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Poll

Do You Consider Yourself A US citizen Or A Citizen Of Your State?

I identify more with National Citizenship86%86% - 33
I identify more with State/local Citizenship13%13% - 5
Total: 38
2010-05-29 12:03:20
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

The referendum system means people vote low taxes and high services. That defines directly what the tax scheme is and indirectly what industries come into the state.
Yes, but if there wasn't a referendum system, you could still have the benefits people desired, but you'd have the taxes necessary for them.  That's the problem.  The people don't want to pay for what they're asking for, and that's not an issue with the economic system itself -- it's an issue with the political system allowing people to have the illusion that they don't have to pay for what they ask for.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

rdx didn't say anchors on our economy. He said anchors. Money isn't everything.
Anchors on what then?  His way of thinking?

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Since when?
Since the FBI compiled statistics on it.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm

In 2008, Texas had the 10th highest overall violent/property crime rate per 100,000 people among U.S. states and D.C.  Now, admittedly, they seem to be going down from their high of 7th highest in 2005.  So, if nothing else, they are headed in the right direction.

Also, I admit that my state isn't exactly exemplary in crime either.  NC has risen to the 8th highest crime rate, which is the highest we've ever been.  We're clearly moving in the wrong direction.

However, take a look at NJ, for example.  They have gone down to the 45th highest crime rate.  Sure, you're not going to want to visit Camden anytime soon, but NJ overall is much safer than Texas.
2010-05-29 12:04:49
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

rdx-fx wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Second, rdx's logic is pretty flawed if he's still suggesting that the states he listed out are "anchors" on our economy.  Yes, they have debt issues, but again, they each make up a large part of the GDP in productivity.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

rdx didn't say anchors on our economy. He said anchors. Money isn't everything.
1) The California government's ideology of 'spend beyond our means' is unworkable.  That is the overweight anchor that will sink the country.  Washington DC seems to have already caught that illness too.  If the country follows California's ideological lead, that ideology of government will sink the country.


"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship."

Alexander Fraser Tyler, "The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic"
I can agree with that regarding California, but that's not just the mentality of their people, that's because they have a referendum system.

If you implemented the same system in just about ANY state, you'd end up with the same results.

The people of California are no more shortsighted than anyone else.
2010-05-29 12:07:34
rdx-fx
...
+955|6877

Turquoise wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Second, rdx's logic is pretty flawed if he's still suggesting that the states he listed out are "anchors" on our economy.  Yes, they have debt issues, but again, they each make up a large part of the GDP in productivity.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

rdx didn't say anchors on our economy. He said anchors. Money isn't everything.
1) The California government's ideology of 'spend beyond our means' is unworkable.  That is the overweight anchor that will sink the country.  Washington DC seems to have already caught that illness too.  If the country follows California's ideological lead, that ideology of government will sink the country.


"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship."

Alexander Fraser Tyler, "The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic"
I can agree with that regarding California, but that's not just the mentality of their people, that's because they have a referendum system.

If you implemented the same system in just about ANY state, you'd end up with the same results.

The people of California are no more shortsighted than anyone else.
Probably.  But I really don't want to try it and find out.
2010-05-29 12:10:24
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

rdx-fx wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Second, rdx's logic is pretty flawed if he's still suggesting that the states he listed out are "anchors" on our economy.  Yes, they have debt issues, but again, they each make up a large part of the GDP in productivity.
1) The California government's ideology of 'spend beyond our means' is unworkable.  That is the overweight anchor that will sink the country.  Washington DC seems to have already caught that illness too.  If the country follows California's ideological lead, that ideology of government will sink the country.


"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship."

Alexander Fraser Tyler, "The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic"
I can agree with that regarding California, but that's not just the mentality of their people, that's because they have a referendum system.

If you implemented the same system in just about ANY state, you'd end up with the same results.

The people of California are no more shortsighted than anyone else.
Probably.  But I really don't want to try it and find out.
Neither do I...  lol.. 

Again, I'm not saying that the referendum system is the way to go, but you can't judge the economic worth of a state on its flawed political system.  If you get rid of the referendum system, a lot of California's dysfunctionality goes away.

