German father charged over son's shooting spree

2009-11-28 04:54:51

#1

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5872

Tim Kretschmer, 17, took his father's pistol and burst into his former school in Winnenden, near Stuttgart, opening fire, before killing himself.

His father has now been charged with 15 counts of manslaughter for failing to keep his gun secure.

Prosecutors said he had "negligently" stored weapons and bullets.

Kretschmer used his father's legally-registered pistol to kill eight schoolgirls, a schoolboy and three teachers at Albertville secondary school on 11 March.

Quantity of ammunition

He then commandeered a car and killed two more people in the town of Wendlingen, 40km (25 miles) away before he shot himself as police approached.

His father Joerg had legally kept more than a dozen weapons in his house.

Prosecutors said his father had "negligently made possible the actions of his son in that he stored the weapons... in such a way that Tim could get his hands on a gun and a large amount of ammunition."

He has been charged with 15 counts of manslaughter, 13 counts of grievous bodily harm and breaking gun laws, the prosecution said.

15 kill streak, he should have used the EMP and kept going till he got the nuke.
So does anyone else find it crazy to punish the father for his sons actions, the kid was nearly an adult anyway.

2009-11-28 05:01:06

#2

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,817|6392|eXtreme to the maX

No.
He didn't store his guns securely, he's liable. In fact he apparently kept the pistol and ammunition unlocked in the bedroom.
So, he broke the law and is liable.

Fuck Israel

2009-11-28 05:01:56

#3

jord: Member; +2,382|6965|The North, beyond the wall.

Stupid. If he stole a sword from a shop and killed 50 people kill bill style would the shop be held responsible?

2009-11-28 05:44:52

#4

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6806|Πάϊ

Sounds ok to me. If you want guns you best keep them safe.

jord wrote:
Stupid. If he stole a sword from a shop and killed 50 people kill bill style would the shop be held responsible?

It's not the same and you know it.

_ƒ³

2009-11-28 05:46:01

#5

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6439|what

jord wrote:
Stupid. If he stole a sword from a shop and killed 50 people kill bill style would the shop be held responsible?

If they didn't secure their weapons properly, yes.

2009-11-28 05:50:27

#6

jord: Member; +2,382|6965|The North, beyond the wall.

oug wrote:
Sounds ok to me. If you want guns you best keep them safe.

jord wrote:
Stupid. If he stole a sword from a shop and killed 50 people kill bill style would the shop be held responsible?
It's not the same and you know it.

Why?

I don't think a father who trusted his 17 year old son should be punished for his sons crimes. It's not like he left a loaded shotgun on the table for a 4 year old to shoot himself. 17 is old enough to be responsible for your own actions.

Last edited by jord (2009-11-28 05:50:44)

2009-11-28 06:06:08

#7

Narupug: Fodder Mostly; +150|5883|Vacationland

Who's responsible is not the problem, the problem is that he did not secure his gun correctly allowing someone to take it and go shoot people. If a 40 year old man had broken in and stolen it he would have still been held responsible, though maybe not to the same extent.

2009-11-28 06:14:37

#8

jord: Member; +2,382|6965|The North, beyond the wall.

Narupug wrote:
Who's responsible is not the problem, the problem is that he did not secure his gun correctly allowing someone to take it and go shoot people. If a 40 year old man had broken in and stolen it he would have still been held responsible, though maybe not to the same extent.

Who's responsible is the only problem as far as I can see. A man has not only lost his son, he's being charged for the deaths of 15 people and may well go to prison for the remainder of his life for doing what I'm sure 10 million people across the world do, trust their 15/16/17 year olds with firearms.

2009-11-28 06:27:26

#9

DUnlimited: got any popo lolo intersting?; +1,160|6750|cuntshitlake

jord wrote:
Narupug wrote:
Who's responsible is not the problem, the problem is that he did not secure his gun correctly allowing someone to take it and go shoot people. If a 40 year old man had broken in and stolen it he would have still been held responsible, though maybe not to the same extent.
Who's responsible is the only problem as far as I can see. A man has not only lost his son, he's being charged for the deaths of 15 people and may well go to prison for the remainder of his life for doing what I'm sure 10 million people across the world do, trust their 15/16/17 year olds with firearms.

