Already said, this has nothing to do with architecture, it is a move against Islam. and yes intolerance of an intolerant culture makes sense.DonFck wrote:
The intolerance is coming from the Swiss, towards the building of minarets. So what you're saying is that you can live with banning the intolerance of the Swiss? IOW, you'd like to see the minarets built, because not allowing it would be intolerant towards Islam?lowing wrote:
It is a paradox, however I have come to terms with it.Kmarion wrote:
Which is precisely what I was getting at. Tis why I said I was torn.
Banning intolerance I can live with.
You're flip flopping, you flip flopping flip flopper.
To prove your argument correct? So far, you have done very little to support your claim that Islam (as a whole, since you failed to define any further but decided to use the term as broadly as possible) is a threat.lowing wrote:
So tell me, why do I need to waste time with that bullshit?lowing wrote:
Fantastic.lowing wrote:
Not wasting my time pointing out the obvious, just to listen to your denials dismissals and excuses.
I need around tree fiddy.
He can't Donnie ... he base his narrow minded crap on the actions of a very few ... if something or someone is intolerant it is lowing ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Freedom is only granted to the worthy, eh?lowing wrote:
It is a paradox, however I have come to terms with it.Kmarion wrote:
Which is precisely what I was getting at. Tis why I said I was torn.DonFck wrote:
Lol.
Banning new minarets goes against the Swiss muslims freedoms.
Banning intolerance I can live with.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Lowing you are a dumb motherfucker- have you even been to europe?
islam is not "spreading" and it is not "feared". europeans do not take the stance of intolerance and not wanting it. shut up shut up shut up.
the west isnt welcomed in the ME? is that a joke? where have you been for the last decade? the only reason the west isn't welcomed in the ME is when we're capitalistically raping it for our own greedy profits-- culturally a lot of western religion and culture has been accepted into the ME. beduin's example of churches and christian places of worship is a good example; a european institution being integrated without complaints or government-bans into middle-eastern culture.
talking to you about islam is like talking to hitler about the jews so i won't waste my time...
islam is not "spreading" and it is not "feared". europeans do not take the stance of intolerance and not wanting it. shut up shut up shut up.
the west isnt welcomed in the ME? is that a joke? where have you been for the last decade? the only reason the west isn't welcomed in the ME is when we're capitalistically raping it for our own greedy profits-- culturally a lot of western religion and culture has been accepted into the ME. beduin's example of churches and christian places of worship is a good example; a european institution being integrated without complaints or government-bans into middle-eastern culture.
talking to you about islam is like talking to hitler about the jews so i won't waste my time...
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Has Lowing forgotten the huge US influence in UAE, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait? Walmarts, applebees and arby's motherfucker.Uzique wrote:
Lowing you are a dumb motherfucker- have you even been to europe?
islam is not "spreading" and it is not "feared". europeans do not take the stance of intolerance and not wanting it. shut up shut up shut up.
the west isnt welcomed in the ME? is that a joke? where have you been for the last decade? the only reason the west isn't welcomed in the ME is when we're capitalistically raping it for our own greedy profits-- culturally a lot of western religion and culture has been accepted into the ME. beduin's example of churches and christian places of worship is a good example; a european institution being integrated without complaints or government-bans into middle-eastern culture.
talking to you about islam is like talking to hitler about the jews so i won't waste my time...
The point that hasn't been clearly made yet, as far as I can tell, is one of having swallowed a poison pill.
The Swiss have a culture that has been fairly consistent for centuries.
Slow cultural drifts over the eras, but from generation to generation, consistent and slowly evolving.
Same with most European countries.
The French, English, Germans, Spanish.
All have a mixture of cultures and ethnicity that they've comfortably integrated (to varying degrees of comfort...).
Same with the United States.
We've had waves of immigrants come to our country, and successfully integrate into our culture.
Irish, Germans, English, Italians, Polish, Norwegian, Chinese, Japanese, etc..
All have left their cultural 'stamp' on our country, and they have all managed to integrate into the country and become part of it.
It may have taken a few generations to integrate, and there was definitely racial bias against the 'new guys', but they all eventually became part of the country. They kept their traditions, their history, their culture, their religions - but they also learned the laws, culture, and customs, and language of their new adopted home.
