Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5366|London, England

Diesel_dyk wrote:

Hmmmmmmmmmm

What I find interesting in all this is that the global warming movement is largely a left wing or "socialist" movement, but if you look at the solutions being proposed they are wholly market solutions with the creation of a carbon credit market. Now doesn't that seem strange that a leftist movement is going to propose one solution and only one solution and its going to involve creating a market out of carbon..... Since when does the left embrace capitalism as the solution for anything. You would think that the solution proposed from the left would be prohibition, regulation or taxation but its not... now shouldn't your antenae be flicking about now because there is something here that is a disconnect between the values and character of the people driving the movement and the values and the character of the solutions being pushed. And to make matters even more weird you have the right wingers fighting the creation of a new market and the use of a free market as a solution.

It should make you go hmmmmmmm.........

There is a disconnect here and IMO its race between getting these markets implemented and the time when this recent hot cycle of the sun ends and the global warming science is finally debunked.

But if those markets come on line, good luck ever getting rid of them. And here is another disconnect, if you create a market out of carbon, then aren't you putting carbon emission in a status where they will never be eliminated? What I am pointing out is that if your goal is to reduce carbon emissions, then how is profiting from a carbon market going to accomplish that when the elimination of carbon will reduce the carbon credit market to what should be the point where the market is eliminated.  your ulitmate goal is to put yourself out of business? That's a type of stock market that really doesn't make sense.

What the push for a carbon credit market reminds me of is the movement to control public water supplies in places like central and south america where private companies gained control over water and started to gouge profits by increasing the price of water by 300% or more. If the carbon credit market comes on line that's what our fate will look like as commodiy brokers, hedge funds and other crooks cause energy prices to sprial out of control.


Anyway the debunking has finally started here is a website http://cce.890m.com/ and a review of a book http://www.lavoisier.com.au/articles/gr … review.pdf
They aren't embracing capitalism though, they're embracing a form of mercantilism. Left wing economic policies are all over the place which is why they generally fail. It's all a mix of Keynesian capitalism, Marxist socialism and Mercantilism. It's what you get when you have a bunch of people whose eyes glazed over in economics class running the show.

The idea is actually as anti-capitalistic as you can get. They aren't producing a good or a service, there is no equitable trade being made, all they are doing is skimming off the top and manipulating the law in order to create an artificial monopoly which they will control in perpetuity. It's one of the big things that Adam Smith railed against in Wealth of Nations. Look up "rent seeking" on wikipedia.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2009-11-19 21:35:11)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6682|Canberra, AUS

mcminty wrote:

jord wrote:

I for one think a little warmer weather will be fantastic.
Come live here.
I just love forty degree days weeks. In spring.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
mcminty
Moderating your content for the Australian Govt.
+879|6729|Sydney, Australia

Spark wrote:

mcminty wrote:

jord wrote:

I for one think a little warmer weather will be fantastic.
Come live here.
I just love forty degree days weeks. In spring.
It's fucking beautiful isn't it. 6:30pm and it's 34°C outside. Will be like this until monday. Fuck yeah.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6682|Canberra, AUS

mcminty wrote:

Spark wrote:

mcminty wrote:


Come live here.
I just love forty degree days weeks. In spring.
It's fucking beautiful isn't it. 6:30pm and it's 34°C outside. Will be like this until monday. Fuck yeah.
I have a pool
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6689|Disaster Free Zone

Spark wrote:

mcminty wrote:

Spark wrote:


I just love forty degree days weeks. In spring.
It's fucking beautiful isn't it. 6:30pm and it's 34°C outside. Will be like this until monday. Fuck yeah.
I have a pool
I have a beach :p

10:40pm 30 degrees
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6682|Canberra, AUS

DrunkFace wrote:

Spark wrote:

mcminty wrote:


It's fucking beautiful isn't it. 6:30pm and it's 34°C outside. Will be like this until monday. Fuck yeah.
I have a pool
I have a beach :p

10:40pm 30 degrees
a mere 29 here
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
jsnipy
...
+3,276|6530|...

