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XstrangerdangerX
conversation is combat
+36|5705|Tasmania
Thought it might be interesting to read your opinions on this.

I'ma start it off in my usual hostile fashion by putting up a post I made elsewhere.

me wrote:

The abortion debate has passed into farce.

6000 children die each fucking day from lack of access to fresh water and you sit here discussing an individuals decision to terminate a single fucking foetus? This is a sickening effect of moral isolationism.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is it that we are blinded by our own media and it's lack of coverage or do we really not comprehend the fact that children die everyday from something so utterly banal?

Why does this debate cause such strong emotion in people? Protection of infants is one of the three essential underpinnings of any society (the other two being truth-telling and the banning of murder), so this is partly why, as a society we feel such outrage when a child is harmed, because this is a fundamental violation of what should be. However it does not follow that we can form such an emotional attachment to a foetus in a woman's womb. This child was unplanned, obviously unwanted, how is it an addition to our society? How does this affect our capacity to exist? Were someone into post term-abortion (something which I advocate regularly in the pit) then there is a problem, this is murder of a sentient creature.

How on earth is it up to you to dictate to a women what she will do with her child? How can we legislate against individual choice? This is what you are doing. You have NO right to tell a women 'you must bear the child, for the rest of your life'.

What if she's an incapable mother? A drug addict, a prostitute. What if she's a really nice person but just doesn't want a child? None of these mothers are going to give their child the attention, nourishment and upbringing that will be essential for it to operate in society. Would you farm out the children to be adopted? Where will you find these people in the immense volumes required? If you do find them, why aren't they having their own? Impotency incidence does not match the occurence of abortion.

So, because she had unprotected sex she should bear the responsibilities of her actions? Stop trotting out the same mindless aphorisms we were all subjected to in sex ed. For one broken condom or one night of sexual congress you would commit this person to 18 years of parental responsibility? Let's forget the fact that this person is not responsible enough to use a condom; we are not this harsh with murderers. The scale of punishment that you ascribe to this is akin to hanging someone for not paying a parking ticket. Your logic is flawed.

Will you tell me now it's immoral and it's murder? Bugger off to the third world and see what blood our indifference there has shed. The double standard here practically screams 'wake the fuck up'.

And where is the male in all this? Do those of you against abortion see no responsibility for the male? When debating abortion I often get the sense that these so called 'pro-lifers' have absolved the male of fault, or at least assigned a diminished responsibility. So often it is vilification of the mother that sits at the head of your outrage.



---as to the case stated at the start of the thread, there is no logical problem here, merely an affect of law. To 'throw the book at him' so to speak. It is more an additional punishment for his crime than a comment on the potentiality of the foetus.

(And I've left many open points so as to encourage debate, so don't think to zing me unless you've really thought about it and have an entirely new angle to discuss)
This comes from here: http://www.musicianforums.com/forums/sh … t=abortion

I know we have a number of christian and other religious folk on here, I'm interested in sharing opinions.

Paper, scissors, ROCK!
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|5811|California
Pro-life here, never going to change your mind, you aren't going to change mine. We can not have a rational debate, just by the tone of your post.

Funny how on one side you say a mother won't take care of her child, then call her a "nice person".

And I don't vilify just mothers. There are plenty of lowlife sperm donors calling themselves dads, but don't do a damn thing to raise their child.
Kontrolfreq
Member
+50|5680|Cambridge UK
Surely a sperm donor is just that? Not a dad... If anything they are doing people who are unable to have children a favour.

Pro-choice here.
XstrangerdangerX
conversation is combat
+36|5705|Tasmania
Have a read of the thread I linked then. It was an epic debate between mysekf and a few others, and a very clever fellow called Croninu.

It was written 2 years ago, I still believe the same things but am far more coolheaded about it. So ignore the tone and attack the tenet.
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|5841|Dallas
Me and my girlfriend abort a baby at least 5 or 6 times a year.

I really don't see much of a problem with it.
Darth_Fleder
Mod from the Church of the Painful Truth
+533|5882|Orlando, FL - Age 43
I'm in favor of retroactive abortions.
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|5738|USA
Pro-Choice.

You remember your time in the womb?

