Beduin
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FEOS wrote:

Beduin wrote:

FEOS wrote:


No. I've given you the links already. Go back and get them yourself. I already said I'm not going to spoon-feed you.
srs... the wiki link you provided in the beginning?
I've provided more than just wiki links.

Go back. Find the links. Read them.

Simple formula.

Or--as stated before--research the topic yourself.
lol... Post em again, and I promise I will do my best to find what you claim.

Just a reminder:


1. You claim that verse 5 in chapter 9 (9:5) is the last verse.
2. You say it is because of  "abrogation"  9:5 can cancel most of the Quran.

You said also depending on which school in Islam, but did not provide any...

Give me the link, and I promise to read them and find what you are talking about.
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Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
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Abrogated?

The next issue with this verse concerns abrogation. It has been claimed by some that this verse 9:5 has abrogated all the peaceful verses in the Qur’an. However, this claim results from a misunderstanding of some Qur’anic concepts. In the Qur’an there is naskh and there is also takhsees. Naskh is the abrogation of a ruling by a ruling that was revealed after it. Naskh occurs in matters of Islamic law. Takhsees on the other hand refers to specification, where one verse restricts the application of another verse, or specifies the limits not mentioned in the other verse. As Shaykh Abu Ammaar Yasir Qadhi writes:

Specification involves one verse limiting or restricting a general ruling found in another verse, whereas naskh involves abrogating the first verse in toto (i.e., it is not applied in any circumstances or conditions). (Qadhi, An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur’aan;UK Al-Hidaayah Publishing and Distribution, 1999, p. 233)
Shaykh Qadhi also explains that one of the conditions for naskh is that the two conflicting rulings apply to the same situation under the same circumstances, and hence there is no alternative understanding of the application of the verses. As he states:

Therefore, if one of the rulings can apply to a specific case, and the other ruling to a different case, this cannot be considered an example of naskh. (Qadhi, An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur’aan;UK Al-Hidaayah Publishing and Distribution, 1999, p. 237)

Therefore, verse 9:5 can in no way be considered an example of naskh since it is only a ruling applied to a very specific situation and circumstances. There is a lot of confusion surrounding some verses labeled as cases of naskh because the early Muslims used to use the word naskh to refer to takhsees as well. Therefore, some Muslims failed to realize that some of these cases labeled by early Muslims as ‘naskh’ were cases of takhsees. This is why some early Muslim scholars are quoted who have classified this verse as a case of ‘naskh’. One should realize that they used the term naskh to refer to a broader range of meanings, including takhsees. As Dr. Jamal Badawi writes:

Any claim of naskh must be definitive, not based on mere opinion or speculation. It should be noted that earlier Muslims used the term naskh to refer also to takhsees or specifying and limiting the ruling than abrogating it. (SOURCE, emphasis added)

Shaykh Abu Ammaar Yasir Qadhi specifically addresses the confusion about verse 9:5, and after citing the different claims he concludes:

It can be seen from the examples and categories quoted that, in reality, most of these verses cannot be considered to have been abrogated in the least. Some of them merely apply to situations other than those that they were revealed for. Almost all of these ‘mansookh’ (abrogated) verses can still be said to apply when the Muslims are in a situation similar to the situation in which the verses were revealed. Thus, the ‘Verse of the Sword’ in reality does not abrogate a large number of verses; in fact, az-Zarqaanee concludes that it does not abrogate any! (fn. Az-Zarqaanee, v.2, pps.275-282) (Qadhi, An Introduction to the Sciences of the Qur’aan;UK Al-Hidaayah Publishing and Distribution, 1999, p. 254)

Shaykh Sami Al-Majid also states the same thing in his article:

Some people – especially some contemporary non-Muslim critics of Islam – have tried to claim that this verse abrogates the verse “Let there be no compulsion in religion.” They argue that the generality of this statement implies that every unbeliever who refuses to accept Islam must be fought. They support their allegation by pointing out that this verse is one of the last verses to be revealed about fighting. However, this verse in no way abrogates the principle in Islamic Law that there is no compulsion in religion. It may be general in wording, but its meaning is quite specific on account of other verses of the Qur’ân that are connected with it as well as on account of a number of pertinent hadîth. (SOURCE)