This. We keep the guns in this house in an armored locker but I've had access to them since I was like 14. Yes this guy should be punished for keeping them in the open, but he did not kill the people.

main battle tank karthus medikopter 117 megamegapowershot gg

2009-11-28 07:02:24

#10

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6806|Πάϊ

jord wrote:
Who's responsible is the only problem as far as I can see. A man has not only lost his son, he's being charged for the deaths of 15 people and may well go to prison for the remainder of his life for doing what I'm sure 10 million people across the world do, trust their 15/16/17 year olds with firearms.

There is no reason to keep guns in the house. By having them he run the risk of them coming in the hands of others. So do your 10 million people. If he can't handle losing his son and being charged for murders he shouldn't have kept guns. Tough break.

_ƒ³

2009-11-28 07:06:47

#11

DUnlimited: got any popo lolo intersting?; +1,160|6750|cuntshitlake

oug wrote:
If he can't handle losing his son and being charged for murders he shouldn't have kept guns.

What the fuck are you on about?

main battle tank karthus medikopter 117 megamegapowershot gg

2009-11-28 07:11:12

#12

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6806|Πάϊ

what part do you not understand

_ƒ³

2009-11-28 07:23:01

#13

DUnlimited: got any popo lolo intersting?; +1,160|6750|cuntshitlake

You are implying that everyone owning guns should prepare to lose their son and get jailed for 15 murders.

main battle tank karthus medikopter 117 megamegapowershot gg

2009-11-28 07:23:26

#14

jord: Member; +2,382|6965|The North, beyond the wall.

oug wrote:
jord wrote:
Who's responsible is the only problem as far as I can see. A man has not only lost his son, he's being charged for the deaths of 15 people and may well go to prison for the remainder of his life for doing what I'm sure 10 million people across the world do, trust their 15/16/17 year olds with firearms.
There is no reason to keep guns in the house. By having them he run the risk of them coming in the hands of others. So do your 10 million people. If he can't handle losing his son and being charged for murders he shouldn't have kept guns. Tough break.

Ugh, it's perfectly legal to keep firearms in his house, who are you to dictate what reasons someone needs for a possession? What are you talking about tough break? Sigh...

2009-11-28 07:25:46

#15

TSI: Cholera in the time of love; +247|6267|Toronto

While the father is indeed responsible for ensuring his weapons are stored properly and securely (and should be charged with breach of gun storage laws because they were not), I don't think it is fair for him to bear resposibility for his son's actions--he wwas, after all, a 17-year old, who can bear criminal resposibility).
Thus, the charges of manslaughter are a bit far-fetched; (it's good that the courts realised that he did not have the mens rea, and so can't be charged with murder) he did not play any role in the actual shooting. It'd be like saying that all the parents who let their kids take their cars would be criminally responsible for any and all deaths or injuries caused. Simply not logical.

I like pie.

2009-11-28 08:11:47

#16

-Sh1fty-: plundering yee booty; +510|5760|Ventura, California

He should only be charged with insecure weapons, not with manslaughter. This is ridiculous.

Where's KuSTaV with his funny line, "I put the laughter in manslaughter"

And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.

2009-11-28 08:21:58

#17

Narupug: Fodder Mostly; +150|5883|Vacationland

jord wrote:
Narupug wrote:
Who's responsible is not the problem, the problem is that he did not secure his gun correctly allowing someone to take it and go shoot people. If a 40 year old man had broken in and stolen it he would have still been held responsible, though maybe not to the same extent.
Who's responsible is the only problem as far as I can see. A man has not only lost his son, he's being charged for the deaths of 15 people and may well go to prison for the remainder of his life for doing what I'm sure 10 million people across the world do, trust their 15/16/17 year olds with firearms.

Admitted, it's a bit excessive. Maybe 1 count of manslaughter for allowing his son access to the guns. Definitely should get rung up on secure gun laws though.

2009-11-28 08:48:40

#18

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5645|London, England

-Sh1fty- wrote:
He should only be charged with insecure weapons, not with manslaughter. This is ridiculous.

Where's KuSTaV with his funny line, "I put the laughter in manslaughter"

This. Society is not responsible for the actions of the kid. The father is not responsible for the actions of the kid. The gun manufacturer isn't responsible for the kid. It was the kids decision to pull the trigger.

