Should you add finding/killing Osama to your list?Harmor wrote:
A "win" in Afghanistan would require the following:
Actually I purposefully left him off because once we catch him then the public will say, "we're done" and want to leave.AussieReaper wrote:
Should you add finding/killing Osama to your list?Harmor wrote:
A "win" in Afghanistan would require the following:
I know al-Quada is a multi-headed hydra and once one leader is killed there are 1000 other Mohammads ready to take his place.
Really we'll continue to have forms a terrorism until Islam has a reformation and a majority of Islamists abhor violence and jihad, but that's not going to happen for at least 100 years at the earliest.
1 Build a massive wall around a small chunk of Afghan
2 Build the chunk inside the wall up to a decent standard of living, much better than anything that has been before in that country - this means houses, schools, education, the works.
3 If all of Afghan is living well, party. Otherwise repeat from 1
2 Build the chunk inside the wall up to a decent standard of living, much better than anything that has been before in that country - this means houses, schools, education, the works.
3 If all of Afghan is living well, party. Otherwise repeat from 1
Last edited by Pubic (2009-10-10 02:05:50)
You're going to have terrorism as long as there are people who feel hard done by and are crazy enough to take their fury out by 'alternate means'.Harmor wrote:
Actually I purposefully left him off because once we catch him then the public will say, "we're done" and want to leave.AussieReaper wrote:
Should you add finding/killing Osama to your list?Harmor wrote:
A "win" in Afghanistan would require the following:
I know al-Quada is a multi-headed hydra and once one leader is killed there are 1000 other Mohammads ready to take his place.
Really we'll continue to have forms a terrorism until Islam has a reformation and a majority of Islamists abhor violence and jihad, but that's not going to happen for at least 100 years at the earliest.
Read: forever.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Islamic terrorism will die out when the oil runs out because nobody will give a shit about the Middle East then. You have to figure out where this all started. If people think the reason that you have so many Islamic terrorists and shit is because they hate your freedom and want you to convert to Islam than you're really naive.
Islamic terrorism isn't really a problem that stems from Islam itself. If you think it'll all be over when they decide to "reform" themselves you have no clue what you're even talking about.
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I say let the Taliban take over Afghanistan. Let the worms come out of the woodwork after a few years. Then step on them out in the open when they least expect it.
Islamic terrorism isn't really a problem that stems from Islam itself. If you think it'll all be over when they decide to "reform" themselves you have no clue what you're even talking about.
---
I say let the Taliban take over Afghanistan. Let the worms come out of the woodwork after a few years. Then step on them out in the open when they least expect it.
Last edited by Mekstizzle (2009-10-10 08:47:00)
Right, because the Muslims never tried to conquer Europe before oil was discovered to be useful... Face it man, religious extremists will target anyone trying to undermine their choke hold on their people. You call them out and say stoning their wives for showing a bit of ankle is evil and they will want to kill you.Mekstizzle wrote:
Islamic terrorism will die out when the oil runs out because nobody will give a shit about the Middle East then. You have to figure out where this all started. If people think the reason that you have so many Islamic terrorists and shit is because they hate your freedom and want you to convert to Islam than you're really naive.
Islamic terrorism isn't really a problem that stems from Islam itself. If you think it'll all be over when they decide to "reform" themselves you have no clue what you're even talking about.
---
I say let the Taliban take over Afghanistan. Let the worms come out of the woodwork after a few years. Then step on them out in the open when they least expect it.
The first recourse of anyone who can't back up their beliefs rationally or whose beliefs are attacked is violence. Why do most pub fights start? They're surely not rational 99.9% of the time.
Last edited by JohnG@lt (2009-10-10 08:52:34)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Is there actually any point in fighting this unwinnable and hugely costly war of attrition? Has anyone done a cost-benefit analysis of this stupid venture?
