BF2S Forums Gunsights' Biblical References Concern US & UK forces

Turquoise wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Even as an atheist, I find this to be a non-issue.

I don't care if they had Quranic verses on them or even lines from the Satanic Bible.  If the gunsight functions like it's supposed to, what's the deal?

It's not about what the soldiers using them think, it's about how the law-abiding Muslims living in Iraq and Afghanistan perceive it... the people that the US and UK are trying to convince aren't the victims of a 'holy war'. This doesn't read well from a public image point of view.

True, but...  it certainly doesn't help that the media is making a big deal out of this.  I seriously doubt that most Muslims even picked up on the Biblical verses thing.

Dilbert makes a good point about how, if they're proud of this, why does the manufacturer choose to be somewhat sneaky about it?

Hopefully, all this means is that the military will just switch suppliers.  Inevitably, there will be some radical clerics who will try to capitalize on this, but hopefully, most Muslims are smart enough to not fall into that kind of trap.

Braddock wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

As someone else said, it's a private company and they made a good product, which the government purchases.  If the government doesn't want them on there, I'm sure they'll place that in the next contract.  Much to do about nothing tbh.

Oh and these verses are really offensive.   

2 Cor. 4:6 - For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Jn 8:12 - When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."

ruisleipa wrote:

IF a US soldier took part in an illegal war and killed someone he WOULD HAVE murdered someone THEREFORE be going to hell according to the bible/10 commandments. OK?

Ruisleipa, I suggest you study the Bible a wee bit more before making further posts on Christian beliefs.  You're quoting far too many false assumptions.  Starting at the New Testament would be a good idea.

I'm an atheist but I was raised Catholic and in Ireland we are taught "Thou Shalt Not Kill"... I was quite surprised (and disturbed) when I first found out that the US teach "Thou Shalt Not Murder" (just enough wiggle room to squeeze in a few kills). Also, didn't Jesus say to turn the other cheek? Not take aim and fire.

west-phoenix-az wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Hopefully, all this means is that the military will just switch suppliers.  Inevitably, there will be some radical clerics who will try to capitalize on this, but hopefully, most Muslims are smart enough to not fall into that kind of trap.

Who gives a shit what it says on it? Its a tool. A tool that can be the difference between life and death. If its a good tool our soldiers should be using it. A sneaky serial number is no reason to switch to a lesser product or waste money on something more expensive.

west-phoenix-az wrote:

Gunsights and optics are not the same thing. Quality optics have more technology than you probably think. They have to take a beating, keep working and stay zeroed. They aren't cheap for a reason.

Turquoise wrote:

west-phoenix-az wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Hopefully, all this means is that the military will just switch suppliers.  Inevitably, there will be some radical clerics who will try to capitalize on this, but hopefully, most Muslims are smart enough to not fall into that kind of trap.

Who gives a shit what it says on it? Its a tool. A tool that can be the difference between life and death. If its a good tool our soldiers should be using it. A sneaky serial number is no reason to switch to a lesser product or waste money on something more expensive.

Well, like I said...  I don't give a shit about it myself, but as Braddock explained, I can see how others might.

So, going with that rationale, it might be a better PR move to switch suppliers.  I don't see how it would be that hard to find a suitable competitor.  Gunsights aren't exactly state of the art technology, and I seriously doubt that Trijicon is the only supplier that could satisfy our needs for a good price.

In short, it's capitalism working as it should.

Turquoise wrote:

Granted, that does show a rather sad tendency for them to be angry and helps demonstrate how easy it is to manipulate many Muslims through anybody who's stuck on religion and tradition.

Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I made the religious analogy--and then pointed out that both are meaningless in the grand scheme of things. He made the "we're not as bad as them" analogy--essentially putting words in my mouth. Two completely different things.

No, you spoke the words about shopping centres yourself, not that they have really been a significant feature at any time of this conflict.
The Christian and Moslem extremists have from day one, its just the Christians have been less honest about it.

