And how do you suppose they become illegal?I read a report the other day that said the majority of guns used against police officers were illegally acquired. Not at gun shows, not at gun shops, but illegally acquired.
Fuck Israel
Little Jimmy down on the corner is making them a penny a piece out of discarded coke cans.Dilbert_X wrote:
And how do you suppose they become illegal?I read a report the other day that said the majority of guns used against police officers were illegally acquired. Not at gun shows, not at gun shops, but illegally acquired.
Wow, that got covered locally pretty quickly.
There was one small blip in there that was false. The weapons being carried in AZ when Obama was there weren't automatic weapons. They were semi-automatic.chuyskywalker wrote:
Wow, that got covered locally pretty quickly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYWz7BEEg1k
I think they look stupid walking around with a gun in plain view. The whole open carry thing is retarded. Concealed weapons would be more appropriate and are no more a danger.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
How they look is very dependent on how they dress...at least in most people's eyes.JohnG@lt wrote:
]I think they look stupid walking around with a gun in plain view. The whole open carry thing is retarded. Concealed weapons would be more appropriate and are no more a danger.
Concealed is good for a host of reasons (non-intrusive, no LE hassles, no freaked out soccer moms, and the element of surprise if ever confronted). It also takes a lot more effort to do legally in most places.
For example, in Colorado.
To open carry, I would need to have a holster, a gun, and a belt.
To carry concealed, I would need to fill out an application, make an appointment at the Sheriff's office, get two cashier's checks for $150, and wait until they mailed my license to me. After all that, I can wear a coat over my pistol, and not freak out people scared of guns. To me, it would generally be worth it, but that's still a few hours of work and $150 that I could spend elsewhere.
(I don't carry. I spend the majority of my time in a "no carry" zone and am going to move in 7 months, so it would be a waste of $150 to get a permit, IMO.)
No, I know it's a lot more of a hassle to carry concealed. My argument is that it's silly and kind of backwards. Wouldn't it be better to not freak out people and cause controversy like these guys are doing? Cops want to see the weapons out in the open because it makes them feel safer but I as a citizen would prefer people to keep them covered up.RAIMIUS wrote:
How they look is very dependent on how they dress...at least in most people's eyes.JohnG@lt wrote:
]I think they look stupid walking around with a gun in plain view. The whole open carry thing is retarded. Concealed weapons would be more appropriate and are no more a danger.
Concealed is good for a host of reasons (non-intrusive, no LE hassles, no freaked out soccer moms, and the element of surprise if ever confronted). It also takes a lot more effort to do legally in most places.
For example, in Colorado.
To open carry, I would need to have a holster, a gun, and a belt.
To carry concealed, I would need to fill out an application, make an appointment at the Sheriff's office, get two cashier's checks for $150, and wait until they mailed my license to me. After all that, I can wear a coat over my pistol, and not freak out people scared of guns. To me, it would generally be worth it, but that's still a few hours of work and $150 that I could spend elsewhere.
(I don't carry. I spend the majority of my time in a "no carry" zone and am going to move in 7 months, so it would be a waste of $150 to get a permit, IMO.)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Counterpoint: Wouldn't it be better if people weren't freaked out by the presence of firearms and treated people like the innocent, respectable fellow citizens they are 99.8% of the time?JohnG@lt wrote:
Wouldn't it be better to not freak out people and cause controversy like these guys are doing? Cops want to see the weapons out in the open because it makes them feel safer but I as a citizen would prefer people to keep them covered up.
(As a side note: CA, being a "may issue" state, the Sheriffs tend to lean towards "won't issue" more often than not -- it is very difficult, if not impossible, to get a CCW)
i get flyers on the windshield of my car when i go in the grocery store, advertising "100% pass rate" for concealed carry permit.chuyskywalker wrote:
(As a side note: CA, being a "may issue" state, the Sheriffs tend to lean towards "won't issue" more often than not -- it is very difficult, if not impossible, to get a CCW)
I remember the "assault weapon ban" from the 90's. Seem to think that included the 10+ mag capacity ban... Asinine. So Cali took that and ran with it... Ugh. Come to think, when buying knives or guns -vendors have that "won't ship to Cali" printed out next to certain guns and knives. Guess now I know why.chuyskywalker wrote:
Because CA has some of the most ridiculous gun rules ever. For example, my Keltec rifle here is perfectly legal. However, if I add a foregrip, it become illegal. Whaa?! Or if I add a pistol grip instead of the rifle stock it's then illegal. >.< Guns in CA get banned simply for 'looking scary', not for any practical reason. As an example: you can't purchase .50 caliber rifles -- why? Because they could be used in crimes....yeah, all the gangs have been jumping out of their socks to purchase non-concealable, 26 lbs. rifles for 2-3,000 $ with bullets that cost about 2-5$ per shot.DBBrinson1 wrote:
Do you know the reasoning why the gun must be unloaded? You see many Californians carrying?