Me either....
Fuzzball_the_Shooter
The Photographer.
+81|5781|Central Valley,California
I think it's wrong and quite sick, now Cougar I'm going to respect what you do. Killing someone is wrong and if your relgious it's terrible. Killing someone is horrible like I said, but killing unborn babies and not letting them come into this world is terrible.
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|5812|Salt Lake City

Even though I'm sure some of you have seen my posts in the other religious debates, and not believing in God or the contents of the Bible, I actually fall into the moderate category here.

I think it needs to be kept legal and safe.  However, I would much rather see the problem addressed at the cause, not the effect.  Address the issues that lead to abortion; obviously rape, incest, fatal deformities, etc. are not within control in many cases.  I also fully support the idea that adoption and other options are discussed with the person prior to the abortion being performed.
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|5841|Dallas

Fuzzball_the_Shooter wrote:

I think it's wrong and quite sick, now Cougar I'm going to respect what you do. Killing someone is wrong and if your relgious it's terrible. Killing someone is horrible like I said, but killing unborn babies and not letting them come into this world is terrible.
What?  My father is a preacher and he actually drove us to the abortion clinic the first time we had one done.  How am I a bad person?  Don't get me wrong, I would love to have children but we cannot afford our taxes if we do, so therfor we have to abort.  Someone actually gave us advice about condoms, but I can't keep wood very long with a condom, so abortion is the logical choice.

I don't see what the big deal is.  I mean my girl goes in there and has this done, she feels sick for a few days and then we are back at it and screwing again in no time.  I think we had 7 last year, 6 the year before that and 2 this year.  Around 18 or so since we've been together, and I sleep fine at night.
Fuzzball_the_Shooter
The Photographer.
+81|5781|Central Valley,California

Cougar wrote:

Fuzzball_the_Shooter wrote:

I think it's wrong and quite sick, now Cougar I'm going to respect what you do. Killing someone is wrong and if your relgious it's terrible. Killing someone is horrible like I said, but killing unborn babies and not letting them come into this world is terrible.
What?  My father is a preacher and he actually drove us to the abortion clinic the first time we had one done.  How am I a bad person?  Don't get me wrong, I would love to have children but we cannot afford our taxes if we do, so therfor we have to abort.  Someone actually gave us advice about condoms, but I can't keep wood very long with a condom, so abortion is the logical choice.

I don't see what the big deal is.  I mean my girl goes in there and has this done, she feels sick for a few days and then we are back at it and screwing again in no time.  I think we had 7 last year, 6 the year before that and 2 this year.  Around 18 or so since we've been together, and I sleep fine at night.
Well, you could hold the baby up for adoption.
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|5841|Dallas

Fuzzball_the_Shooter wrote:

Cougar wrote:

Fuzzball_the_Shooter wrote:

I think it's wrong and quite sick, now Cougar I'm going to respect what you do. Killing someone is wrong and if your relgious it's terrible. Killing someone is horrible like I said, but killing unborn babies and not letting them come into this world is terrible.
What?  My father is a preacher and he actually drove us to the abortion clinic the first time we had one done.  How am I a bad person?  Don't get me wrong, I would love to have children but we cannot afford our taxes if we do, so therfor we have to abort.  Someone actually gave us advice about condoms, but I can't keep wood very long with a condom, so abortion is the logical choice.

I don't see what the big deal is.  I mean my girl goes in there and has this done, she feels sick for a few days and then we are back at it and screwing again in no time.  I think we had 7 last year, 6 the year before that and 2 this year.  Around 18 or so since we've been together, and I sleep fine at night.
Well, you could hold the baby up for adoption.
Why would I want to do that when we can abort and save ourselves the trouble of pregnancy and labor and all the other "later in life weirdo drama"?

I prefer abortion.  I find nothing wrong with it at all.
Fuzzball_the_Shooter
The Photographer.
+81|5781|Central Valley,California

Cougar wrote:

Fuzzball_the_Shooter wrote:

Cougar wrote:


What?  My father is a preacher and he actually drove us to the abortion clinic the first time we had one done.  How am I a bad person?  Don't get me wrong, I would love to have children but we cannot afford our taxes if we do, so therfor we have to abort.  Someone actually gave us advice about condoms, but I can't keep wood very long with a condom, so abortion is the logical choice.

