Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6406|North Carolina
In the U.K. election thread, the discussion veered off into the realm of discussing interventionist foreign policy vs. the desire for less intervention among Europe's populace.  This got me thinking about how societal attitudes toward interventionism develop and are affected by the world's power balance.

My argument is that Western citizens view interventionism in a way that is dependent on their own country's power.  It's easy to see that Americans generally support more military interventionism in the world today than most Europeans do.  Some claim this is a cultural thing, but I think it goes beyond that.

America has gone through several periods of alternating between interventionism and isolationism.

Our interventionist periods are generally well known.  The Monroe Doctrine was one of the first major policies set forth by us to address interventionism and helped underline our suspicions concerning European interventionism at the time.  Manifest Destiny was the mindset for our expansion across the continent while displacing Native Americans.  Eventually, we went to war with Mexico.  Half a century later, we entered an interventionist period where we annexed Hawaii and went to war with Spain -- acquiring land in the Caribbean and the Pacific in the aftermath.

All the while during this, Europe was interventionist as well, but the significance of their interventionism was that they were much more more powerful relative to the world than they are today, in terms of militaries.  By WWI, things were changing significantly.  America was recognized as a major military power with its contributions to WWI, but understandably, we were reluctant to get involved in a European war yet again with WWII.

It's hard to fathom this now, but FDR had to try hard to sell getting involved in WWII to the American public.  There was strong opposition to it stemming from memories of WWI.  After WWII, things changed dramatically when it came to the world's power balance militarily.  The Cold War established that only 2 countries truly stood at the top of the power spectrum: the U.S. and Russia.  China and the U.K. were still significant, but not quite at the same level of power.

This was very different from the paradigm of the colonial period.  From about 1500 to 1800, Europe was, without question, home to the most militarily powerful nations on the planet.  The U.S. slowly rose in power during the 1800s, but it wasn't really until after WWI that the world's balance of power changed to the point of altering people's preferences in policy.

Nowadays, most Europeans seem to prefer less interventionism as compared to Americans, but again, I think this is only because of the current power balance.  If America was less powerful, then our people would probably lean more towards isolationism.  Since Europe has been waning in military power for the last several decades relative to Russia and China, it's understandable that they would be more isolationist instead.

Generally speaking, the most isolationist countries tend to be the smallest ones, most likely because of their lack of military power.

One of our earliest Vice Presidents seemed to sum up the consequences of a large military well -- "A standing army is like a standing member.  It's an excellent assurance of domestic tranquility, but a dangerous temptation to foreign adventure."  -- Elbridge Gerry

So, I guess my question is...  Is the level of interventionism in a society's foreign policy less based on culture and more based on relative level of military power?
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5359|London, England
It's based almost entirely on relative power level. Most people are calculating to one degree or another and will pounce if they feel they have odds on their side. Whether it's in business, shopping in a department store, or a bar fight, people do not generally attack from a position of weakness. To use the department store metaphor, people enjoy buying things during sales because it not only saves them money, but they get the feeling that they are 'pulling one over' on the store. Those that wait and only shop during sales are profiting at the expense of the store. Yes, it's kind of a weak metaphor but it's the best I could come up with on short notice

Now, there are some exceptions. Germany, for instance, is still dealing with the stigma from Hitler and WWII and it's become ingrained in their culture to shun military might (which is rather stunning because Germans have always been war-like people).
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6708|67.222.138.85
Well if you're droppin a realpolitik bomb on us here then of course man and by extension nations are going to do whatever they can get away with. Interventionist/isolationist policy is shaped by individual issues, with politicians pontificating on theory only so far as it helps them justify their stance on the issue. Morality has nothing to do with it.

Now if the biggest kid on the block grew some brains and some balls and decided that everyone should shut the fuck up and keep to themselves, and had an arsenal of thousands of ballistic devices that could be fired across continents with devastating results, now that would be interesting.

/sigh

"Commerce with all nations, alliance with none, should be our motto." -Thomas Jefferson

/le sigh
Balok77
Member
+28|6149
Historically speaking smaller countries were in fact more likely to seek expansionist policies e.g. Germany and Italy after unification. So therefore 'interventionism' is far more based on political standing than anything else i.e. they sought national prestige and pride through military action rather than facing internal divisions. 

I would disagree with you consensus on European power. The majority of continental Europe is against involvement in foreign affairs. Militarily and economically you still have some of the most powerful nations on earth, therefore why wouldn't they want to be involved if these were the sole factors?

If military strength is the reason for an interventionist policy why is China, arguably the second most powerful nation on earth,  involved militarily and financially in far less countries than the U.S?

Therefore I would say its far more of cultural thing than anything else. America for the last fifty years has been the world's policeman, in the same way Metternich was for Europe during the early 19th century. Therefore why change policy unless you are forced to? Austria was usurped by Prussia. Will be interesting to see what will happen to the U.S.A.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6406|North Carolina

Balok77 wrote:

Historically speaking smaller countries were in fact more likely to seek expansionist policies e.g. Germany and Italy after unification. So therefore 'interventionism' is far more based on political standing than anything else i.e. they sought national prestige and pride through military action rather than facing internal divisions. 