Secondly, no, you hardly ever see anyone open carry -- but I was only aware of open carry while living in SF and I am sure you'd get the shit harassed out of you if you did it there. Why? Take as an example: "San Francisco County" is a "may issue" CCW county. Meaning that if the Sheriff deems it so, they may issue you a CCW permit -- in the last 20 years only about 5 have been issued. With an attitude like that towards concealed carry, think about how they feel about open carry
Wow. Yer' sheriff sucks. Issuing concealed permits is a good thing for law abiding citizens. Sounds to me like he doesn't care too much for the well being of the people he's sworn to protect (also would bring in revenue to the state). I was looking for the data released by our Agriculture dept. but couldn't find it (was on here a long time ago). It would interest you -as it clearly illustrates CWP's are good. Something like less then 1/10 of one percent of issued permit holders in the last 20 years (over a million issued -if I remember correctly) abuse it. A few months back I go my Sherrif to sign off on a class III approval for a gem-tech suppressor going on mah' HK USP. Just dropped off the form... Didn't even talk to him. Actually that was almost a year ago... I probably should make a phone call. I wish FL had an open carry.
Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2009-11-22 11:13:50)
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
absolutely retarded behavior by total nutjobs. including you atg.
this accomplishes nothing except force ordinary people to live out their lives in complete fear.
btw, i have a ccw permit.
this accomplishes nothing except force ordinary people to live out their lives in complete fear.
btw, i have a ccw permit.
Last edited by CoronadoSEAL (2009-11-22 14:14:44)
Carrying a firearm in the open is "retarded behavior"? Perhaps they'd have a CWP like you -but Chuy said, they're extremely hard to get.CoronadoSEAL wrote:
absolutely retarded behavior by total nutjobs. including you atg.
this accomplishes nothing except force ordinary people to live out their lives in complete fear.
btw, i have a ccw permit.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
yes, retarded behavior.
why am i repeating myself? i feel like i'm talking to a woman.
so just because something is hard to get it somehow justifies the closest legal resemblance? awsm logic.
why am i repeating myself? i feel like i'm talking to a woman.
so just because something is hard to get it somehow justifies the closest legal resemblance? awsm logic.
CoronadoSEAL wrote:
absolutely retarded behavior by total nutjobs. including you atg.
this accomplishes nothing except force ordinary people to live out their lives in complete fear
I just don't understand the point of open carry of an unloaded gun.JohnG@lt wrote:
I think they look stupid walking around with a gun in plain view. The whole open carry thing is retarded. Concealed weapons would be more appropriate and are no more a danger.
Fuck Israel
What? I'm not being the bitch here. If law abiding citizens wants to carry a weapon and can't readily obtain the means through a CWP -then what's your problem with them carrying it the prescribed lawfully manner by the state? Or wait -is it just your right to carry? I'd rather be able to look over at someone see -oh he's carrying other then get the surprise. Besides you should worry about the drawn gun, not the holstered one. der. Sure you understand rights and want the monumental responsibility that comes along with carrying a deadly weapon?CoronadoSEAL wrote:
yes, retarded behavior.
why am i repeating myself? i feel like i'm talking to a woman.
so just because something is hard to get it somehow justifies the closest legal resemblance? awsm logic.
Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2009-11-22 21:15:48)
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
And the kids/parents who see the guns and are ignorant to the law? Tough shit? Great logic, you're following the law but at the same time hurting those around you.DBBrinson1 wrote:
What? I'm not being the bitch here. If law abiding citizens wants to carry a weapon and can't readily obtain the means through a CWP -then what's your problem with them carrying it the prescribed lawfully manner by the state? Or wait -is it just your right to carry? I'd rather be able to look over at someone see -oh he's carrying other then get the surprise. Besides you should worry about the drawn gun, not the holstered one. der. Sure you understand rights and want the monumental responsibility that comes along with carrying a deadly weapon?CoronadoSEAL wrote:
yes, retarded behavior.
why am i repeating myself? i feel like i'm talking to a woman.
so just because something is hard to get it somehow justifies the closest legal resemblance? awsm logic.
Just curious here but what are the statistics on armed civilians, either CCW or open carry, stopping a crime in progress?
very rarely... they just use it for show...mcminty wrote:
Just curious here but what are the statistics on armed civilians, either CCW or open carry, stopping a crime in progress?
