Braddock
Agitator
+916|6581|Éire

Phrozenbot wrote:

So is your moderate view more based on getting the best of both worlds, or protecting yourself from the worst of both world?
Both would be nice.

Phrozenbot wrote:

The EU is in a serious financial crisis right now with the PIGS states, and with other eastern European nations. I certainly understand where you are coming from in that perspective, however I don't think all the regulation in the world would have caught what is happening now over there. The housing bubble wasn't just in the US, it's pretty much worldwide. In fact, it's more than a housing issue. The credit provided by banks via fractional reserve lending and central banks has allowed a limitless supply of credit that spends like money, but isn't truly money. The global economy has been spending more than it produces, hence the global downturn.
As I've said before I'm no economist, I have a layman's perspective on the issue and even less of a point of view on the more intricate aspects of the US and wider global situation. But regarding the Irish situation, the financial regulator has been revealed as a paper tiger that allowed all sorts of corrupt practices to take place during the Celtic Tiger. Banks were allowed to do as they please with no checks or balances (including in one instance to loan out money which was then used to buy shares in the very same bank that just loaned the money), loans were given to people who were anything but safe financial bets, more and more loans were given out to property dealers as a result of pure greed. Responsible oversight and codes of practice could have helped offset many of these issues but nobody wanted to rock the boat when times were 'good'.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6907|do not disturb

Braddock wrote:

nobody wanted to rock the boat when times were 'good'.
This is one fact we can't get around. Firstly no one believes a naysayer when things are good, and even if they do, who has the courage to investigate fraud while times are 'good'? It's only when everything hits the fan, the people demand answers and the government starts to investigate and putting in place regulation so it hopefully never happens again.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,983|6923|949

Phrozenbot wrote:

Concerning the housing bubble, the government forced banks to make shoddy loans with the community reinvestment act. GSE's like Fannie and Freddie were supposed to create 'affordable' housing, yet they were guaranteeing half of all mortgages where most subprime borrowers couldn't even make pay on the interest, let alone the principle. Is it really no surprise that on the case-shiller S&P index, home prices (inflation adjusted) on a national average doubled for the first time since...ever? And who provided the money? I remember interest rates being ridiculously low, thanks to the Federal Reserve.

Ok, but your point about MBS, derivatives and such. No, the government didn't force anyone to partake in such reckless behavior. Those were negative credit schemes to find a sucker willing to buy something that doesn't benefit the economy at all, but the government did spike the punch bowl. Do you think the banks who made all these terrible decisions would have done the same thing, if they knew they wouldn't be bailed out?
Actually there is decent evidence that a majority of CRA loans increased responsible lending.

http://www.frbsf.org/news/speeches/2008/0331.html

There has been a tendency to conflate the current problems in the subprime market with CRA-motivated lending, or with lending to low-income families in general.  I believe it is very important to make a distinction between the two. Most of the loans made by depository institutions examined under the CRA have not been higher-priced loans,16 and studies have shown that the CRA has increased the volume of responsible lending to low- and moderate-income households.

An analysis by attorneys Traiger and Hinckley concluded that CRA banks were less likely to sell risky mortgages onto the secondary market, and likely mitigated the effect of subprime crisis.

Perhaps the most notable change, however, is that in the last 25 years, consumer credit markets have shifted dramatically, moving from a credit rationing approach to a risk-based pricing system. In other words, today, far fewer applicants are denied credit—rather, they are offered credit at higher prices intended to reflect the greater risk posed by these loans.1 This shift, coupled with other innovations in the financial markets, has significantly increased access to credit, with both positive and negative effects.
However, speculation did artificially drive up housing costs to the tune of doubling the home prices, and many speculators and others that purchased high-priced home loans did default and have defaulted.  People getting CRA loans weren't taking $500k loans and defaulting.  Everyday people and investors alike were trying to cash in on the housing bubble.  That (speculation) had a far greater impact on the devaluation of homes, real-estate portfolios tanking, reduced liquidity of banks.  So no, I don't buy for one second that this particular regulation (the CRA) was a major cause to the financial crisis.  However, you can find evidence that a lack of regulation of borrowers (by the underwriters themselves) and of brokers (by the mortgage industry and maybe government) did have a fairly large impact in making the snowball bigger.