(An oddity that Europeans don't quite understand about Americans - how we consider ourselves 100% American, but we can trace our ancestry back to, say, '1/4 Irish, 1/4 German, 1/4 Russian, 1/4 Spanish')
Part of the fear of middle eastern immigration is their perceived lack of integration.
There's a perception of middle eastern inflexibility - in religious views, in Sharia law, in regards to women's rights.
That they will not integrate, as past immigrants have, due to those strongly held religious and cultural beliefs.
That they will always be a separate, foreign entity living within our borders.
Part of the problem is, honestly, Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.
Fairly or not, the middle easterner's image has been tainted by it.
It really doesn't help the perception of a religion or a culture, when people claiming to speak for all Muslims start ramming civilian airliners into buildings on CNN, or sending suicide bombers into civilian marketplaces, or beheading journalists.
And, if that were the sum total of it, it could be adequately explained as the 'actions of a few radicals, not representative of the whole'.
But, the lack of any large outcry of indignant rage over the actions of those few terrorists is, in itself, a loud statement.
Until the middle east starts loudly and actively denouncing the use of suicide bombers, and terrorist attacks - it will continue to discredit them.
It does not play well in middle America, to see people cheering in the streets of the middle east upon hearing of the 9/11 attacks.
Nor hearing of middle eastern heads of state paying bounties to the families of suicide bombers, with no moral outrage from the 'moderates' in the middle east. It give the impression that the moderates are not horrified, but rather quietly and discreetly cheering them on.
Understandable that the middle east in general has a few major issues with western interference in the last 100 years.
All of the borders in the middle east are a fiction drawn by the UN after WW-2, etc, etc.
But allowing the lunatic fringe of radical Islam to speak as if they represent the whole, doesn't help.
It would greatly help if the quiet majority of the middle east would loudly disavow that lunatic fringe.
In the same way that the ever politically correct, ever accomodating liberals in the West go to such lengths to profess their tolerance and understanding of the middle east - a little bit of tolerance, respect, understanding, and forbearance in both directions would go a long way.
The Western concepts of Democracy, Equality, and Freedom depend on a reciprocal agreement. If all the understanding, fairness, and tolerance is in one direction, it doesn't work. It runs counter to the Western idealization of Justice or Fairness.
It's a fear of 'We can be as hospitable as possible, but their culture will not reciprocate'. 'Separate but unequal', to borrow a term from another area.
It is not so much an issue of xenophobia or racism (though those terms loosely fit). Between the Orient and the West, there is a diversity of religion, culture, and politics. China and Japan, in particular, are a touch xenophobic/racist towards white westerners - a residual tone of 'you can visit, we can do business, but don't look at my daughter, and don't move in next door'. But yet, we manage to do business, visit each others countries, and live without nearly the same degree of distrust and fear that colors the view of the middle easterners.
To boil it down into simplest terms;
Less press for the radical fundamentalists, the islamic terrorists.
More press from the moderate "live and let live" middle easterners, disavowing the radicals, the terrorists, the suicide bombers.
It would go a long ways towards treating middle eastern immigrants to the West with the same fairness as other groups of immigrants.
And, kick out the radical Imams preaching "death to the infidel". There is no reasonable place for them to immigrate to a country they so obviously hate. Deport them, and let another more reasonable "live and let live" immigrant take their place.
In every other culture, the vast majority of people just want to be left alone to live in peace, raise a family, and have enough food/water/shelter to enjoy a decent life. For every 'scary eeevil mooslim', you'd think you could find 99 potential middle eastern immigrants of the reasonable, peaceful variety...
The Swiss have a culture that has been fairly consistent for centuries.
Slow cultural drifts over the eras, but from generation to generation, consistent and slowly evolving.
Same with most European countries.
The French, English, Germans, Spanish.
All have a mixture of cultures and ethnicity that they've comfortably integrated (to varying degrees of comfort...).
Same with the United States.
We've had waves of immigrants come to our country, and successfully integrate into our culture.
Irish, Germans, English, Italians, Polish, Norwegian, Chinese, Japanese, etc..
All have left their cultural 'stamp' on our country, and they have all managed to integrate into the country and become part of it.
It may have taken a few generations to integrate, and there was definitely racial bias against the 'new guys', but they all eventually became part of the country. They kept their traditions, their history, their culture, their religions - but they also learned the laws, culture, and customs, and language of their new adopted home.