Last edited by CameronPoe (2009-10-10 08:56:19)
That was before. I know all too well that Islam was intent on conquering the world. However, so was alot of other things. You can say the same shit about Christianity. Hell, Christians went down the route of Genocide to get their way in the New World. It was almost exactly the same for Christian Europe. Infact Europe itself was/is victim to Christianity, it's not like it originated in Europe.JohnG@lt wrote:
Right, because the Muslims never tried to conquer Europe before oil was discovered to be useful... Face it man, religious extremists will target anyone trying to undermine their choke hold on their people. You call them out and say stoning their wives for showing a bit of ankle is evil and they will want to kill you.Mekstizzle wrote:
Islamic terrorism will die out when the oil runs out because nobody will give a shit about the Middle East then. You have to figure out where this all started. If people think the reason that you have so many Islamic terrorists and shit is because they hate your freedom and want you to convert to Islam than you're really naive.
Islamic terrorism isn't really a problem that stems from Islam itself. If you think it'll all be over when they decide to "reform" themselves you have no clue what you're even talking about.
---
I say let the Taliban take over Afghanistan. Let the worms come out of the woodwork after a few years. Then step on them out in the open when they least expect it.
The first recourse of anyone who can't back up their beliefs rationally or whose beliefs are attacked is violence. Why do most pub fights start? They're surely not rational 99.9% of the time.
Talking about modern day Islamic terrorism. It really doesn't stem from the fact that they hate everyone for not being Muslim or sticking to their ways. Sure, they use that as further basis to justify their attacks and recruit people, but the real reasons they started hating on people is usually different. It's not like suddenly they started picking on America for no reason because they hated your freedom. I mean come on. I don't remember Islamic terrorists fighting the revolutionaries in 1776.
i stopped taking notice at your thread when i read "much larger threat to American way of life"ATG wrote:
This is no failure of the men carrying guns but a surrender by the politicians, who imo are a much larger threat to American way of life than Al Queda.
You're neglecting the fact that the world is much flatter recently due to telecommunications and air travel. Terrorism has picked up because they have the means to attack far away targets. They didn't have the ability previously. Would we be facing suicide bombing sailing vessels if the world hadn't advanced?Mekstizzle wrote:
That was before. I know all too well that Islam was intent on conquering the world. However, so was alot of other things. You can say the same shit about Christianity. Hell, Christians went down the route of Genocide to get their way in the New World. It was almost exactly the same for Christian Europe. Infact Europe itself was/is victim to Christianity, it's not like it originated in Europe.JohnG@lt wrote:
Right, because the Muslims never tried to conquer Europe before oil was discovered to be useful... Face it man, religious extremists will target anyone trying to undermine their choke hold on their people. You call them out and say stoning their wives for showing a bit of ankle is evil and they will want to kill you.Mekstizzle wrote:
Islamic terrorism will die out when the oil runs out because nobody will give a shit about the Middle East then. You have to figure out where this all started. If people think the reason that you have so many Islamic terrorists and shit is because they hate your freedom and want you to convert to Islam than you're really naive.
Islamic terrorism isn't really a problem that stems from Islam itself. If you think it'll all be over when they decide to "reform" themselves you have no clue what you're even talking about.
---
I say let the Taliban take over Afghanistan. Let the worms come out of the woodwork after a few years. Then step on them out in the open when they least expect it.
The first recourse of anyone who can't back up their beliefs rationally or whose beliefs are attacked is violence. Why do most pub fights start? They're surely not rational 99.9% of the time.
Talking about modern day Islamic terrorism. It really doesn't stem from the fact that they hate everyone for not being Muslim or sticking to their ways. Sure, they use that as further basis to justify their attacks and recruit people, but the real reasons they started hating on people is usually different. It's not like suddenly they started picking on America for no reason because they hated your freedom. I mean come on. I don't remember Islamic terrorists fighting the revolutionaries in 1776.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Still doesn't explain why they hate the US more than anything else. And only recently, I don't remember all this hatred towards the US before. It's all stemmed since the rise of Oil and interference in the Middle East about Israel and shit.
You can continue to think what you want though. If it helps you to think that your country is just an innocent country attacked for its basic beliefs by a bunch of evil people who just hate you for everything you stand for then continue to do so.
Some people can't accept that things can be partly their fault. People like you probably think all of Americas problems stems from the fact that everyone else is an idiot and not themselves.