I would disagree with you consensus on European power. The majority of continental Europe is against involvement in foreign affairs. Militarily and economically you still have some of the most powerful nations on earth, therefore why wouldn't they want to be involved if these were the sole factors?
Because we inadvertently serve their interests in some of our intervention.  Europe does still get involved, but to a lesser extent than America, as shown by their involvement in both Iraq (Coalition of the Willing) and Afghanistan.

Balok77 wrote:

If military strength is the reason for an interventionist policy why is China, arguably the second most powerful nation on earth,  involved militarily and financially in far less countries than the U.S?
Militarily, you have a point.  Financially, that's not true at all.  China is very economically interventionist -- especially in Africa and South America.

China also holds a lot of influence in our banking, while they also influence Australia quite a bit.

I think part of the reason China doesn't get involved as much militarily is because we have a history of countering their involvement.

Balok77 wrote:

Therefore I would say its far more of cultural thing than anything else. America for the last fifty years has been the world's policeman, in the same way Metternich was for Europe during the early 19th century. Therefore why change policy unless you are forced to? Austria was usurped by Prussia. Will be interesting to see what will happen to the U.S.A.
Part of why I specifically referenced Western countries is that Western culture does favor interventionism more than non-Western cultures oftentimes.  So, to that extent, culture is a factor.  Still, I wanted to focus on differences between Western cultures on interventionism.
Pochsy
Artifice of Eternity
+702|5544|Toronto
Robert Kagan Of Paradise and Power...or any other damn thing he's ever written, really.

Next.

EDIT- none of you will read this book or look him up.

Yes. The relative military power a country holds in the international system determines its approach to foreign policy.

Last edited by Pochsy (2010-04-18 15:20:40)

The shape of an eye in front of the ocean, digging for stones and throwing them against its window pane. Take it down dreamer, take it down deep. - Other Families
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6773|PNW

If you're playing Hearts of Iron 2, you'd better nudge your slider to interventionism.
BVC
Member
+325|6697
Once you engage in military warfare with China, any financial leverage of theirs will become largely irrelevant.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6717

Pubic wrote:

Once you engage in military warfare with China, any financial leverage of theirs will become largely irrelevant.
Emerging markets face a risk of losing a huge customer. If lets say US puts an embargo on China today... Most business' would shift to Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia for more labour intensive work, and India for more high tech.
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Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6708|67.222.138.85

Pochsy wrote:

Robert Kagan Of Paradise and Power...or any other damn thing he's ever written, really.

Next.

EDIT- none of you will read this book or look him up.

Yes. The relative military power a country holds in the international system determines its approach to foreign policy.
Looked him up. Looked like a douche. Book looked like it was for simpletons. Rather read OP.
Trotskygrad
бля
+354|6000|Vortex Ring State

Cybargs wrote:

Pubic wrote:

Once you engage in military warfare with China, any financial leverage of theirs will become largely irrelevant.
Emerging markets face a risk of losing a huge customer. If lets say US puts an embargo on China today... Most business' would shift to Philippines, Indonesia and Malaysia for more labour intensive work, and India for more high tech.
Yeah, the other economies will adjust to accommodate the US, because the US is a large customer with a lot of money to spend, competition between these smaller countries would keep labor costs low.

As for the OP, interventionism vs. isolationism, I think that countries go in a cycle of isolationism and interventionism, interventionism increases after a long period of isolationism, and isolationism increases after a long period of interventionism. I don't think that it is depended on the power balance at all, rather it is based on the overall state of the economy.

However that applies only to smaller scale conflicts, such as Iraq and Afghanistan in which the draft is not instituted.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6406|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Pochsy wrote:

Robert Kagan Of Paradise and Power...or any other damn thing he's ever written, really.

Next.

EDIT- none of you will read this book or look him up.

Yes. The relative military power a country holds in the international system determines its approach to foreign policy.
Looked him up. Looked like a douche. Book looked like it was for simpletons. Rather read OP.
I've read some of his work.  Kagan does make some good points, and admittedly, I basically cribbed a lot of his ideas with this OP.

Where he and I dramatically differ, however, is that I generally lean against interventionism, whereas Kagan definitely supports it.  He was one of the founding members of the Project for the New American Century.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6708|67.222.138.85
I think I'll stick with Machiavelli.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6412|'Murka

I think it is dependent on power. If one has power, one is expected--both internally and externally--to use it.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
cl4u53w1t2
Salon-Bolschewist
+269|6474|Kakanien

Turquoise wrote:

So, I guess my question is...  Is the level of interventionism in a society's foreign policy less based on culture and more based on relative level of military power?
i'd say 50 percent culture, 50 percent military power

if let's say the uk or france had the same military capabilities as the us have, they would have intervened more quickly.

take the kosovo-war for example. one of the main reasons, why the big european countries (uk, france, germany, italy) didn't intervene more quickly, was their lack of military capabilities. they had to wait for the us to get the job done (even in their own backyard. or better their fore court)

but, european countries (that goes more for the population than the government) are also very reluctant to go to war because of ww1 and esp. ww2

you mustn't forget that there are still many people in europe who witnessed the 2nd world war (as combattant or as civilian). esp. here in germany, people are very reluctant in sending soldiers to war. german collective memory is well aware of the horror that is caused by wars (war crimes, suffering civilians, soldiers as cannon fodder in a meaningless war etc)

plus, it seems like the us have another basic setting when it comes to war. they seem to go with a partly misunderstood clausewitz (): "war is a mere continuation of politics by other means"

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