Something is happening to the planet that's for sure and I agree humans should stop acting like whores and shitting all over nature so to speak. However, I was under the impression that it is still not 100% conclusive that man in whole or in part is causing this. Am I mistaken?
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6682|Canberra, AUS

jsnipy wrote:

Something is happening to the planet that's for sure and I agree humans should stop acting like whores and shitting all over nature so to speak. However, I was under the impression that it is still not 100% conclusive that man in whole or in part is causing this. Am I mistaken?
Of course not, nothing in science ever is, except maths.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
S.Lythberg
Mastermind
+429|6455|Chicago, IL

jsnipy wrote:

Something is happening to the planet that's for sure and I agree humans should stop acting like whores and shitting all over nature so to speak. However, I was under the impression that it is still not 100% conclusive that man in whole or in part is causing this. Am I mistaken?
It's not certain, but it's still dirty and poisonous, so either way, we should try to stop polluting
13rin
Member
+977|6487
Just heard on Limbaugh...

http://climatedepot.com/

BUSTED!  A hacked e-mails from a UK leading GW proponent illustrate a massive coverup to push the GW agenda even though the data goes against it.  If these e's are legit... WOW.  How bout them "scientists" now?
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6657

DBBrinson1 wrote:

Just heard on Limbaugh...

http://climatedepot.com/

BUSTED!  A hacked e-mails from a UK leading GW proponent illustrate a massive coverup to push the GW agenda even though the data goes against it.  If these e's are legit... WOW.  How bout them "scientists" now?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_ … e_Tomorrow

Its financial backers have included The Exxon Mobil Corporation (although Exxon no longer donates to CFACT),[6] The Chevron Corporation,[7] The DaimlerChrysler Corporation Fund
Sounds exactly like the sort of place you want to be getting information about climate change on... When an actual news organisation runs it, I'll listen.
13rin
Member
+977|6487

ghettoperson wrote:

When an actual news organisation runs it, I'll listen.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 … ked-emails
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6657

DBBrinson1 wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

When an actual news organisation runs it, I'll listen.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 … ked-emails
Intriguing, although it remains to be seen as to whether it's even a legitimate email, or whether the quotes are taken out of context to sound like manipulation. I have a very hard time believing the majority of scientists on earth all got together and said "lets pretend the climate is changing". I find it nigh on impossible to believe that could remain a secret for so long.
13rin
Member
+977|6487

Inhoe to Boxer "GET A LIFE"
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something.  - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6344|Oregon

DBBrinson1 wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

When an actual news organisation runs it, I'll listen.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 … ked-emails
It is commonplace for those in a minority, whose opinion cannot be backed by facts or research, to allege mass conspiracy.

Take a deep breath and stop looking over your shoulder. Nobody's gonna kill ya.

The world is not like that. No matter how much you want to believe there is a phantom force of fact-forgers and decision-makers colluding to um... wait what exactly is the point of this conspiracy again?... There is not. It would take nearly universal compliance from every climate scientist in the world. And keep in mind these are quite intelligent people. It is very hard to convince a very large group of very smart people - whose field of expertise is irrefutably humanitarian - to do something so uselessly corrupt and misleading.
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6556|San Diego, CA, USA
Here's another article from a different source on the hacked emails:

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andr … cked#63657

Hacked e-mails appear to uncover massive global warming fraud

(Melbourne Herald Sun) The 1,079 emails and 72 documents seem indeed evidence of a scandal involving most of the most prominent scientists pushing the man-made warming theory...

Found on http://www.michaelsavage.wnd.com/

Last edited by Harmor (2009-11-20 13:25:04)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5366|London, England

djphetal wrote:

DBBrinson1 wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

When an actual news organisation runs it, I'll listen.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 … ked-emails
It is commonplace for those in a minority, whose opinion cannot be backed by facts or research, to allege mass conspiracy.

Take a deep breath and stop looking over your shoulder. Nobody's gonna kill ya.

The world is not like that. No matter how much you want to believe there is a phantom force of fact-forgers and decision-makers colluding to um... wait what exactly is the point of this conspiracy again?... There is not. It would take nearly universal compliance from every climate scientist in the world. And keep in mind these are quite intelligent people. It is very hard to convince a very large group of very smart people - whose field of expertise is irrefutably humanitarian - to do something so uselessly corrupt and misleading.
Prove that you are in the majority.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6657

JohnG@lt wrote:

djphetal wrote:

It is commonplace for those in a minority, whose opinion cannot be backed by facts or research, to allege mass conspiracy.

