Pages: 1

 

2009-10-29 08:28:17
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6829|Texas - Bigger than France
In the healthcare debate there's been an ongoing debate about what's cheaper - government or private insurance.

Debate aside, is changing to universal healthcare going to result in a massive cut in healthcare costs?  Maybe, maybe not.

But there is an opportunity here no matter what happens.

Basic economics...how does a product become less expensive?  Increase the supply.

I have a few hospital officials I talk with regularly...within the current system, there's not as many doctors and hospitals turning away as many unisured as you would believe.  But the emergency rooms are booked all day long, mostly with non-threatening minor issues.  The ER is the most expensive in terms of treatment options. 

And when you see a doctor...how many times do you actually need to see a doctor?  Can't the nurse practioner do just as well for most of the patients?

If we increased the number of clinics and accessibility to health services not directly involving a doctor, there's got to be a true savings.  This can be accomplished by either by educating the public or building more clinics.

We went to the ER because our doctor recommended it for an ear infection for one of my kids over a weekend.  Insurance cost = $2,300.  I paid $125.  I wonder what the cost would have been if I just went straight to a clinic?  Why didn't I?  The doc didn't refer me to one...

Unless I'm getting drugs, I don't need to see a doctor - the nurse practioner or clinic will do.  Or do we need to also look at expanding the healthcare network for prescriptions beyond doctors for all but a few types of drugs?

Wouldn't that option save more money than the current healthcare debate?
2009-10-29 08:33:45
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6994|67.222.138.85
lol economics fail

You have to shift the supply, not try to artificially inflate the supply along the same curve. In other words you have to give the supplier a reason to change his supply, and then the equilibrium price will change accordingly - but you can't arbitrarily increase the supply with the end goal of lowering prices. It doesn't work that way.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_ … _of_supply
2009-10-29 08:36:09
Red Forman
Banned
+402|5687
ER shouldnt be the most expensive if you think about it.  half of them are interns ffs, not specialists.
2009-10-29 08:39:34
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6994|67.222.138.85

Red Forman wrote:

ER shouldnt be the most expensive if you think about it.  half of them are interns ffs, not specialists.
I would imagine malpractice insurance and the occasional ridiculous 5 people nearly dead from a car accident kind of thing dramatically increases their cost. Then the additional load of people going to the ER that don't really need to bumps it up even more because of the extra administrative (but not necessarily medical) manpower.
2009-10-29 08:40:58
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6829|Texas - Bigger than France

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

lol economics fail

You have to shift the supply, not try to artificially inflate the supply along the same curve. In other words you have to give the supplier a reason to change his supply, and then the equilibrium price will change accordingly - but you can't arbitrarily increase the supply with the end goal of lowering prices. It doesn't work that way.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_ … _of_supply
So basically you believe healthcare isn't at capacity...how long is the wait for healthcare in your town?

You might have to explain your point a little better.
2009-10-29 08:41:29
Red Forman
Banned
+402|5687

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Red Forman wrote:

ER shouldnt be the most expensive if you think about it.  half of them are interns ffs, not specialists.
I would imagine malpractice insurance and the occasional ridiculous 5 people nearly dead from a car accident kind of thing dramatically increases their cost. Then the additional load of people going to the ER that don't really need to bumps it up even more because of the extra administrative (but not necessarily medical) manpower.
sounds like BS to me.  I mean, that is like saying Southwest Airlines should cost more to fly than Netjets or something.
2009-10-29 08:43:46
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6829|Texas - Bigger than France

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Red Forman wrote:

ER shouldnt be the most expensive if you think about it.  half of them are interns ffs, not specialists.
I would imagine malpractice insurance and the occasional ridiculous 5 people nearly dead from a car accident kind of thing dramatically increases their cost. Then the additional load of people going to the ER that don't really need to bumps it up even more because of the extra administrative (but not necessarily medical) manpower.
I would also imagine that going to a clinic has a hell of a lot less overhead than a hospital.

Keep in mind I'm not talking about insurance vs. national healthcare...
2009-10-29 10:06:50
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6994|67.222.138.85

Pug wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

lol economics fail

You have to shift the supply, not try to artificially inflate the supply along the same curve. In other words you have to give the supplier a reason to change his supply, and then the equilibrium price will change accordingly - but you can't arbitrarily increase the supply with the end goal of lowering prices. It doesn't work that way.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_are_the_ … _of_supply
So basically you believe healthcare isn't at capacity...how long is the wait for healthcare in your town?

You might have to explain your point a little better.
It is at equilibrium. No one is going to supply more because the demand doesn't warrant it. People are only going to supply more if there is economic incentive to do so - my link lists what those incentives would be.

I'll edit in paint graphs in a second.

edit:
https://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g44/Flaming_Maniac/paint.jpg

The changes you describe will force the first example, increasing prices. The effect you desire comes from shifting the curve, which comes to be by changing the incentives to produce.

Red Forman wrote:

sounds like BS to me.  I mean, that is like saying Southwest Airlines should cost more to fly than Netjets or something.
Yeah it is BS, that was kind of my point. It shouldn't cost that much if the idea of the ER went back to what it should be - an emergency room - but because of all the bullshit surrounding it it's more expensive to run as it is than you would think it should be.