I don't see what the big deal is.  I mean my girl goes in there and has this done, she feels sick for a few days and then we are back at it and screwing again in no time.  I think we had 7 last year, 6 the year before that and 2 this year.  Around 18 or so since we've been together, and I sleep fine at night.
Well, you could hold the baby up for adoption.
Why would I want to do that when we can abort and save ourselves the trouble of pregnancy and labor and all the other "later in life weirdo drama"?

I prefer abortion.  I find nothing wrong with it at all.
Well, we all have our point of view.
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|5841|Dallas

Fuzzball_the_Shooter wrote:

Cougar wrote:

Fuzzball_the_Shooter wrote:


Well, you could hold the baby up for adoption.
Why would I want to do that when we can abort and save ourselves the trouble of pregnancy and labor and all the other "later in life weirdo drama"?

I prefer abortion.  I find nothing wrong with it at all.
Well, we all have our point of view.
Actually, I'm just fucking with you.  I nor my girlfriend have ever aborted a baby.

LOL, you tool.
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|5777
This is the debate section. If youre going to 'fuck with people', do it somewhere else.

I'll write up my own opinion later when I have more time.
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|5738|USA

Cougar wrote:

Fuzzball_the_Shooter wrote:

Cougar wrote:


Why would I want to do that when we can abort and save ourselves the trouble of pregnancy and labor and all the other "later in life weirdo drama"?

I prefer abortion.  I find nothing wrong with it at all.
Well, we all have our point of view.
Actually, I'm just fucking with you.  I nor my girlfriend have ever aborted a baby.

LOL, you tool.
Come on Cougar. Fuzzball was attempting a serious debate on a "serious" thread topic. He didn't attack you  when it appeared you had 20 abortions or so with your g/f. He offered advice and debate.

He's hardly a tool.
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|5841|Dallas
lol.  eat me.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|5913
Stop calling it Pro life...................... Its Anti abortion.

Stop calling it Pro choice................. Its Pro abortion.

Don't make me pay for everyone's abortions out of my tax money.

(Pro abortion groups insist on "abortion on demand " for anyone who wants it at the States expense)

Why can't the male partner decide he doesn't want to be a parent? Why can only the female decide?

It seems to me "when life begins " is a medical question.

Religion "should have " no place in The USA's politics. So a theological argument should have no bearing what so ever.

The only reason I back Christian Ideals at all (when I do) is because of all the other "Religions and Groups " who want to jam their beliefs, ways, practices and thinking down our throats.
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|5738|USA

Horseman 77 wrote:

Stop calling it Pro life...................... Its Anti abortion.

Stop calling it Pro choice................. Its Pro abortion.

Don't make me pay for everyone's abortions out of my tax money.

(Pro abortion groups insist on "abortion on demand " for anyone who wants it at the States expense)

Why can't the male partner decide he doesn't want to be a parent? Why can only the female decide?

It seems to me "when life begins " is a medical question.

Religion "should have " no place in The USA's politics. So a theological argument should have no bearing what so ever.

The only reason I back Christian Ideals at all (when I do) is because of all the other "Religions and Groups " who want to jam their beliefs, ways, practices and thinking down our throats.
Tell me how your paying for everyones abortion with your tax dollars? Cause in my state as it is...Insurance doesn't cover it and you have quite a bit of out of pocket expense to be PRO-CHOICE....meaning Women should have a right to choose. It doesn't mean PRO-ABORTION.

Guys have no choice because they aren't squeezing a watermelon out thier pee hole.

I agree religion shouldn't mix with politics.
The Stillhouse Kid
Licensed Televulcanologist
+126|5718|Deep In The South Of Texas

XstrangerdangerX wrote:

So, because she had unprotected sex she should bear the responsibilities of her actions?
Yes. If she made the conscious choice to pull down her panties and let the poor schmuck do his deed, then Hell yes she deserves to at least carry the baby to full term and give birth. If sex education failed to teach her the proper responsibility for her actions, perhaps this will. If you think you're responsible enough to fuck like an adult, then be prepared to deal with the possible consequences of your actions. It's not like they haven't been warned it could happen.