You can continue to think what you want though. If it helps you to think that your country is just an innocent country attacked for its basic beliefs by a bunch of evil people who just hate you for everything you stand for then continue to do so.
Some people can't accept that things can be partly their fault. People like you probably think all of Americas problems stems from the fact that everyone else is an idiot and not themselves.
read this linkMekstizzle wrote:
Still doesn't explain why they hate the US more than anything else. And only recently, I don't remember all this hatred towards the US before. It's all stemmed since the rise of Oil and interference in the Middle East about Israel and shit.
You can continue to think what you want though. If it helps you to think that your country is just an innocent country attacked for its basic beliefs by a bunch of evil people who just hate you for everything you stand for then continue to do so.
Some people can't accept that things can be partly their fault. People like you probably think all of Americas problems stems from the fact that everyone else is an idiot and not themselves.
http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?pi … 8#p2841028
No, it 100% has to do with our blindly backing Israel. I don't think oil plays much of a role tbh, it's not like we're the only country over there doing exploration etc. But we are the most visible backers of Israel. Should we be? I think the country is powerful enough to stand on its own at this point but if it were facing unwarranted invasion we should be ready to help the nation like we did in Kuwait in 1991.Mekstizzle wrote:
Still doesn't explain why they hate the US more than anything else. And only recently, I don't remember all this hatred towards the US before. It's all stemmed since the rise of Oil and interference in the Middle East about Israel and shit.
You can continue to think what you want though. If it helps you to think that your country is just an innocent country attacked for its basic beliefs by a bunch of evil people who just hate you for everything you stand for then continue to do so.
Some people can't accept that things can be partly their fault. People like you probably think all of Americas problems stems from the fact that everyone else is an idiot and not themselves.
But, even 100 years ago the hate would've been localized. The world getting flatter has allowed them to 'express' their hatred.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
I say if we're gonna do it, ya gotta do it right. AKA 100,000 troops minimum, and go on a giant smash. Every enemy contact decimated. Attack their hideouts, bases, etc. Then have border patrol, very large volume, and anyone coming in is checked yadda yadda. If you don't do something right, why do it at all? Get the fuck out if your gonna pussyfoot around?
No, wrong. We were doing it right the first time. We sent in SF troops, had them team up with the locals and gave them air support. We took control of the entire country with about 1,000 troops on the ground. Sending in more troops just makes the local government dependent on our support. What happens when we pull back that support? They won't be able to handle it.mcjagdflieger wrote:
I say if we're gonna do it, ya gotta do it right. AKA 100,000 troops minimum, and go on a giant smash. Every enemy contact decimated. Attack their hideouts, bases, etc. Then have border patrol, very large volume, and anyone coming in is checked yadda yadda. If you don't do something right, why do it at all? Get the fuck out if your gonna pussyfoot around?
Best to train up their troops, slap them on the ass and send them out to do the fighting. It's THEIR country, not ours.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Ok, but do you think they're capable of governing themselves? I sure as shit don't. Theres no reason why we should be in another country for this long, wasting our resources helping them. What are they gonna do, start an industrial revolution there? It came, and went right past them. We need to move on. Not pick up for the slackers.
Umm, they have to be capable of governing themselves. It won't be in a way that is 'American' but they'll get it done in their own way if we get out of the way. Sending in more troops is the last thing we should be doing.mcjagdflieger wrote:
Ok, but do you think they're capable of governing themselves? I sure as shit don't. Theres no reason why we should be in another country for this long, wasting our resources helping them. What are they gonna do, start an industrial revolution there? It came, and went right past them. We need to move on. Not pick up for the slackers.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Ok then lets pull out and deal with the fallout afterward then?mcjagdflieger wrote:
Ok, but do you think they're capable of governing themselves? I sure as shit don't. Theres no reason why we should be in another country for this long, wasting our resources helping them. What are they gonna do, start an industrial revolution there? It came, and went right past them. We need to move on. Not pick up for the slackers.
Its either we go there to win the war and rebuild that country or get the fuck out.