Now, granted, I'm not saying it is going away anytime soon.  If it doesn't, then giving them independence might not be a bad thing.
2010-05-29 12:26:44
rdx-fx
...
+955|6877

Turquoise wrote:

I can agree with that regarding California, but that's not just the mentality of their people, that's because they have a referendum system.

If you implemented the same system in just about ANY state, you'd end up with the same results.

The people of California are no more shortsighted than anyone else.
California people are probably the same species as the rest of the planet:  do their job, come home, take care of home & family, try to ignore the greed and corruption of their politicians, and just live their lives.

Go to any country in the world, and people are essentially, just like that.  Major cultural differences stacked on top of it, but boiled down to fundamentals, it is remarkably consistent.

The way I understand the California referendum system, it seems like it is analogous to a simple lab rat experiment;
Push the green button - one of your fellow lab rats gets an extra food pellet. push the red button - noone gets an extra food pellet
Sounds great, until you note the minor detail that the extra food pellets are Lab Rat Soylent Green
2010-05-29 12:28:38
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina
Yep...  it's why a democratic republic is much better than direct democracy. 
2010-05-29 12:48:22
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6992|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

The referendum system means people vote low taxes and high services. That defines directly what the tax scheme is and indirectly what industries come into the state.
Yes, but if there wasn't a referendum system, you could still have the benefits people desired, but you'd have the taxes necessary for them.  That's the problem.  The people don't want to pay for what they're asking for, and that's not an issue with the economic system itself -- it's an issue with the political system allowing people to have the illusion that they don't have to pay for what they ask for.
You realize that taxes would go up if the referendum system is removed. Why you fail to realize the size of the impact this would have on the economy of California is what I don't understand. Businesses go there because taxes are low and benefits are high. They wouldn't go there if taxes were high and benefits were high.  The economic system would change drastically to something that is actually stable.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Since when?
Since the FBI compiled statistics on it.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/txcrime.htm

In 2008, Texas had the 10th highest overall violent/property crime rate per 100,000 people among U.S. states and D.C.  Now, admittedly, they seem to be going down from their high of 7th highest in 2005.  So, if nothing else, they are headed in the right direction.

Also, I admit that my state isn't exactly exemplary in crime either.  NC has risen to the 8th highest crime rate, which is the highest we've ever been.  We're clearly moving in the wrong direction.

However, take a look at NJ, for example.  They have gone down to the 45th highest crime rate.  Sure, you're not going to want to visit Camden anytime soon, but NJ overall is much safer than Texas.
To get a more full picture:

article wrote:

In the year 2000 Texas had an estimated population of 20,851,820 which ranked the state 2nd in population. For that year the State of Texas had a total Crime Index of 4,955.5 reported incidents per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 8th highest total Crime Index. For Violent Crime Texas had a reported incident rate of 545.1 per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 13th highest occurrence for Violent Crime among the states. For crimes against Property, the state had a reported incident rate of 4,410.4 per 100,000 people, which ranked as the state 10th highest. Also in the year 2000 Texas had 5.9 Murders per 100,000 people, ranking the state as having the 17th highest rate for Murder. Texas’s 37.7 reported Forced Rapes per 100,000 people, ranked the state 17th highest. For Robbery, per 100,000 people, Texas’s rate was 145.1 which ranked the state as having the 16th highest for Robbery. The state also had 356.3 Aggravated Assaults for every 100,000 people, which indexed the state as having the 13th highest position for this crime among the states. For every 100,000 people there were 906.3 Burglaries, which ranks Texas as having the 12th highest standing among the states. Larceny - Theft were reported 3,057.4 times per hundred thousand people in Texas which standing is the 10th highest among the states. Vehicle Theft occurred 446.8 times per 100,000 people, which fixed the state as having the 13th highest for vehicle theft among the states
High, hardly the highest. It certainly says little unless you look at the entirety of the rankings to see some sort of trend.
2010-05-29 13:43:15
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5643|London, England

rdx-fx wrote:

1) The California government's ideology of 'spend beyond our means' is unworkable.  That is the overweight anchor that will sink the country.  Washington DC seems to have already caught that illness too.  If the country follows California's ideological lead, that ideology of government will sink the country.


