't think life is all that impossible at all.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
yerded
Bertinator
+255|6699|Westminster, California
Religion is a primitive concept practiced by tortured beings who can't deal with the mystery of death
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6737|Canberra, AUS
Uh?

There are some religions who deal with the mystery of death very well, thanks.

Yet another babbled load of tripe...
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6834|PNW

JaMDuDe wrote:

AIDs wouldnt be around if everyone waited til marriage.
Says who?

Sure, I'm Christian. I believe in marriage and creation and all that...but I don't believe in opinion-based junk science. I hate to just pick on one person here when everybody is doing it...but come on.

jimmanycricket wrote:

Now if we were an average life suporting planet,like the atheists presume then why is everyday not a fight for survival why is everything so perfect.
Tell that to people and other creatures to whom every day is a fight for survival.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-04-30 21:46:10)

Daysniper
Member
+42|6698
JaMDuDe could be right about the hurricanes, that is currently being debated in many meterological establishments.

And when and why did we start talking about life on Venus? What does this have anything to do with religion or the previous arguments? Just a question .
jimmanycricket
EBC Member
+56|6718|Cambridge, England
i am mearly playing devils advocate here but can DNA exist without a cell, and can a cell exist without DNA.
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6757|San Francisco
Yes DNA can exist without a cell (use some organic chemistry to string together deoxyribonucleic acid.  You need de-oxy glucose, a phosphate group, and the four nucleotide molecules).

Yes, a cell can exist with no DNA (Red Blood cells are anucleate, plus any of the rest of our erythrocytes).

And Jamdude...your comment on AIDS is just fucking ridiculous and ignorant.  I can't believe people actually believe that...or are you just pulling that statement out of one of your christian sites?
JaMDuDe
Member
+69|6840
AIDs would be around but if everyone waited until marriage to have sex it wouldnt have spread like wild fire.

Skruples, you dont believe that Jesus did miracles and i do. I see that there were witnesses and nobody ever saw him mess up a "trick".

Not all other religions are the work of satan. But he does try to get people away from God any way he can.

Im not talking about people being tricked into seing miracles like john edwards tricks people into believing him. Im talking about 500 people seing Jesus after He died.

God does do miracles and things today, but you chose not to believe them.

God did do those things. But everyone who those things happened to were evil. He warned pharoah before all the first born were killed, and all the people who followed God got there firstborns saved. Your just showing us what God did without showing the reason or how it was done.

Who do you suppose made the planets with this possible bacteria on them? Our planet is perfect for observation and science. Why would He make everything in space COMPLETELY lifeless?

This is from wiki, "Simple organic molecules are of course a long way from a fully functional self-replicating life form"

THE O-ZONE HOLE IS MAN-MADE FROM POLLUTION. NOT THE OZONE ITSELF.
jimmanycricket
EBC Member
+56|6718|Cambridge, England
dont be stupid, if man didnt exist there would still be a whole in the ozone layer but it may be reduced in size.
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6729

jimmanycricket wrote:

dont be stupid, if man didnt exist there would still be a whole in the ozone layer but it may be reduced in size.
Ah, have to disagree w/ you on this one.  It is widely reported that WE have depleted the ozone layer. 
Back up your statement please.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6727|NT, like Mick Dundee

I don't like fundamentalists. That said, I use the Bible (the New Testament that is...) as a moral compass and it guides me quite well. I believe in God, because the more I study science the harder it gets for me to believe that it was all a coincidence. I am certain that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution was correct and nothing in any religion has ever led me to believe otherwise. Sadly we have fundamentalists in this world causing crap (that guy in the U.S. of A. I keep hearing about along with all the extremist muslim clerics...).

Completely off topic but... Where did AIDS and the HIV virus come from? I would be interested to know but couldn't be bothered researching it (senior years schooling... To much bloody research already...).
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6729

Flecco wrote:

I don't like fundamentalists. That said, I use the Bible (the New Testament that is...) as a moral compass and it guides me quite well. I believe in God, because the more I study science the harder it gets for me to believe that it was all a coincidence. I am certain that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution was correct and nothing in any religion has ever led me to believe otherwise. Sadly we have fundamentalists in this world causing crap (that guy in the U.S. of A. I keep hearing about along with all the extremist muslim clerics...).

Completely off topic but... Where did AIDS and the HIV virus come from? I would be interested to know but couldn't be bothered researching it (senior years schooling... To much bloody research already...).
Memory serves that HIV came from Africa and was orignally transmitted from a monkey?
Don't flame me if I'm way off.
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6763

JaMDuDe wrote:

AIDs would be around but if everyone waited until marriage to have sex it wouldnt have spread like wild fire.
I'm guessing you havent hit puberty.

JaMDuDe wrote:

Skruples, you dont believe that Jesus did miracles and i do. I see that there were witnesses and nobody ever saw him mess up a "trick".
You're right, I dont believe that he performed miracles. Or at the very least, I don't believe that the 'miracles' he performed were the result of supernatural powers. And how do you know he never messed up? Were you there? Did he cure your leprosy? Or are you again just blindly believing whats written in the Bible?

JaMDuDe wrote:

Not all other religions are the work of satan. But he does try to get people away from God any way he can.
Your point of view when it comes to any religion other than your own is tragically shortsighted.

JaMDuDe wrote:

Im not talking about people being tricked into seing miracles like john edwards tricks people into believing him. Im talking about 500 people seing Jesus after He died.
You seem to be incapable of connecting the dots on this issue. People can and will believe some pretty insane things if given the right impetus. How do you know Jesus was dead? Was there a doctor in the audience? Did someone take his pulse, measure his brain activity with an electroencelograph? Or did he just stop moving and someone said 'oh, hes dead'? You take for granted that every single word in the Bible is literally true and without error, without any evidence to substantiate it.

JaMDuDe wrote:

God does do miracles and things today, but you chose not to believe them.
Does He? I haven't noticed any rivers turning to blood, or cities being incinerated, or people turning into pillars of salt lately. Would you care to show us these miracles? Oh wait, you already did, lets see...

JaMDuDe wrote:

Yeah there are those kinds of "miracles" but there are other ones, like people running from a pow camp where there getting torchered and they come up to a mountain they know they cannot get over and they put their head down and they look up and are on the other side. There was one in my church im not 100% sure on all the details but while everyone was praying a homeless guy showed up, they fed him cleaned him up and dropped him off at a homeless shelter and watched him go in. Awhile later they went to check on him and the shelter said nobody ever came through the door. There are a lot of miracles that werent just incredible "chance" like cancer going away.
I think this falls under the 'people will believe some pretty insane things' category.

JaMDuDe wrote:

God did do those things. But everyone who those things happened to were evil. He warned pharoah before all the first born were killed, and all the people who followed God got there firstborns saved. Your just showing us what God did without showing the reason or how it was done.
Whoah! Logic alert! You were just telling us all about how infants and children cant go to hell, but now all of a sudden they're evil? Do you even look at what you type before you hit submit? Did the infant children of the people of Egypt really deserve death? Do you seriously believe that every living person on the planet except Noah and his family were evil? Are you that ignorant?

JaMDuDe wrote:

Who do you suppose made the planets with this possible bacteria on them? Our planet is perfect for observation and science. Why would He make everything in space COMPLETELY lifeless?
I don't think anyone made those planets. I think they are the result of a very gradual process involving gravity, and you have shown no evidence to the contrary. You keep mentioning how our planet is perfect for observation and science. Would you care to explain this? What are we observing that we could not observe from any other position in the solar system, or the galaxy for that matter? What is it about our planet that makes science possible as opposed to any number of other planets? Explain your statements please.

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