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2009-11-01 15:38:46
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Beduin wrote:

FEOS wrote:

It's been eight years. I think the Coalition has figured out how to get across Afghanistan at this point. It's easier for us than it is for the Taliban, at least.
Now you know why I say we are failing.
No. I don't.

Beduin wrote:

Am curious. what did we accomplish in afghanistan? Maybe I will learn something new
Is the Taliban still in power, abetting Al Qaeda? No.

Is there an elected (granted, problematic at this point, but still elected) government in Kabul? Yes.

Was there an elected government in Kabul before? No.

Are people being killed in soccer stadiums for going to school? No.

Can women get an education? Yes (and see previous question).

Much has been accomplished in Afghanistan. If you've got your head buried so far in the sand that you can't see the difference between now and eight years ago in that country, no amount of facts are going to extricate your skull from that place.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2009-11-01 15:39:34
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6037|شمال

FEOS wrote:

Beduin wrote:

FEOS wrote:

It's been eight years. I think the Coalition has figured out how to get across Afghanistan at this point. It's easier for us than it is for the Taliban, at least.
Now you know why I say we are failing.
No. I don't.

Beduin wrote:

Am curious. what did we accomplish in afghanistan? Maybe I will learn something new
Is the Taliban still in power, abetting Al Qaeda? No.

Is there an elected (granted, problematic at this point, but still elected) government in Kabul? Yes.

Was there an elected government in Kabul before? No.

Are people being killed in soccer stadiums for going to school? No.

Can women get an education? Yes (and see previous question).

Much has been accomplished in Afghanistan. If you've got your head buried so far in the sand that you can't see the difference between now and eight years ago in that country, no amount of facts are going to extricate your skull from that place.
lol... ök
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2009-11-01 15:40:30
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Beduin wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Beduin wrote:


Now you know why I say we are failing.
No. I don't.

Beduin wrote:

Am curious. what did we accomplish in afghanistan? Maybe I will learn something new
Is the Taliban still in power, abetting Al Qaeda? No.

Is there an elected (granted, problematic at this point, but still elected) government in Kabul? Yes.

Was there an elected government in Kabul before? No.

Are people being killed in soccer stadiums for going to school? No.

Can women get an education? Yes (and see previous question).

Much has been accomplished in Afghanistan. If you've got your head buried so far in the sand that you can't see the difference between now and eight years ago in that country, no amount of facts are going to extricate your skull from that place.
lol... ök
Nice response.

I guess if you can't show how things aren't better now than they were eight years ago, you say "lol...ok".
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2009-11-01 15:42:47
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6037|شمال

FEOS wrote:

Nice response.

I guess if you can't show how things aren't better now than they were eight years ago, you say "lol...ok".
You reminde me of lowing... no offence both
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2009-11-01 15:56:26
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Beduin wrote:

FEOS wrote:

Nice response.

I guess if you can't show how things aren't better now than they were eight years ago, you say "lol...ok".
You reminde me of lowing... no offence both
Whatever.

If you're going to debate, then debate. If you're going to respond with "lol...ok", then don't bother.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2009-11-01 16:27:16
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX
The current Afghan govt is in place because they have the US and NATO backing them, not because they are nice people.
In different circumstances they WOULD be consolidating their power with violence and totalitarian actions.
Fuck Israel
2009-11-01 17:01:22
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

The current Afghan govt is in place because they have the US and NATO backing them, not because they are nice people.
In different circumstances they WOULD be consolidating their power with violence and totalitarian actions.
Must be nice to be omniscient.

Right now, it's the Afghan Armed Forces that are backing them. No violence or totalitarian actions. Weird.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2009-11-01 17:42:45
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX
Omniscience is awsome.

It would be interesting to see what they got up to if the coalition left, I don't think it would be pretty.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-11-01 17:43:06)

Fuck Israel
2009-11-01 17:49:27
Harmor
Error_Name_Not_Found
+605|6835|San Diego, CA, USA
Democrats can't win wars...we might as well pull out of Afghanistan and because it'll be a low moral bleeding of our troops and our resources.

We don't have the stomach necessary to win this war.  Besides Pakistan is holding us back.  We know where they are yet we can't get them.
2009-11-01 17:55:13
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX
Seems Vietnam has taught us nothing.
The Republicans failed also BTW.
Fuck Israel
2009-11-01 18:14:27
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Seems Vietnam has taught us nothing.
If you think that, then you haven't been paying attention.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2009-11-01 18:16:02
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX
Maybe you haven't been reading the OP.
Fuck Israel
2009-11-01 18:22:41
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Maybe you haven't been reading the OP.
No, I've been reading the entirety of the thread.

I would never say this is the same thing as Vietnam. It is different on many levels, most of which have already been discussed.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2009-11-01 21:19:26
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7001|US
If you think we haven't learned from Vietnam, you haven't been paying attention to 25 years of analysis.