"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the Public Treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the Public Treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy always followed by dictatorship."

Alexander Fraser Tyler, "The Decline and Fall of the Athenian Republic"
You know what the funny thing is? You've got the same conform or die mentality that the liberals you hate so much have. Any policy you don't like is dismissable, just like any policy proposed by a conservative is considered to be scoff worthy from a liberal standpoint.

I like having different states with different ideologies. It means there is competition and I can choose where to live. I have no plans of living in California during my lifetime so the policies they institute have no bearing on my life. You happen to like living in Montana or Alaska, fine, the life in those places is far too slow for me. I don't enjoy spending hours next to a stream repeatedly casting with a fly fishing rod. Doesn't interest me. I like the fact that I can walk three blocks and get Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, Italian, Jewish, Korean and American food. I like that on the same street my bank is located, my pharmacy, the deli I like to get sandwiches at, my barber, a competing bank, a home goods store etc. Everything is super convenient and my greatest joy in life is not the fifty mile drive to the nearest Walmart on a Saturday afternoon.

All of this doesn't make my lifestyle better than yours, just different. You need to accept that there are people in this world different from you instead of hating them or being afraid of them or whatever else you have going on in your head.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2010-05-29 14:36:41
13/f/taiwan
Member
+940|5984

JohnG@lt wrote:

All of this doesn't make my lifestyle better than yours, just different. You need to accept that there are people in this world different from you instead of hating them or being afraid of them or whatever else you have going on in your head.
Well said.
2010-05-29 15:49:59
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

You realize that taxes would go up if the referendum system is removed. Why you fail to realize the size of the impact this would have on the economy of California is what I don't understand. Businesses go there because taxes are low and benefits are high. They wouldn't go there if taxes were high and benefits were high.  The economic system would change drastically to something that is actually stable.
No disagreement here, FM.  Taxes going up or benefits going down, so as to balance the budget, is a good thing.  Stability is more important than growth in the long run.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

To get a more full picture:

article wrote:

In the year 2000 Texas had an estimated population of 20,851,820 which ranked the state 2nd in population. For that year the State of Texas had a total Crime Index of 4,955.5 reported incidents per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 8th highest total Crime Index. For Violent Crime Texas had a reported incident rate of 545.1 per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 13th highest occurrence for Violent Crime among the states. For crimes against Property, the state had a reported incident rate of 4,410.4 per 100,000 people, which ranked as the state 10th highest. Also in the year 2000 Texas had 5.9 Murders per 100,000 people, ranking the state as having the 17th highest rate for Murder. Texas’s 37.7 reported Forced Rapes per 100,000 people, ranked the state 17th highest. For Robbery, per 100,000 people, Texas’s rate was 145.1 which ranked the state as having the 16th highest for Robbery. The state also had 356.3 Aggravated Assaults for every 100,000 people, which indexed the state as having the 13th highest position for this crime among the states. For every 100,000 people there were 906.3 Burglaries, which ranks Texas as having the 12th highest standing among the states. Larceny - Theft were reported 3,057.4 times per hundred thousand people in Texas which standing is the 10th highest among the states. Vehicle Theft occurred 446.8 times per 100,000 people, which fixed the state as having the 13th highest for vehicle theft among the states
High, hardly the highest. It certainly says little unless you look at the entirety of the rankings to see some sort of trend.
10th highest overall out of 50 states and D.C. is pretty high.
2010-05-29 16:34:50
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6992|67.222.138.85
But who is higher? Is there even a correlation between our economic system and our crime, much less is the economic system the actual cause?
2010-05-29 16:56:43
RTHKI
mmmf mmmf mmmf
+1,743|7022|Cinncinatti
Never really think of myself as Ohioan, until its election time. .
https://i.imgur.com/tMvdWFG.png
2010-05-29 17:15:09
War Man
Australians are hermaphrodites.
+564|6999|Purplicious Wisconsin
American first.
The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.
2010-05-29 17:27:55
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6866|the dank(super) side of Oregon
only people who would really care about state identity are the socialists in Alaska.
2010-05-29 17:31:45
War Man
Australians are hermaphrodites.
+564|6999|Purplicious Wisconsin