Politicians need to stop running our wars. Our soldiers are excellent, and our commanders are brilliant, and our politicians fuck the whole thing up, it's sad to watch our military men and women put up with this shit.
I disagree with our commanders being brilliant. McChrystal is proving himself to be a Pentagon desk jockey who got thrust into a job he can't handle. Unimaginative as fuck.S.Lythberg wrote:
Politicians need to stop running our wars. Our soldiers are excellent, and our commanders are brilliant, and our politicians fuck the whole thing up, it's sad to watch our military men and women put up with this shit.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Yep...looks like George W. Bush did it right when he "listened to the generals on the ground," with respect to Iraq.
The top brass are politicians, our guys on the ground can't be beat.JohnG@lt wrote:
I disagree with our commanders being brilliant. McChrystal is proving himself to be a Pentagon desk jockey who got thrust into a job he can't handle. Unimaginative as fuck.S.Lythberg wrote:
Politicians need to stop running our wars. Our soldiers are excellent, and our commanders are brilliant, and our politicians fuck the whole thing up, it's sad to watch our military men and women put up with this shit.
Absolutely correct on both counts. The main problem facing our military is leadership still dreaming of set piece battles on the plains of Europe vs the Russians. They can't fathom a guerilla war and they despise our special ops troops. Put a spec warrior in charge of this war and we'd be able to leave within three years with a stable government in charge. Trust me.S.Lythberg wrote:
The top brass are politicians, our guys on the ground can't be beat.JohnG@lt wrote:
I disagree with our commanders being brilliant. McChrystal is proving himself to be a Pentagon desk jockey who got thrust into a job he can't handle. Unimaginative as fuck.S.Lythberg wrote:
Politicians need to stop running our wars. Our soldiers are excellent, and our commanders are brilliant, and our politicians fuck the whole thing up, it's sad to watch our military men and women put up with this shit.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
call me old fashioned, but i dont give a rats ass about the fallout, as long as they dont throw rocks our way. They can fight it out amongst themselves. im pretty much an asshole, i know, but i really dont care. And i REALLY dont want to pay off the taliban, but fuck it, since so much money is being given out left and right, we might aswell allocate some of our recently printed cash to them, hey instead of healthcare for americans it can be healthcare for afghanis.Harmor wrote:
Ok then lets pull out and deal with the fallout afterward then?mcjagdflieger wrote:
Ok, but do you think they're capable of governing themselves? I sure as shit don't. Theres no reason why we should be in another country for this long, wasting our resources helping them. What are they gonna do, start an industrial revolution there? It came, and went right past them. We need to move on. Not pick up for the slackers.
Its either we go there to win the war and rebuild that country or get the fuck out.
Article (of course i cant find it) says it would only cost a few hundred million to pay em off.
Sure are a lot of armchair generals in this thread.
Makes me sad that I beat marine to saying that.
edit:
I'm on a shitty netbook keyboard that doesn't warrant a full response to all of the nearly laughable statements in this thread, but to all of you saying "we lost the war now that we're only holding the cities" how do you know that?
So far as I understand the tactic we are pulling main forces back to the cities and leaving spec-ops to do their job out in the country. The spec ops do what the do best, and the major forces do what they do best in holding key points around the country and protecting the large civilian centers. We have been using special forces to win/buy the support of local militias from before the beginning, as early as early December 2001.
It is supremely annoying when people with zero macro tactical/logistical experience bitch about our public tactics learned via the equally tactically incompetent media.
Makes me sad that I beat marine to saying that.
edit:
I'm on a shitty netbook keyboard that doesn't warrant a full response to all of the nearly laughable statements in this thread, but to all of you saying "we lost the war now that we're only holding the cities" how do you know that?
So far as I understand the tactic we are pulling main forces back to the cities and leaving spec-ops to do their job out in the country. The spec ops do what the do best, and the major forces do what they do best in holding key points around the country and protecting the large civilian centers. We have been using special forces to win/buy the support of local militias from before the beginning, as early as early December 2001.
It is supremely annoying when people with zero macro tactical/logistical experience bitch about our public tactics learned via the equally tactically incompetent media.