Some would say we are paying too much attention to what happened in Vietnam and Malaysia.  Most of our counterinsurgency strategies are based off of Cold War examples.  There are differences, and some of them may be vitally important.

Are most of the insurgents fighting to topple the government, or do they simply want the profits from the poppy fields to keep pouring in?
2009-11-01 21:35:14
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX
Are most of the insurgents fighting to topple the government, or do they simply want the profits from the poppy fields to keep pouring in?
Doesn't really matter, they are peasants fighting and not being beaten by a superpower.
With the population being pissed off I'm not sure if its going forward or backwards.

I did watch a doco the other night about a British unit out there.
To hold down two Taleban they fired off 3-4 javelin missiles, and called in an F15 strike to finish them.
Javelins at $80,000 a go, plus the airstrike seems pretty bloody expensive, what happened to field guns?
Fuck Israel
2009-11-02 01:32:22
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6037|شمال

Dilbert_X wrote:

I did watch a doco the other night about a British unit out there.
To hold down two Taleban they fired off 3-4 javelin missiles, and called in an F15 strike to finish them.
Javelins at $80,000 a go, plus the airstrike seems pretty bloody expensive, what happened to field guns?
They are fighting Ghosts. They hear shots, they see soldiers get hit, but no clue of where and how many they are up against.
Thats why they call airstirkes. Civies get hit by the bombs, ghosts disappears, and they end up with bodies of families and destroyed houses.
That again pisses off the afghan people and taliban can say: Look what they do to you, ride along with us and you will get your revenge!

Last edited by Beduin (2009-11-02 01:33:07)

الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2009-11-02 02:05:37
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6037|شمال
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2009-11-02 03:08:15
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Beduin wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

I did watch a doco the other night about a British unit out there.
To hold down two Taleban they fired off 3-4 javelin missiles, and called in an F15 strike to finish them.
Javelins at $80,000 a go, plus the airstrike seems pretty bloody expensive, what happened to field guns?
They are fighting Ghosts. They hear shots, they see soldiers get hit, but no clue of where and how many they are up against.
Thats why they call airstirkes. Civies get hit by the bombs, ghosts disappears, and they end up with bodies of families and destroyed houses.
That again pisses off the afghan people and taliban can say: Look what they do to you, ride along with us and you will get your revenge!
That's propagadish nonsense. Do you work for the Taliban or something?

The number of airstrikes that happen versus the number of civilian deaths (claimed or actual) is a very VERY small ratio, particularly with the revised ROE implemented by McChrystal.

As to the "what happened to field guns" question: air support is far more mobile.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2009-11-02 03:32:17
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6037|شمال

FEOS wrote:

That's propagadish nonsense. Do you work for the Taliban or something?
No, I just stated one main parameter that influence the winning of the hearts and souls of the afghan people.
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2009-11-02 03:40:56
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6698|'Murka

Beduin wrote:

FEOS wrote:

That's propagadish nonsense. Do you work for the Taliban or something?
No, I just stated one main parameter that influence the winning of the hearts and souls of the afghan people.
And by perpetuating a falsehood, you are doing exactly what it was I asked you were doing.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2009-11-02 03:50:29
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6037|شمال

FEOS wrote:

Beduin wrote:

FEOS wrote:

That's propagadish nonsense. Do you work for the Taliban or something?
No, I just stated one main parameter that influence the winning of the hearts and souls of the afghan people.
And by perpetuating a falsehood, you are doing exactly what it was I asked you were doing.
Google + "nato kills civilians in afghanistan airstrike" = Facts?
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2009-11-02 04:12:29
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6393|eXtreme to the maX

FEOS wrote:

As to the "what happened to field guns" question: air support is far more mobile.
I was referring to the Javelins.
I would have thought a 75mm or 105mm field gun would be almost as easy to shift around as a truck full of Javelins, and much cheaper to operate.
Fuck Israel
2009-11-02 04:18:47
Beduin
Compensation of Reactive Power in the grid
+510|6037|شمال
and the winner is.....                                                                                  Karzai
الشعب يريد اسقاط النظام
...show me the schematic
2009-11-02 04:59:46
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7003

Beduin wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUZe-7aeL8o
Yeah because the UN SG fired the inspector who was making sure there was no corruption. Failure of the UN, not the US.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
2009-11-02 07:41:14
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|7001|US

Dilbert_X wrote:

Are most of the insurgents fighting to topple the government, or do they simply want the profits from the poppy fields to keep pouring in?
Doesn't really matter...
Are you fucking serious?!  You think the motivation of insurgents doesn't matter when conducting COIN?
Either you are the Confucious of military operations, lightyears ahead of the conventional wisdom, or you are a complete idiot in this field.  Can you guess which one I think is more correct?


Beduin,
Yes, airstrikes can do a lot of damage to the coalition reputation.  That is why McChrystal changed the ROE and gets pissed when he doesn't hear about an airstrike until 12 hours later.  It is also why the USAF is investing heavily in things like Reapers and Small Diameter Bombs.

 

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