I suppose my point is that it really does cost the hospital so much money to run an ER that it justifies the seemingly ridiculous bills you get from it, but it's not the hospital's fault. It's the system surrounding the hospital that makes it that way.
2009-10-29 10:19:16
Red Forman
Banned
+402|5687
i know that was your point.  i think HC is a huge scam.  NHS or not it is a scam.
2009-10-29 10:23:09
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6994|67.222.138.85
Well don't blame the airline, blame the airplane manufacturer and the FAA.
2009-10-29 11:39:54
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6829|Texas - Bigger than France
I disagree, because the current market conditions means there's more room for competition.

I believe the current system is inefficient - aka going to the ER for an ear ache - there is an opportunity for segmentation.  I also believe in the current system the demand for care outnumbers the doctors' ability to serve them.  Which means resegmenting (more authority to clinics and nurses) would mean more competition.

You think based on the current demographics in the US the healthcare costs aren't going to be increasing in the future?

If we are at equilibrium, the extra overhead of adding more supply would increase the prices.  But since when have you gone to a doctor or the ER and not had an hour's wait?  Anyone else calling for an appointment and getting a "we can see you in three weeks"?  So no, I don't think we are at equilibrium.

How long's the wait in your town FM?
2009-10-29 11:55:50
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6994|67.222.138.85
There is significantly less than an hour wait in my home town at clinics, doctor's offices, and actual emergencies in the ER. There are two hospitals near my home, various doctor's offices minutes away, and two doc-in-a-box operations within 5 minutes. I have never had trouble getting appointments in the first place, and moving appointments is never much of a problem either with things like regular ear/eye/dental type appointments.

In my current residence I made an appointment at the campus doctor's office for the next day, there were times open that day but I was busy. I waited 10 minutes.

Don't go to the ER for an ear infection. That's stupid. Of course you get put at the bottom of the stack.

Speaking strictly about economics however, just because the entire there is lag time doesn't mean there is demand to warrant additional, profitable supply. You are confusing the fact that the idea of supply applies solely to the supplier - not the consumer. If the demand on the part of the consumer is sufficient then there will be incentive for the supplier to produce more - but just because people are bitching about the current level of service doesn't mean they are actually willing to demand a greater level of service at additional cost (see figure 1 for graphical representation).
2009-10-29 13:41:41
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6829|Texas - Bigger than France
Hmmm...you must have a flood of healthcare in your neck of the woods, so yeah, I can understand why we differ here...


"Don't go to the ER for an ear infection."

Point here: people do.  This is the main complaint of the hospital administrators.  Which is why I'm saying we need more clinics and we need to force people to go there.  Why are they not going to the clinic?

Well about four months ago I had the flu.  Called doc for appointment: we can see you in two weeks.  Went by two clinics: no parking = full waiting room.  Thought about hospital = full waiting room.  Went home.  Next day I went to the clinic and waited 3 hours.  This wasn't swine flu crap, it was the random sick folks in the waiting room.  So...our system is short on supply.

I asked the question to my hospital admin friends...what percentage can be handled by clinics & other healthcare facilities that get served in your ER?  "75% to 80%".

So....back to the OP.  Why aren't people going to the clinics instead?  In my town = capacity.  What is it your town?

And don't you think that going somewhere besides an ER is going to be less expensive?  That's what I'm talking about...more capacity or more education or some sort of fix.
2009-10-29 14:46:49
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6994|67.222.138.85
The ER is expensive because people go to it unnecessarily. They have to serve both the actual emergency cases and do the work of a clinic as well. If you got people to avoid using the ER unless they really needed it then the cost would be correlated with the care directly, not inflated so much.

But, people aren't going to go to a clinic whenever they should. People get hurt, their kid gets sick, a lot of people are going to freak and play it safe with the ER. Supply might be part of the problem, but companies are going to expand anyways if there is money to be made. Part of the fundamental problem is we can't force people to do what they want to do. They are still going to go to the ER.
2009-10-29 14:50:23
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6829|Texas - Bigger than France
Excellent.  That's exactly what I'm saying.

Now they just need to limit access to the ER and we'll be in bidness

Why do people go there?  It pretty much costs the same amount to go to either.  Jack up the ER deductible and make everyone think twice...that's one painful way to fix it
2009-10-30 08:55:14
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6968|Disaster Free Zone
The last time I was at the hospital for anything other then visiting was my birthday, and I've never been to the ER.

Also Pug I don't know what you constitute a 'clinic' or what it does but here that's where you'll find a majority of our doctors, while hospitals are predominately nurses.
2009-10-30 11:09:23
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6868|SE London

Whenever things are being paid for by insurance, of any sort, they are always overcharged for.

Insurance companies approve payment for something and then the company billing them charges loads.

That's one potential reason that government insurance wouldn't lead to substantial savings.
2009-10-30 11:23:30
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6829|Texas - Bigger than France
Based on the fact I usually only hearing "rising healthcare costs" constantly...are we really at equilibrium?

 

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