I think in most cases unless you're directly involved you're not permitted to get involved.mcminty wrote:
Just curious here but what are the statistics on armed civilians, either CCW or open carry, stopping a crime in progress?
Most states also have a requirement that you back out and walk away if you can, unless you're Batman obviously.
Fuck Israel
here are the stats for Floridamcminty wrote:
Just curious here but what are the statistics on armed civilians, either CCW or open carry, stopping a crime in progress?
I find it telling that of the roughly 1.7 MILLION permits issued since 1987 -there's only been just over 4 thousand infractions. That's less than 1%... Actually .2%. Lawful carry is not the problem. Shadow's reply is full of shit for that can't be accurately measured. For example if a crime wasn't committed because a criminal decided not to because he suspected the victim was carrying... I'd bet it'd be in the millions of crimes prevented or stopped due to someone carrying. Most criminals are cowards and will not f' with someone that is armed. Here's a tragic event. Things could have been different, he could have been stopped. But the lady followed the law. Too bad the criminal didn't.
In Florida you have the right to stop a forcible felony using deadly force.Dilbert_X wrote:
I think in most cases unless you're directly involved you're not permitted to get involved.
Most states also have a requirement that you back out and walk away if you can, unless you're Batman obviously.
By your logic -their ignorance of the law should supersede another's rights. Yea... Great logic there.Hakei wrote:
And the kids/parents who see the guns and are ignorant to the law? Tough shit? Great logic, you're following the law but at the same time hurting those around you.
Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2009-11-23 07:45:41)
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
aw how sad for themHakei wrote:
And the kids/parents who see the guns and are ignorant to the law? Tough shit? Great logic, you're following the law but at the same time hurting those around you.
Florida and Texas are the exceptions?In Florida you have the right to stop a forcible felony using deadly force.
Fuck Israel
There are not a lot of solid statistics. Most studies use "Defensive Gun Uses" which include CCW, open carry, car "carry", business and home defense, etc. The US National Crime Victimization Survey usually records about 100,000 DGUs in the United States, per year. For various reasons, some claim this is a low number.mcminty wrote:
Just curious here but what are the statistics on armed civilians, either CCW or open carry, stopping a crime in progress?
On the high side, Criminologist Gary Kleck did a random phone survey. He found between 1 million and 2.5 million DGUs per year. Unfortunately, this study could have easily fallen to false positives (which would greatly inflate the numbers)
Defensive gun use and stopping a crime in progress are not quite the same.
CCW for self defense I don't have a problem with, carrying a gun in the hope you can wade into a firefight in a public place is something different.
In assailant vs victim it would be clear what was happening, assailant vs victim + collection of random strangers who don't really know whats going on is a recipe for trouble.
How would a plainclothes officer take someone down for example? They risk getting shot by some starry-eyed Guns'n Ammo reader.
CCW for self defense I don't have a problem with, carrying a gun in the hope you can wade into a firefight in a public place is something different.
In assailant vs victim it would be clear what was happening, assailant vs victim + collection of random strangers who don't really know whats going on is a recipe for trouble.
How would a plainclothes officer take someone down for example? They risk getting shot by some starry-eyed Guns'n Ammo reader.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-11-23 15:41:51)
Fuck Israel
You are assuming that these people are gun psychos just looking for an excuse to blast something; which is uninformed and a crutch to all your arguments. And naturally, as wildly sensational generalizations usually go, it's wrong.Dilbert_X wrote:
CCW for self defense I don't have a problem with, carrying a gun in the hope you can wade into a firefight in a public place is something different.
If you spend much time in gun culture you'll find that this really isn't the mentality. Go take a course in Self Defense with a Firearm -- I guarantee that one of the first things out of the instructor's mouth is something along the lines of "The best use of your firearm is to not use it."[3] Most people who carry firearms take it quite seriously and have a high level of respect for what they're toting around. They take classes, are usually educated, and are generally 'good people'.
Of course there are a few nut jobs and bad apples[1] -- there always are, but trying to characterize a statistically proven[2] responsible group of people like this is plainly wrong.
[1] Most people are responsible drivers too, but every once in a while someone goes apeshit and drives through a crowd or a building. Shit happens.
[2] As previously noted, CCW's have only been denied to roughly 5,000 people out of 1.6 million in a 25 year period in Florida -- mostly for crimes not involving firearms.
[3] This even makes it into the Wikipedia article on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_ … s#Training
167 out of 1,647,823. The numbers don't lie. .01013%.... How can one argue with that????chuyskywalker wrote:
[2] As previously noted, CCW's have only been denied to roughly 5,000 people out of 1.6 million in a 25 year period in Florida -- mostly for crimes not involving firearms.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.