It's funny that people shit all over the rights of parents to raise their kids as they see fit but as soon as a kid goes berserk it's all the parents fault. Why not blame his teachers in school or his classmates too? :p

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2009-11-28 09:04:02

#19

Flecco: iPod is broken.; +1,048|6951|NT, like Mick Dundee

Bah, charge the father and punish him according to his crime of not securing the weapon.

Not the son's crimes. 15 counts of manslaughter is excessive. Especially when you consider the emotional trauma he's probably already suffered, along with media backlash and problems in his personal life.

Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.

2009-11-28 10:21:18

#20

-Sh1fty-: plundering yee booty; +510|5760|Ventura, California

Guns don't kill, people kill. If it wasn't the fathers weapon it would have been the kitchen knife. Oh wait, they'd punish him for that too.

Securing weapons is an important thing. Nobody other than the kid is responsible for the actions he took. I'm so sick of this shit in today's world. I think I'll resign from this thread.

But keep up the interesting posts!

And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.

2009-11-28 10:34:41

#21

SEREMAKER: BABYMAKIN EXPERT √; +2,187|6855|Mountains of NC

mmmmmmmmmmm no-one went after the ammo manufactures ....... the gun is just a paper weight without the proper ammo

serious side : just charged with the improper securing of his firearms and ammo .................. if this went through that the father is held responsible for his 17 year olds action ......... the same could be said about everyday action .. a teenager with a license gets in a accident and both the teenager and parents are held responsible

https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg

2009-11-28 12:36:33

#22

oug: Calmer than you are.; +380|6806|Πάϊ

jord wrote:
Ugh, it's perfectly legal to keep firearms in his house, who are you to dictate what reasons someone needs for a possession? What are you talking about tough break? Sigh...

Did I say it was illegal? I said it was a risk. He took it and all those people are dead. So now he will have to face the consequences.
Tell you what. If my kid got killed by some other kid whose daddy liked guns I'd kill his entire family and the dog and piss on their grave.
Try telling the parents of the dead it was legal.

_ƒ³

2009-11-28 12:41:37

#23

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5645|London, England

oug wrote:
jord wrote:
Ugh, it's perfectly legal to keep firearms in his house, who are you to dictate what reasons someone needs for a possession? What are you talking about tough break? Sigh...
Did I say it was illegal? I said it was a risk. He took it and all those people are dead. So now he will have to face the consequences.
Tell you what. If my kid got killed by some other kid whose daddy liked guns I'd kill his entire family and the dog and piss on their grave.
Try telling the parents of the dead it was legal.

It must suck to be completely devoted to your feelings instead of using your rational mind. Is this you?

https://www.emoboyfriend.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/another-emo-kid.jpg

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2009-11-28 12:58:41

#24

Diesel_dyk: Object in mirror will feel larger than it appears; +178|6281|Truthistan

The kids to blame for his own actions.
If the dad gave him the keys to the car and the kids mowed down a bunch of children, would he be charged with manslaughter? .. how about if it was a knife or a spork?

Its exactly the same and this is nothing but "fearful gun hysteria" at its worst and it really highlights the attitudes in Europe versus the attitudes in the US. Public policy should not be set by victims families because shit happens and the world isn't a safe place.

IMO Europeans need to grow a pair and redraw the line to where it needs to be and stopped listening to hysterical crap from people who think the entire world can be made safe.

2009-11-28 13:03:41

#25

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5872

Diesel_dyk wrote:
The kids to blame for his own actions.
If the dad gave him the keys to the car and the kids mowed down a bunch of children, would he be charged with manslaughter? .. how about if it was a knife or a spork?

Its exactly the same and this is nothing but "fearful gun hysteria" at its worst and it really highlights the attitudes in Europe versus the attitudes in the US. Public policy should not be set by victims families because shit happens and the world isn't a safe place.

IMO Europeans need to grow a pair and redraw the line to where it needs to be and stopped listening to hysterical crap from people who think the entire world can be made safe.

WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH THE REAL DIESEL_DYK?!

BF2S Forums German father charged over son's shooting spree

jord wrote:

jord wrote:

oug wrote:

jord wrote:

Narupug wrote:

jord wrote:

Narupug wrote:

jord wrote:

oug wrote:

oug wrote:

jord wrote:

jord wrote:

Narupug wrote:

-Sh1fty- wrote:

jord wrote:

oug wrote:

jord wrote:

Diesel_dyk wrote:

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