I'm not necessarily for or against regulation.  There are glaring examples where regulation is needed, brought forth recently by such examples as Enron, S&L scandal, and recently the mortgage debacle we are discussing.  On the flip side there are prime examples of regulation needlessly inflating cost of goods and services.  I think it's entirely ignorant to say "regulation is bad" at least from a practical, realistic standpoint, because people are fallible, and even moreso, when vast sums of money are at risk the incentive of corruption increases.

As far as the banks knowing they were going to be bailed out - money runs this country.  Whoever has the most money can buy the most power.  Banks have money - banks bought power and protection.  Our country is ruled by a private bank.  Whether or not I personally think the banks would have made the same shady decisions to bundle toxic assets is irrelevant.  The banks were never going to be the losers.  They knew this and still know this.  The consumer (everyday people like you and me and the rest of the forum) will always bear the brunt of the loss because concentrated capital controls the government, not the people.  We are playing craps with loaded dice.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85

Phrozenbot wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Also mildly amusing that a Euro is sucking capitalism's dick that hard. He wasn't just giving it a little peck, he was going down on it the whole time.
Was this supposed to be funny?
No, it wasn't. If there was a capitalism flag he would have wrapped itself in it for the duration. It was annoying.

Also, I don't think anyone actually watched the video? Just going improv on the word globalization (spell it like an American damnit)?
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6872|SE London

JohnG@lt wrote:

Braddock wrote:

Globalisation, when it's allowed to run wild without moderation, is quite simply a race to the bottom. The general premise is that those at the top (generally speaking, the ideas and finance people) make more and more while those at the bottom (generally speaking, the ones that do the hard work) make less and less, but the fact is when the gap between rich and poor gets too wide revolt and social upheaval results. A moderate approach with both a healthy amount of competition, and reasonable working conditions & minimum wage regulations makes more sense in the long run.
I know Marx told you this is true but it has never happened in history. The lower class has never successfully revolted.
Mozambique?

Machel was working-class. His father was a farmer, he didn't finish school - yet he led a successful revolutionary war in Mozambique.

There are lots of examples from across Africa.

How about the Haitian Revolution? Led by Boukman. He was a slave. That's hardly middle-class.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2010-01-12 12:09:11)

Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6907|do not disturb

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Actually there is decent evidence that a majority of CRA loans increased responsible lending.

There has been a tendency to conflate the current problems in the subprime market with CRA-motivated lending, or with lending to low-income families in general.  I believe it is very important to make a distinction between the two. Most of the loans made by depository institutions examined under the CRA have not been higher-priced loans,16 and studies have shown that the CRA has increased the volume of responsible lending to low- and moderate-income households.
Well if I recall, the CRA called for 1 trillion in subprime loans to be made, if I'm not mistaken. However, even if this is true, affordable housing won't truly happen until home prices fall further. Access to credit is a different story. Banks aren't lending, and credit worthy borrowers aren't borrowing. I never got the whole idea of forcing banks to lend unless you want them to incur more losses, creating even more risk of a run on banks.

Quote wrote:

As Chairman Bernanke recently noted, “far too much of the lending in recent years was neither responsible nor prudent.” 9 Between 2001 and 2006—right when we saw the largest growth in subprime lending—the quality of loans deteriorated fairly steadily as underwriting criteria eased.10 Many subprime loans included additional risk factors, such as a lack of full documentation, high combined loan-to-values, and high debt-to-income ratios.
From everything I've read about Fannie and Freddie, mortgages approved by them had terribly high DTI ratios. So even if CRA played little to no part in the housing bubble, the GSEs clearly failed in creating affordable housing, as well-intended they may have been.