(An oddity that Europeans don't quite understand about Americans - how we consider ourselves 100% American, but we can trace our ancestry back to, say, '1/4 Irish, 1/4 German, 1/4 Russian, 1/4 Spanish')
Part of the fear of middle eastern immigration is their perceived lack of integration.
There's a perception of middle eastern inflexibility - in religious views, in Sharia law, in regards to women's rights.
That they will not integrate, as past immigrants have, due to those strongly held religious and cultural beliefs.
That they will always be a separate, foreign entity living within our borders.
Part of the problem is, honestly, Islamic fundamentalist terrorism.
Fairly or not, the middle easterner's image has been tainted by it.
It really doesn't help the perception of a religion or a culture, when people claiming to speak for all Muslims start ramming civilian airliners into buildings on CNN, or sending suicide bombers into civilian marketplaces, or beheading journalists.
And, if that were the sum total of it, it could be adequately explained as the 'actions of a few radicals, not representative of the whole'.
But, the lack of any large outcry of indignant rage over the actions of those few terrorists is, in itself, a loud statement.
Until the middle east starts loudly and actively denouncing the use of suicide bombers, and terrorist attacks - it will continue to discredit them.
It does not play well in middle America, to see people cheering in the streets of the middle east upon hearing of the 9/11 attacks.
Nor hearing of middle eastern heads of state paying bounties to the families of suicide bombers, with no moral outrage from the 'moderates' in the middle east. It give the impression that the moderates are not horrified, but rather quietly and discreetly cheering them on.
Understandable that the middle east in general has a few major issues with western interference in the last 100 years.
All of the borders in the middle east are a fiction drawn by the UN after WW-2, etc, etc.
But allowing the lunatic fringe of radical Islam to speak as if they represent the whole, doesn't help.
It would greatly help if the quiet majority of the middle east would loudly disavow that lunatic fringe.
In the same way that the ever politically correct, ever accomodating liberals in the West go to such lengths to profess their tolerance and understanding of the middle east - a little bit of tolerance, respect, understanding, and forbearance in both directions would go a long way.
The Western concepts of Democracy, Equality, and Freedom depend on a reciprocal agreement. If all the understanding, fairness, and tolerance is in one direction, it doesn't work. It runs counter to the Western idealization of Justice or Fairness.
It's a fear of 'We can be as hospitable as possible, but their culture will not reciprocate'. 'Separate but unequal', to borrow a term from another area.
It is not so much an issue of xenophobia or racism (though those terms loosely fit). Between the Orient and the West, there is a diversity of religion, culture, and politics. China and Japan, in particular, are a touch xenophobic/racist towards white westerners - a residual tone of 'you can visit, we can do business, but don't look at my daughter, and don't move in next door'. But yet, we manage to do business, visit each others countries, and live without nearly the same degree of distrust and fear that colors the view of the middle easterners.
To boil it down into simplest terms;
Less press for the radical fundamentalists, the islamic terrorists.
More press from the moderate "live and let live" middle easterners, disavowing the radicals, the terrorists, the suicide bombers.
It would go a long ways towards treating middle eastern immigrants to the West with the same fairness as other groups of immigrants.
And, kick out the radical Imams preaching "death to the infidel". There is no reasonable place for them to immigrate to a country they so obviously hate. Deport them, and let another more reasonable "live and let live" immigrant take their place.
In every other culture, the vast majority of people just want to be left alone to live in peace, raise a family, and have enough food/water/shelter to enjoy a decent life. For every 'scary eeevil mooslim', you'd think you could find 99 potential middle eastern immigrants of the reasonable, peaceful variety...
Last edited by rdx-fx (2009-12-02 05:36:35)
There are about 100,000 Christians in Iraq too. They were there even before the war. Suppressed by Saddam, yes, but now they can worship openly without fear of firing squads.Uzique wrote:
Lowing you are a dumb motherfucker- have you even been to europe?
islam is not "spreading" and it is not "feared". europeans do not take the stance of intolerance and not wanting it. shut up shut up shut up.
the west isnt welcomed in the ME? is that a joke? where have you been for the last decade? the only reason the west isn't welcomed in the ME is when we're capitalistically raping it for our own greedy profits-- culturally a lot of western religion and culture has been accepted into the ME. beduin's example of churches and christian places of worship is a good example; a european institution being integrated without complaints or government-bans into middle-eastern culture.
talking to you about islam is like talking to hitler about the jews so i won't waste my time...