FEOS wrote:

Christian extremists have had fuckall to do with this war, Dilbert, no matter how you try to spin it.

Get file.

Remove 4-7 characters from sight.

Problem solved.

RAIMIUS wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

As someone else said, it's a private company and they made a good product, which the government purchases.  If the government doesn't want them on there, I'm sure they'll place that in the next contract.  Much to do about nothing tbh.

Oh and these verses are really offensive.   

2 Cor. 4:6 - For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Jn 8:12 - When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."


Ruisleipa, I suggest you study the Bible a wee bit more before making further posts on Christian beliefs.  You're quoting far too many false assumptions.  Starting at the New Testament would be a good idea.

I'm an atheist but I was raised Catholic and in Ireland we are taught "Thou Shalt Not Kill"... I was quite surprised (and disturbed) when I first found out that the US teach "Thou Shalt Not Murder" (just enough wiggle room to squeeze in a few kills). Also, didn't Jesus say to turn the other cheek? Not take aim and fire.

It's not the US teaching it that way, it is the more accurate translation from the original texts.
Do you think God would have ordered David to break the rules He created?  It doesn't make sense.  Now, if it is translated as "murder," all the warfare in the Old Testament can potentially be justified (based on the standards of the time).

Last edited by Braddock (2010-01-22 04:44:26)

Earlier in the week, the Church of England told the UK's Guardian newspaper: "People of all faiths and none are being killed and injured in these ­conflicts, on all sides, and any suggestion that this is being done in the name of the Bible would be deeply worrying to many ­Christians."

Last edited by Mekstizzle (2010-01-22 06:15:26)

US firm to remove Biblical references on gunsights

A US military contractor has said it will stop engraving Biblical references on rifles used by the US army.

The markings, in the form of coded references, have been appearing on products made by the US firm Trijicon, based in Michigan, for decades.

But on Thursday, US military chief Gen David Petraeus, said the practice of scripture references was "disturbing" and "a serious concern".

The firm also sells the gunsights to Australia, New Zealand and the UK.

The inscriptions - which include "2COR4:6" and "JN8:12", relating to verses in the books of II Corinthians and John - appear in raised lettering at the end of the stock number.

The company pledged to remove the inscription reference on all products destined for the US military yet to be shipped and ensure all future procurements from the department of defence are produced without scripture references.

Religious sensitivities

It also said it would provide 100 modification kits to forces in the field to remove the references.

"Trijicon has proudly served the US military for more than two decades, and our decision to offer to voluntarily remove these references is both prudent and appropriate," the firm, founded by a devout Christian, said in a statement released on Friday.

The references - first reported on by ABC News - had raised concerns that they broke a US rules barring troops proselytising in the predominantly Muslim countries of Afghanistan and Iraq, where they are widely used by both the US and British military.

Gen Petraeus, head of the US Central Command, said: "Cultural and religious sensitivities are important considerations in the conduct of military operations."

In a letter sent to the US president on Thursday, the head of the Interfaith Alliance said the gunsights "clearly violate" the rule.

"Images of American soldiers as Christian crusaders come to mind when they are carrying weaponry bearing such verses," Welton Gaddy said.

Earlier in the week, the Church of England told the UK's Guardian newspaper: "People of all faiths and none are being killed and injured in these ­conflicts, on all sides, and any suggestion that this is being done in the name of the Bible would be deeply worrying to many ­Christians."

On Thursday, New Zealand's defence ministry said it was in talks with Trijicon about the best way to remove the markings without damaging the sights.

Australia too is reportedly assessing how best to respond.

SEREVENT wrote:

11 Bravo wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

You may be moving in that direction, but every survey and report I've ever seen on the subjects ranks the US as the most religious western (wealthy) nation, and from experience it also has the most vocal people in the industry.

nobody i know (friends) go to church or anything like that.

You're quite the popular chap then lol.

How can you not know one person that goes to Church?