Then the rating agencies, whom some argue have a monopoly since it's the gov that decides who's on the rating agency list, gave AAA ratings on loans destined to default. Maybe it's time to break up the rating agency cartel?


KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

As far as the banks knowing they were going to be bailed out - money runs this country.  Whoever has the most money can buy the most power.  Banks have money - banks bought power and protection.  Our country is ruled by a private bank.  Whether or not I personally think the banks would have made the same shady decisions to bundle toxic assets is irrelevant.  The banks were never going to be the losers.  They knew this and still know this.  The consumer (everyday people like you and me and the rest of the forum) will always bear the brunt of the loss because concentrated capital controls the government, not the people.  We are playing craps with loaded dice.
At least we can agree on this. I wish some of these bankers could face reality like the rest of us when we lose, but whoever has the gold rules and losing has no place in their world. I don't care what excuse they try to use to justify the bailouts. It's snake-oil for all we know. Even if a depression is coming our way, there's no avoiding it.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Phrozenbot wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Also mildly amusing that a Euro is sucking capitalism's dick that hard. He wasn't just giving it a little peck, he was going down on it the whole time.
Was this supposed to be funny?
No, it wasn't. If there was a capitalism flag he would have wrapped itself in it for the duration. It was annoying.

Also, I don't think anyone actually watched the video? Just going improv on the word globalization (spell it like an American damnit)?
He's a libertarian, what would you expect? But did you have to be vulgar about it? There's this and your f bombs every other post.

Last edited by Phrozenbot (2010-01-12 13:48:10)

Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85
Why do you keep associating libertarian with capitalism? They aren't the same thing.

There is a difference between believing in something and getting on a soapbox every other sentence. It's bad rhetoric.

Cry me a river, build me a bridge and get over it as far as the swearing.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Why do you keep associating libertarian with capitalism? They aren't the same thing.

There is a difference between believing in something and getting on a soapbox every other sentence. It's bad rhetoric.

Cry me a river, build me a bridge and get over it as far as the swearing.
They are very much the same thing. Capitalism is the only economic system that has ever been associated with libertarianism. Why? Because capitalism is freedom.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85

JohnG@lt wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Why do you keep associating libertarian with capitalism? They aren't the same thing.

There is a difference between believing in something and getting on a soapbox every other sentence. It's bad rhetoric.

Cry me a river, build me a bridge and get over it as far as the swearing.
They are very much the same thing. Capitalism is the only economic system that has ever been associated with libertarianism. Why? Because capitalism is freedom.
lol
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Why do you keep associating libertarian with capitalism? They aren't the same thing.

There is a difference between believing in something and getting on a soapbox every other sentence. It's bad rhetoric.

Cry me a river, build me a bridge and get over it as far as the swearing.
They are very much the same thing. Capitalism is the only economic system that has ever been associated with libertarianism. Why? Because capitalism is freedom.
lol
"All schools of libertarianism support strong personal rights to life and liberty, though there is disagreement on the subject of private property. The most commonly known formulation of libertarianism supports free market capitalism[8][9][10] by advocating a right to private property, including property in the means of production,[11] minimal government regulation of that property, minimal taxation, and rejection of the welfare state, all within the context of the rule of law"

Some others may call themselves libertarians, but the vast majority of current and former libertarians recognize that free market capitalism is the only economic system that grants the individual freedom.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-01-12 13:54:08)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6907|do not disturb

JohnG@lt wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Why do you keep associating libertarian with capitalism? They aren't the same thing.

There is a difference between believing in something and getting on a soapbox every other sentence. It's bad rhetoric.

Cry me a river, build me a bridge and get over it as far as the swearing.
They are very much the same thing. Capitalism is the only economic system that has ever been associated with libertarianism. Why? Because capitalism is freedom.
This^

and, Johan Norberg is a senior fellow at the Cato institute... a Libertarian Think tank.

FM I was pointing out you're not funny, and your use of vulgarity doesn't make anyone take you more seriously. If you wanna tell me to go cry a river, why don't you go pound sand and stop being so ate up about everything?