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I totally agree rdx but you lack one huge important factor ... you say it took generations for immigrants to blend in and that still stands, immigrants from the ME is a fairly new endevour and they will also blend in eventually ...
The first large numbers of ME immigrants arrived in Europe in the 70s and they still amount to less than half of the total immigrants, they will also need more than a couple of generations to blend in ...
Like you mention in the last paragraph ... the biggest problem in Europe pr date is poor eastern European criminal immigrants ...
The first large numbers of ME immigrants arrived in Europe in the 70s and they still amount to less than half of the total immigrants, they will also need more than a couple of generations to blend in ...
Like you mention in the last paragraph ... the biggest problem in Europe pr date is poor eastern European criminal immigrants ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Have more kids and breed them out You're all breeding yourselves towards extinction.Varegg wrote:
I totally agree rdx but you lack one huge important factor ... you say it took generations for immigrants to blend in and that still stands, immigrants from the ME is a fairly new endevour and they will also blend in eventually ...
The first large numbers of ME immigrants arrived in Europe in the 70s and they still amount to less than half of the total immigrants, they will also need more than a couple of generations to blend in ...
Like you mention in the last paragraph ... the biggest problem in Europe pr date is poor eastern European criminal immigrants ...
Last edited by JohnG@lt (2009-12-02 05:48:27)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Funny you should mention breeding, immigrants tend you level out breeding in a couple of generations so it matches the country they live in ... if they didn't the amount of Norwegian Americans would amount to 849 million ...JohnG@lt wrote:
Have more kids and breed them out You're all breeding yourselves towards extinction.Varegg wrote:
I totally agree rdx but you lack one huge important factor ... you say it took generations for immigrants to blend in and that still stands, immigrants from the ME is a fairly new endevour and they will also blend in eventually ...
The first large numbers of ME immigrants arrived in Europe in the 70s and they still amount to less than half of the total immigrants, they will also need more than a couple of generations to blend in ...
Like you mention in the last paragraph ... the biggest problem in Europe pr date is poor eastern European criminal immigrants ...
Besides I have 3 kids so I'm doing my part
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
http://www.pregnantpause.org/numbers/fertility.htmVaregg wrote:
Funny you should mention breeding, immigrants tend you level out breeding in a couple of generations so it matches the country they live in ... if they didn't the amount of Norwegian Americans would amount to 849 million ...
Besides I have 3 kids so I'm doing my part
Looks like only the Czech's have a sustainable birth rate.
Edit - Iceland too.
Last edited by JohnG@lt (2009-12-02 06:00:26)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Well if you wouldn't have edited my post you would have quoted me saying, "because whatever I post you will dismiss or deny or excuses as biased sources, racism, prejudiced, bigoted, or generalizing", so again, I am not going to waste my time.DonFck wrote:
To prove your argument correct? So far, you have done very little to support your claim that Islam (as a whole, since you failed to define any further but decided to use the term as broadly as possible) is a threat.lowing wrote:
So tell me, why do I need to waste time with that bullshit?lowing wrote:
Fantastic.
Tell ya what though, if you wanna post articles about Islam and its history and current event surrounding it, do so, and I will use it against you citing the violence, laws and actions of that culture/religion.
Last edited by lowing (2009-12-02 17:26:42)
Not only actions Varegg, also add beliefs and laws, and that goes farther than a mere few.Varegg wrote:
He can't Donnie ... he base his narrow minded crap on the actions of a very few ... if something or someone is intolerant it is lowing ...
Yup, Criminals are not worthy, and neither are those whose belief system curtails the freedom of others, that belief system should not be allowed in a society that tries to uphold freedom for everyone. If you want to practice it, take it to a country that up holds such beliefs in their laws.Spark wrote:
Freedom is only granted to the worthy, eh?lowing wrote:
It is a paradox, however I have come to terms with it.Kmarion wrote:
Which is precisely what I was getting at. Tis why I said I was torn.