Take a deep breath and stop looking over your shoulder. Nobody's gonna kill ya.

The world is not like that. No matter how much you want to believe there is a phantom force of fact-forgers and decision-makers colluding to um... wait what exactly is the point of this conspiracy again?... There is not. It would take nearly universal compliance from every climate scientist in the world. And keep in mind these are quite intelligent people. It is very hard to convince a very large group of very smart people - whose field of expertise is irrefutably humanitarian - to do something so uselessly corrupt and misleading.
Prove that you are in the majority.
Because the only people that don't believe in it are American Conservatives and you?
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6344|Oregon

JohnG@lt wrote:

djphetal wrote:

It is commonplace for those in a minority, whose opinion cannot be backed by facts or research, to allege mass conspiracy.

Take a deep breath and stop looking over your shoulder. Nobody's gonna kill ya.

The world is not like that. No matter how much you want to believe there is a phantom force of fact-forgers and decision-makers colluding to um... wait what exactly is the point of this conspiracy again?... There is not. It would take nearly universal compliance from every climate scientist in the world. And keep in mind these are quite intelligent people. It is very hard to convince a very large group of very smart people - whose field of expertise is irrefutably humanitarian - to do something so uselessly corrupt and misleading.
Prove that you are in the majority.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 … -change-us
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7010522.stm
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/ … ra/631.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_controversy - the 'public opinion' section and "science - consensus" section.

Just so you know, it was a fool's errand to take me to task on that point. It requires nothin' but ignorance to not understand where the majority lies in this discussion.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5366|London, England

djphetal wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

djphetal wrote:

It is commonplace for those in a minority, whose opinion cannot be backed by facts or research, to allege mass conspiracy.

Take a deep breath and stop looking over your shoulder. Nobody's gonna kill ya.

The world is not like that. No matter how much you want to believe there is a phantom force of fact-forgers and decision-makers colluding to um... wait what exactly is the point of this conspiracy again?... There is not. It would take nearly universal compliance from every climate scientist in the world. And keep in mind these are quite intelligent people. It is very hard to convince a very large group of very smart people - whose field of expertise is irrefutably humanitarian - to do something so uselessly corrupt and misleading.
Prove that you are in the majority.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 … -change-us
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7010522.stm
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/ … ra/631.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_controversy - the 'public opinion' section and "science - consensus" section.

Just so you know, it was a fool's errand to take me to task on that point. It requires nothin' but ignorance to not understand where the majority lies in this discussion.
Only 44% of Americans thought climate change should be a major preoccupation for the Obama administration. It appears I'm in good company.

It amazes me how many people will point out that the person criticizing 'global warming' is asked if they've done the scientific readings themselves or studied the data and yet the people making the accusation take it on faith. I prefer to be a skeptic in all things, especially when the arguments are stripped down and the people backing the movement are exposed, it appears to be nothing more than a money and power grab of epic proportions. I wish I could convince everyone in the world that the sky was falling. I'd sell them the only umbrella capable of protecting them.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2009-11-20 13:51:12)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6344|Oregon

JohnG@lt wrote:

Only 44% of Americans thought climate change should be a major preoccupation for the Obama administration. It appears I'm in good company.
Man you are bad at this. Fantastic work extracting the one possibly supportive aspect of the data I posted. I saw that coming a mile away.

Major preoccupations of the Obama administration:

Iraq/Afghanistan wars
Economic implosion
Health Care
Repairing global standing.

I would be in the 56 percent, with you, who would not wish Obama and friends make climate change a priority. Being nicer to Earth has to start with a change in lifestyle and escaping the mindset of over-consumption which holds the world so firmly right now. The government certainly can help us out in this, and they have already, and I'm sure we'll see a stronger push as soon as the Health Care debate and issues on troops in Afghanistan are resolved.
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6344|Oregon

JohnG@lt wrote:

It amazes me how many people will point out that the person criticizing 'global warming' is asked if they've done the scientific readings themselves or studied the data and yet the people making the accusation take it on faith. I prefer to be a skeptic in all things, especially when the arguments are stripped down and the people backing the movement are exposed, it appears to be nothing more than a money and power grab of epic proportions. I wish I could convince everyone in the world that the sky was falling. I'd sell them the only umbrella capable of protecting them.
A money and power grab? Now what exactly are the climatologists selling you? Oh that's right... they're giving guilt away! For free! Fuck them, I don't want to feel guilt! I don't want to think about "problems!"
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5366|London, England

djphetal wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

It amazes me how many people will point out that the person criticizing 'global warming' is asked if they've done the scientific readings themselves or studied the data and yet the people making the accusation take it on faith. I prefer to be a skeptic in all things, especially when the arguments are stripped down and the people backing the movement are exposed, it appears to be nothing more than a money and power grab of epic proportions. I wish I could convince everyone in the world that the sky was falling. I'd sell them the only umbrella capable of protecting them.
A money and power grab? Now what exactly are the climatologists selling you? Oh that's right... they're giving guilt away! For free! Fuck them, I don't want to feel guilt! I don't want to think about "problems!"
So you think Cap and Trade and carbon credit sales are the solution?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
djphetal
Go Ducks.
+346|6344|Oregon

JohnG@lt wrote:

djphetal wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

It amazes me how many people will point out that the person criticizing 'global warming' is asked if they've done the scientific readings themselves or studied the data and yet the people making the accusation take it on faith. I prefer to be a skeptic in all things, especially when the arguments are stripped down and the people backing the movement are exposed, it appears to be nothing more than a money and power grab of epic proportions. I wish I could convince everyone in the world that the sky was falling. I'd sell them the only umbrella capable of protecting them.
A money and power grab? Now what exactly are the climatologists selling you? Oh that's right... they're giving guilt away! For free! Fuck them, I don't want to feel guilt! I don't want to think about "problems!"
So you think Cap and Trade and carbon credit sales are the solution?
Not necessarily. I'm far from an economic expert and while I like a lot of what Cap and Trade offers, I doubt it will last as a system if it's ever implemented.
This discussion has been about whether or not Global Warming is indeed an observed trend or rather, an elaborate hoax involving a lot of people. It has not been about solutions to global warming or the political aspect.

Someone who really cares about climate change understands that Global Warming is an effect of the mistreatment of Earth. Even in the unlikely scenario that the effects of GW are entirely independent of mankind (though I don't know how you can look past the near physical certainty of the greenhouse effect) it is undeniable that the airborne pollution on this planet is growing steadily worse.

I can see the only possible motive for conspiracy being to convince an obviously very stubborn and unobservant public to make earth a cleaner place. And if that is indeed the case, then I'm glad to know that the first legitimate global scientific conspiracy is about doing better for Earth. But lets grow up a few years and not be such victims. They're not all out to get us.

Last edited by djphetal (2009-11-20 14:14:05)

Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5366|London, England

djphetal wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

djphetal wrote:


A money and power grab? Now what exactly are the climatologists selling you? Oh that's right... they're giving guilt away! For free! Fuck them, I don't want to feel guilt! I don't want to think about "problems!"
So you think Cap and Trade and carbon credit sales are the solution?
Not necessarily. I'm far from an economic expert and while I like a lot of what Cap and Trade offers, I doubt it will last as a system if it's ever implemented.
This discussion has been about whether or not Global Warming is indeed an observed trend or rather, an elaborate hoax involving a lot of people. It has not been about solutions to global warming or the political aspect.

Someone who really cares about climate change understands that Global Warming is an effect of the mistreatment of Earth. Even in the unlikely scenario that the effects of GW are entirely independent of mankind (though I don't know how you can look past the near physical certainty of the greenhouse effect) it is undeniable that the airborne pollution on this planet is growing steadily worse.

I can see the only possible motive for conspiracy being to convince an obviously very stubborn and unobservant public to make earth a cleaner place. And if that is indeed the case, then I'm glad to know that the first legitimate global scientific conspiracy is about doing better for Earth. But lets grow up a few years and not be such victims. They're not all out to get us.
No, this entire thread has been about the political and economic ramifications of the legislation they've proposed. Very little of it has been hippies whining about mother earths cries, so thanks for adding that bit. Read the last few pages, you might learn something valuable.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

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