Last edited by Phrozenbot (2010-01-12 13:58:00)

Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85

JohnG@lt wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

They are very much the same thing. Capitalism is the only economic system that has ever been associated with libertarianism. Why? Because capitalism is freedom.
lol
"All schools of libertarianism support strong personal rights to life and liberty, though there is disagreement on the subject of private property. The most commonly known formulation of libertarianism supports free market capitalism[8][9][10] by advocating a right to private property, including property in the means of production,[11] minimal government regulation of that property, minimal taxation, and rejection of the welfare state, all within the context of the rule of law"

Some others may call themselves libertarians, but the vast majority of current and former libertarians recognize that free market capitalism is the only economic system that grants the individual freedom.
It doesn't matter, they aren't the same. Libertarians are part of a political system that believes in personal freedom, how that is achieved fragments the party. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political system. The words are not synonymous and cannot be used as such.

Phrozenbot wrote:

and, Johan Norberg is a senior fellow at the Cato institute... a Libertarian Think tank.

FM I was pointing out you're not funny, and your use of vulgarity doesn't make anyone take you more seriously. If you wanna tell me to go cry a river, why don't you go pound sand and stop being so ate up about everything?
Well that's a good reason. Still doesn't mean he needs to be spreading capitalism and democracy by necessity, but that will work.

Well that's good, because I certainly wasn't trying to be funny and I'm certainly not trying to get anyone to take me any more seriously.

'Cause you know, I wanted to talk about the video, but seeing as I'm the only one who watched it I guess that's not going to happen.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:


lol
"All schools of libertarianism support strong personal rights to life and liberty, though there is disagreement on the subject of private property. The most commonly known formulation of libertarianism supports free market capitalism[8][9][10] by advocating a right to private property, including property in the means of production,[11] minimal government regulation of that property, minimal taxation, and rejection of the welfare state, all within the context of the rule of law"

Some others may call themselves libertarians, but the vast majority of current and former libertarians recognize that free market capitalism is the only economic system that grants the individual freedom.
It doesn't matter, they aren't the same. Libertarians are part of a political system that believes in personal freedom, how that is achieved fragments the party. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political system. The words are not synonymous and cannot be used as such.
Political and economic systems are inextricably intertwined. How you fail to see this boggles my mind.

Socialism is an economic system which also has the secondary effect of limiting personal freedom. It is also a political system because socialism requires strong government guidance. On the other end of the spectrum capitalism requires personal freedom and limited government interference to function properly.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
eleven bravo
Member
+1,399|5550|foggy bottom
Im leaning towards FM here.  libertarianism has too many different conflicting persepectives to be considered a principaled political belief. 

Libertarians against abortion, for capital punishment and deregulation

Libertarians for civil rights, environmental protection blah blah blah
Tu Stultus Es
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

eleven bravo wrote:

Im leaning towards FM here.  libertarianism has too many different conflicting persepectives to be considered a principaled political belief. 

Libertarians against abortion, for capital punishment and deregulation

Libertarians for civil rights, environmental protection blah blah blah
Yes, it's a rather large umbrella that attracts all sorts of differing ideologies. Most people, when they refer to libertarianism are really referring to Classical Liberalism (which is where I fall). We're the 'majority' within the libertarian umbrella.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-01-12 14:06:15)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85

JohnG@lt wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:


"All schools of libertarianism support strong personal rights to life and liberty, though there is disagreement on the subject of private property. The most commonly known formulation of libertarianism supports free market capitalism[8][9][10] by advocating a right to private property, including property in the means of production,[11] minimal government regulation of that property, minimal taxation, and rejection of the welfare state, all within the context of the rule of law"

Some others may call themselves libertarians, but the vast majority of current and former libertarians recognize that free market capitalism is the only economic system that grants the individual freedom.
It doesn't matter, they aren't the same. Libertarians are part of a political system that believes in personal freedom, how that is achieved fragments the party. Capitalism is an economic system, not a political system. The words are not synonymous and cannot be used as such.
Political and economic systems are inextricably intertwined. How you fail to see this boggles my mind.