Reciprocity wrote:

only people who would really care about state identity are the socialists in Alaska.
Socialists? You referring to democrats in Alaska?
The irony of guns, is that they can save lives.
2010-05-29 17:34:37
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5544|foggy bottom

War Man wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

only people who would really care about state identity are the socialists in Alaska.
Socialists? You referring to democrats in Alaska?
he's referring to something you dont know anything about.  this is grown folks talking here.
Tu Stultus Es
2010-05-29 17:47:54
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6866|the dank(super) side of Oregon

War Man wrote:

Reciprocity wrote:

only people who would really care about state identity are the socialists in Alaska.
Socialists? You referring to democrats in Alaska?
dumb beaver.
2010-05-29 18:23:29
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

But who is higher? Is there even a correlation between our economic system and our crime, much less is the economic system the actual cause?
Well, let's take a look...

1. D.C. - this is a no brainer, because when comparing states to a large, densely populated city, the city is usually going to be worse in crime
2. South Carolina - high poverty rate with low taxes and underfunded social programs
3. Florida - high poverty rate with low taxes in most areas
4. Tennessee - high poverty rate with no income tax, high sales taxes (often around 15%), and underfunded social programs
5. Arizona - high illegal immigrant population, high poverty rate
6. New Mexico - high poverty rate and underfunded social programs
7. Alabama - high poverty rate, low taxes, and underfunded social programs
8. North Carolina - high poverty rate, high illegal immigrant population
9. Georgia - high poverty rate, low taxes in most areas, and underfunded social programs
10. Texas - high poverty rate, low taxes, underfunded social programs, and high illegal immigrant population

So, more than anything, the poverty rate matters.  Beyond that, social programs matter.  Social programs require a certain amount of taxation -- typically more than these particular states gather for their systems.

Granted, D.C. is another animal altogether...

Last edited by Turquoise (2010-05-29 18:23:57)

2010-05-29 18:24:51
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6992|67.222.138.85
Before I have even looked at it, source?

With the exception of South Carolina, you essentially named every state that has a part of the U.S.'s southernmost border. Why lack of social programs and not immigration? What about the breadbasket states?
2010-05-29 18:40:04
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5987|College Park, MD
Technically I'm not a citizen

But I consider myself an American before a Marylander, even though my avatar is the Maryland flag.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
2010-05-29 18:46:34
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6690|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Before I have even looked at it, source?

With the exception of South Carolina, you essentially named every state that has a part of the U.S.'s southernmost border. Why lack of social programs and not immigration? What about the breadbasket states?
http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/

The statistics come from the FBI Uniform Crime Report.

Now, admittedly, from the FBI's own website, they discuss how the rankings work and how many variables are in play.  http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2008/about/v … crime.html
2010-05-30 11:11:19
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5871

Turquoise wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Well, if we could sell off New York, California, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Illinois, and Florida - then 'American' wouldn't need qualification.

As it currently stands, the overinflated sense of entitlement and generally Orwellian nanny-state culture in California, Chicago, and New York makes it embarrassing to claim them as part of the same United States as the rest of us.

Unfortunately, we cannot divest ourselves of irresponsible over-indulgent non-self-sufficient states.  So, in that respect, the US Constitution is a suicide pact.  We have to keep those boat-anchor states, even if they're going to sink the country.
Um...  You do realize that, on average, blue states tend to be more productive than red ones.  Texas is the exception to that rule.

The following is a chart of what each state gets back from the government per every dollar that each puts in.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2165/299 … 8ffb_o.gif

Now, it is true that some highly productive states are terrible at debt management (like California), but that has less to do with personalities and more to do with ridiculous systems in place (like California's referendum system).
Apparently New Jersey is the most efficient state in the union.

 

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