And where is the male in all this? Do those of you against abortion see no responsibility for the male?
Nope. The male is just as responsible as she is. He has the choice to keep his unit in his pants or wear a rubber just like she has the choice to keep her legs together. Why is is to terrible to compel someone to accept the consequences of their poor choices?
Cougar
Banned
+1,962|5841|Dallas

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

Guys have no choice because they aren't squeezing a watermelon out thier pee hole.
lololololololololololol
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|5738|USA

The Stillhouse Kid wrote:

XstrangerdangerX wrote:

So, because she had unprotected sex she should bear the responsibilities of her actions?
Yes. If she made the conscious choice to pull down her panties and let the poor schmuck do his deed, then Hell yes she deserves to at least carry the baby to full term and give birth. If sex education failed to teach her the proper responsibility for her actions, perhaps this will. If you think you're responsible enough to fuck like an adult, then be prepared to deal with the possible consequences of your actions. It's not like they haven't been warned it could happen.

And where is the male in all this? Do those of you against abortion see no responsibility for the male?
Nope. The male is just as responsible as she is. He has the choice to keep his unit in his pants or wear a rubber just like she has the choice to keep her legs together. Why is is to terrible to compel someone to accept the consequences of their poor choices?
The technology is here. The Freedom is here. When those two things exist to eliminate consequences of a certain poor choice, there are no more consequences. Only the choice to live with them or not.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|5913

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

Tell me how your paying for everyones abortion with your tax dollars? Cause in my state as it is...Insurance doesn't cover it

Horseman 77 wrote:

Please read and respond to What I actually said. " Don't make me ". Something I do not want to do.

Pro abortion groups insist on "abortion on demand " for anyone who wants it at the States expense.

That is their agenda, read their literature. How it runs now " in your state for example " is what they " Pro abortion groups " want to change.
PRO-CHOICE....meaning Women should have a right to choose.

Horseman 77 wrote:

Choose an abortion
Guys have no choice because they aren't squeezing a watermelon out thier pee hole.
The ureter isn't involved in the birth process.

Last edited by Horseman 77 (2006-04-20 11:14:05)

The Stillhouse Kid
Licensed Televulcanologist
+126|5718|Deep In The South Of Texas

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

The Stillhouse Kid wrote:

XstrangerdangerX wrote:

So, because she had unprotected sex she should bear the responsibilities of her actions?
Yes. If she made the conscious choice to pull down her panties and let the poor schmuck do his deed, then Hell yes she deserves to at least carry the baby to full term and give birth. If sex education failed to teach her the proper responsibility for her actions, perhaps this will. If you think you're responsible enough to fuck like an adult, then be prepared to deal with the possible consequences of your actions. It's not like they haven't been warned it could happen.

And where is the male in all this? Do those of you against abortion see no responsibility for the male?
Nope. The male is just as responsible as she is. He has the choice to keep his unit in his pants or wear a rubber just like she has the choice to keep her legs together. Why is is to terrible to compel someone to accept the consequences of their poor choices?
The technology is here. The Freedom is here. When those two things exist to eliminate consequences of a certain poor choice, there are no more consequences. Only the choice to live with them or not.
So in other words, since it's possible to have an abortion then that makes it ok to make wrong choices?

Does it make it OK for someone to be a theif because I can afford to go out and replace what they steal from me?
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|5738|USA

The Stillhouse Kid wrote:

Mason4Assassin444 wrote:

The Stillhouse Kid wrote:

XstrangerdangerX wrote:

So, because she had unprotected sex she should bear the responsibilities of her actions?
Yes. If she made the conscious choice to pull down her panties and let the poor schmuck do his deed, then Hell yes she deserves to at least carry the baby to full term and give birth. If sex education failed to teach her the proper responsibility for her actions, perhaps this will. If you think you're responsible enough to fuck like an adult, then be prepared to deal with the possible consequences of your actions. It's not like they haven't been warned it could happen.


Nope. The male is just as responsible as she is. He has the choice to keep his unit in his pants or wear a rubber just like she has the choice to keep her legs together. Why is is to terrible to compel someone to accept the consequences of their poor choices?
The technology is here. The Freedom is here. When those two things exist to eliminate consequences of a certain poor choice, there are no more consequences. Only the choice to live with them or not.
So in other words, since it's possible to have an abortion then that makes it ok to make wrong choices?

Does it make it OK for someone to be a theif because I can afford to go out and replace what they steal from me?
Abortion is a wrong decision? Its legal.....but to answer you YES.....Since its possible (and legal) it is ok to have an abortion. It is your OPINION that it is wrong.

Your second statement has no relevance to the first. But I'll answer that too...

Yes it is ok to steal...but only from you.

My Karma box is right at the bottom there.....

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