Socialism is an economic system which also has the secondary effect of limiting personal freedom. It is also a political system because socialism requires strong government guidance. On the other end of the spectrum capitalism requires personal freedom and limited government interference to function properly.
Because they aren't? There are political systems, and there are economic systems. They can be mixed and matched like mad. Some are a match made in heaven, some are funky. You can still legitimately stick any two of them together. Capitalist Monarchy. Socialist Republic. etc.
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6907|do not disturb

eleven bravo wrote:

Libertarians against abortion, for capital punishment and deregulation
You certainly could believe in free markets, and believe in other things that would go against the libertarian grain, but that wasn't the point. FM assumed I thought capitalism and being a libertarian were synonymous. They have their own definitions, but they go hand-in-hand if you think about it.

I don't really want to argue about abortion, but the only thing I'd like to say is that it's not your liberty to take the life of someone else. At least, that's what most libertarians would say.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6998|67.222.138.85
The point was I didn't know the narrator legitimately names himself a libertarian. You do not have to be a capitalist libertarian, but in this instance he obviously is.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

Phrozenbot wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

Libertarians against abortion, for capital punishment and deregulation
You certainly could believe in free markets, and believe in other things that would go against the libertarian grain, but that wasn't the point. FM assumed I thought capitalism and being a libertarian were synonymous. They have their own definitions, but they go hand-in-hand if you think about it.

I don't really want to argue about abortion, but the only thing I'd like to say is that it's not your liberty to take the life of someone else. At least, that's what most libertarians would say.
Abortion is a topic I've already struggled with. On the one hand I can see the logic in not destroying the life of the parents if it's a child that comes during teenage years. On the other, the only points of law I can strongly agree with are in laws protecting one individual from the negative actions of another. The taking of a childs life could certainly be argued strongly to be a negative impact on the childs life . But what of birth control then? It's inhibiting life from forming. I guess I'd rather see the child born and given away for adoption rather than aborted but I don't think I'd go so far as wanting Roe vs Wade overturned. Nor would I go so far as to call it murder... It's a very very tough issue.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,983|6923|949

Phrozenbot wrote:

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

Actually there is decent evidence that a majority of CRA loans increased responsible lending.

There has been a tendency to conflate the current problems in the subprime market with CRA-motivated lending, or with lending to low-income families in general.  I believe it is very important to make a distinction between the two. Most of the loans made by depository institutions examined under the CRA have not been higher-priced loans,16 and studies have shown that the CRA has increased the volume of responsible lending to low- and moderate-income households.
Well if I recall, the CRA called for 1 trillion in subprime loans to be made, if I'm not mistaken. However, even if this is true, affordable housing won't truly happen until home prices fall further. Access to credit is a different story. Banks aren't lending, and credit worthy borrowers aren't borrowing. I never got the whole idea of forcing banks to lend unless you want them to incur more losses, creating even more risk of a run on banks.

Quote wrote:

As Chairman Bernanke recently noted, “far too much of the lending in recent years was neither responsible nor prudent.” 9 Between 2001 and 2006—right when we saw the largest growth in subprime lending—the quality of loans deteriorated fairly steadily as underwriting criteria eased.10 Many subprime loans included additional risk factors, such as a lack of full documentation, high combined loan-to-values, and high debt-to-income ratios.
From everything I've read about Fannie and Freddie, mortgages approved by them had terribly high DTI ratios. So even if CRA played little to no part in the housing bubble, the GSEs clearly failed in creating affordable housing, as well-intended they may have been.

Then the rating agencies, whom some argue have a monopoly since it's the gov that decides who's on the rating agency list, gave AAA ratings on loans destined to default. Maybe it's time to break up the rating agency cartel?


KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

As far as the banks knowing they were going to be bailed out - money runs this country.  Whoever has the most money can buy the most power.  Banks have money - banks bought power and protection.  Our country is ruled by a private bank.  Whether or not I personally think the banks would have made the same shady decisions to bundle toxic assets is irrelevant.  The banks were never going to be the losers.  They knew this and still know this.  The consumer (everyday people like you and me and the rest of the forum) will always bear the brunt of the loss because concentrated capital controls the government, not the people.  We are playing craps with loaded dice.
At least we can agree on this. I wish some of these bankers could face reality like the rest of us when we lose, but whoever has the gold rules and losing has no place in their world. I don't care what excuse they try to use to justify the bailouts. It's snake-oil for all we know. Even if a depression is coming our way, there's no avoiding it.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Phrozenbot wrote:

Was this supposed to be funny?
No, it wasn't. If there was a capitalism flag he would have wrapped itself in it for the duration. It was annoying.

Also, I don't think anyone actually watched the video? Just going improv on the word globalization (spell it like an American damnit)?
He's a libertarian, what would you expect? But did you have to be vulgar about it? There's this and your f bombs every other post.
I really don't disagree with any of this except Mises' penchant to conflate 'low-income' with 'sub-prime'.  The fact remains that the CRA wasn't the main cause of the housing bubble and bust, it was speculation - both on real estate and on buying/selling of toxic assets as commodities.  GSE's failed to create affordable housing, but then trying to implement 'affordable housing' from a credit/loan standpoint is ridiculous to begin with.  The CRA was at best a well-intentioned vote getting ploy, at worst a bad piece of legislation.  Not a fan of using it as a scapegoat though, or of prattling on about 'liberal this' or that.  Mises is a retard for doing that.  I think throwing around terms like 'liberal' or 'neocon' as some sort of vilifying words is an injustice to intelligent conversation.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

The point was I didn't know the narrator legitimately names himself a libertarian. You do not have to be a capitalist libertarian, but in this instance he obviously is.
They're one of the only mixtures between economic and political philosophy that mesh well and are logical. There's only two logical groupings. Authoritarianism and Socialism and Libertarianism (Classical Liberalism) and Capitalism. Everything else is rather forced and inefficient.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2010-01-12 14:25:40)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Phrozenbot
Member
+632|6907|do not disturb

JohnG@lt wrote:

Abortion is a topic I've already struggled with. On the one hand I can see the logic in not destroying the life of the parents if it's a child that comes during teenage years. On the other, the only points of law I can strongly agree with are in laws protecting one individual from the negative actions of another. The taking of a childs life could certainly be argued strongly to be a negative impact on the childs life . But what of birth control then? It's inhibiting life from forming. I guess I'd rather see the child born and given away for adoption rather than aborted but I don't think I'd go so far as wanting Roe vs Wade overturned. Nor would I go so far as to call it murder... It's a very very tough issue.
It really is a subjective issue. We're making law on both seen, and unseen. I admit the issue bothers me, because what feels right and sensible could easily turn out to be a horrible sin.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5649|London, England

Phrozenbot wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Abortion is a topic I've already struggled with. On the one hand I can see the logic in not destroying the life of the parents if it's a child that comes during teenage years. On the other, the only points of law I can strongly agree with are in laws protecting one individual from the negative actions of another. The taking of a childs life could certainly be argued strongly to be a negative impact on the childs life . But what of birth control then? It's inhibiting life from forming. I guess I'd rather see the child born and given away for adoption rather than aborted but I don't think I'd go so far as wanting Roe vs Wade overturned. Nor would I go so far as to call it murder... It's a very very tough issue.
It really is a subjective issue. We're making law on both seen, and unseen. I admit the issue bothers me, because what feels right and sensible could easily turn out to be a horrible sin.
I don't even have the religious moral dilemma and it's difficult
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,057|7063|PNW

King_County_Downy wrote:

WTO Riots. Seattle. Been there. Done that.

It was
Except for people getting randomly injured.

Board footer

Privacy Policy - © 2025 Jeff Minard