Shaykh Jamal Al-Din Zarabozo also deals with this issue in his writings on the verse “There is no compulsion in religion”. He mentions the view that this verse has been abrogated as then states:

Al-Dausiri rejects this statement because of the following: A verse cannot abrogate another verse unless it completely removes the ruling of the earlier verse and there is no way to reconcile the contradictory meanings of the verses. (Zarabozo, There is No Compulsion in Religion, Al-Basheer)

This was the view of the great scholars and mufasireen (Qur’anic commentators) both classical and recent, like Ash-Shanqeeti or Ibn Jarir At-Tabari. Shaykh Muhammad S. Al-Awa also comments on this issue in his discussion on the puunishment for apostasy:

At the same time, one can say that the death penalty for apostasy – especially when it is considered as a hadd (prescribed) punishment – contradicts the Qur’anic principle [law] in Surah II, verse 256, which proclaims “No compulsion in religion.” Ibn Hazm, to avoid this criticism, claimed that this verse had been abrogated and that compulsion is allowed in religion; consequently, according to him, the punishment for apostasy does not contradict the Qur’an (fn. Muhalla, vol. XI, p. 195). However, this claim is invalid, since Qur’anic scholars have established the abrogated verses and this verse is not among them (fn. Suyuti, Itqan, vol. II, p. 22-24). Accordingly, one can say with the Encyclopaedia of Islam that “In the Qur’an the apostate is threatened with punishment in the next world only.” (fn. Heffening, Encyclopaedia of Islam, vol. III, p. 736 under “Murtadd"). (El-Awa, Punishment in Islamic Law; US American Trust Publications, 1993, p. 51, emphasis added)

Therefore, when we discuss the merciful and loving verses of the Qur’an and we receive a claim that they have been abrogated by the specific verses concerning battle, we can dismiss such a claim as mere speculation and invalid. Peace and justice are fundamentals of the religion of Islam and can never be removed from it.
Source: http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.ph … ommentary/
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Dilbert_X
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FEOS wrote:

Bullshit. You've made no effort to read the links provided that made the assertion. It's not my assertion. It's an assertion made by Muslim theologians.
The only link you gave was google.
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
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Dilbert_X wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Bullshit. You've made no effort to read the links provided that made the assertion. It's not my assertion. It's an assertion made by Muslim theologians.
The only link you gave was google.
I gave YOU one example of a google search that could be used to find the information, should you bother yourself to independently research the topic...which you didn't bother yourself to do.

I provided multiple other links sourcing quotations used to back up what I was saying in previous posts.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
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FEOS
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Beduin wrote:

wall of text that proves the debate within the Muslim community on the abrogation of portions of the Qu'ran
...with no analysis/comment of his own.
So now that you've found one instance of one part of the debate, it's clear you've learned how to research the topic.

Kudos.

Now look further.

That is not the totality of the issue. Nor is 9:5. As I said, 9:5 is merely one example (albeit a good one) of the confusion and debate associated with abrogation.

Your find has done nothing but solidify exactly what I was saying from the beginning.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6037|شمال

FEOS wrote:

Beduin wrote:

wall of text that proves the debate within the Muslim community on the abrogation of portions of the Qu'ran
...with no analysis/comment of his own.
So now that you've found one instance of one part of the debate, it's clear you've learned how to research the topic.

Kudos.

Now look further.

That is not the totality of the issue. Nor is 9:5. As I said, 9:5 is merely one example (albeit a good one) of the confusion and debate associated with abrogation.

Your find has done nothing but solidify exactly what I was saying from the beginning.
Well... If you can provide anything else, be my guest!

The wall of text says you are WRONG!

1. 9:5 is not the last verse.
2. It does not cancel any other verses.
3. Nothing about ANY school in islam that believe what your claim.


What do you want more?

Last edited by Beduin (2009-12-04 15:42:07)

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This thread is way past it's prime ... let it die in peace ...
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