Banning intolerance I can live with.
like I said, regardless if you deny it or not. there is a reason there is a movement to ban things Islamic, burkas, archetecture, etc..People are sick of Islam in the west, and it isn't for "no reason"Uzique wrote:
Lowing you are a dumb motherfucker- have you even been to europe?
islam is not "spreading" and it is not "feared". europeans do not take the stance of intolerance and not wanting it. shut up shut up shut up.
the west isnt welcomed in the ME? is that a joke? where have you been for the last decade? the only reason the west isn't welcomed in the ME is when we're capitalistically raping it for our own greedy profits-- culturally a lot of western religion and culture has been accepted into the ME. beduin's example of churches and christian places of worship is a good example; a european institution being integrated without complaints or government-bans into middle-eastern culture.
talking to you about islam is like talking to hitler about the jews so i won't waste my time...
We raped the ME? Please tell me what was rapped from the ME? Because I am quite certain buy their oil that we developed and brought to market.
Belief never killed anyone, laws never killed anyone ... actions however do, and only a mere few do actions that kills someone ...lowing wrote:
Not only actions Varegg, also add beliefs and laws, and that goes farther than a mere few.Varegg wrote:
He can't Donnie ... he base his narrow minded crap on the actions of a very few ... if something or someone is intolerant it is lowing ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
There is a movement to ban archetecture?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Sorry, if those beliefs and laws curtail freedoms and is intolerant of others, it counts, and does not belong in western society.Varegg wrote:
Belief never killed anyone, laws never killed anyone ... actions however do, and only a mere few do actions that kills someone ...lowing wrote:
Not only actions Varegg, also add beliefs and laws, and that goes farther than a mere few.Varegg wrote:
He can't Donnie ... he base his narrow minded crap on the actions of a very few ... if something or someone is intolerant it is lowing ...
nope, already estabished that. It is a move against IslamVaregg wrote:
There is a movement to ban archetecture?
That was a joke tbhlowing wrote:
nope, already estabished that. It is a move against IslamVaregg wrote:
There is a movement to ban archetecture?
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Soooo ... how does those believes and laws curtail your freedoms lowing?lowing wrote:
Sorry, if those beliefs and laws curtail freedoms and is intolerant of others, it counts, and does not belong in western society.Varegg wrote:
Belief never killed anyone, laws never killed anyone ... actions however do, and only a mere few do actions that kills someone ...lowing wrote:
Not only actions Varegg, also add beliefs and laws, and that goes farther than a mere few.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
JohnG@lt wrote:
There are about 100,000 Christians in Iraq too. They were there even before the war. Suppressed by Saddam, yes, but now they can worship openly without fear of firing squads.
From 2007 : http://www.catholicnews.com/data/storie … 704487.htmChristians, "paradoxically, were more protected under the dictatorship," he said.
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
...show me the schematic
Honestly this is awesome. Too much we're overrun by other cultures and religions, so it's good that they took a populars vote and are actually honoring it. I don't understand why the elected officials would be for these monstrosities that are eye sores and serve really no purpose then to let people know where they're place of worship are.
Honestly if they're having a mass influx of immigrants why should the previous people who have been living in the land cater to them?
Honestly if they're having a mass influx of immigrants why should the previous people who have been living in the land cater to them?
Seeing how Islam kinda like the beacon of intolerance against most things I don't really see this as a bad thing to do.
Islam demand respect but don't give any back. They always flare up once they are slightly insulted and A LOT of Muslims do this. They are fine with Freedom of Speech AS LONG as it doesn't put a negative view on their religion. Then it should be banned.
Among so many other things.
I'd be happy if Islam disappeared all together and I wouldn't shed a tear about it. Every other religion have made their peace while Islam is still fighting and claiming to be Religion of Peace.
But they voted for it right? So the majority won, big deal. Now all we need to do is stop making the Islamic laws get into Europe. In UK some have already gotten in and it's probably just the start.
We certainly don't need anything from Islam, we got the rules we need. We got our norms and holidays. What could Islam offer other than trouble? And a messed up religion.
Islam demand respect but don't give any back. They always flare up once they are slightly insulted and A LOT of Muslims do this. They are fine with Freedom of Speech AS LONG as it doesn't put a negative view on their religion. Then it should be banned.
Among so many other things.
I'd be happy if Islam disappeared all together and I wouldn't shed a tear about it. Every other religion have made their peace while Islam is still fighting and claiming to be Religion of Peace.
But they voted for it right? So the majority won, big deal. Now all we need to do is stop making the Islamic laws get into Europe. In UK some have already gotten in and it's probably just the start.
We certainly don't need anything from Islam, we got the rules we need. We got our norms and holidays. What could Islam offer other than trouble? And a messed up religion.