BF2S Forums religions of violence

lowing wrote:

"If the West wants to have peace, then they have to accept Islamic rule."

Abu Bakar Bashir



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakar_Bashir

Beduin wrote:

lowing wrote:

Try addressing the material provided

no u lowing

Spark wrote:

lowing wrote:

"If the West wants to have peace, then they have to accept Islamic rule."

Abu Bakar Bashir



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakar_Bashir

A guy who was promptly prosecuted by the Indonesian justice system for promoting terrorism.

Beduin wrote:

lowing wrote:

Beduin wrote:

no u lowing

Yet again, material has been posted (several times), other than posting your opinion, refute the material.

My opinion?
Didn't you want to ask a muslim something?

lowing wrote:

Really Beduin, if you are going to continually tap dance around the links posted instead of addressing them I wish you would just move along.

THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM
HIDDEN & MANIFEST
ZAKARIA BOTROS
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Introduction
After the recent terrorist attack on America’s World Trade Center and Pentagon, there has been a very clear debate in the international media regarding the nature of Islam. We have seen the media change from the one extreme of being explicitly anti-Islamic, to the other, for the sake of presenting a political and human balance, of being pro-Moslem.
Christianity very clearly teaches us to love all of our fellow humans- even our enemies- but it by no means tells us to become blind to reality and the truth, or to be mislead by misinformation.
To make a fair assessment regarding any issue, one must be aware of all sides of the matter at hand, and for this reason; this study will demonstrate a certain side of Islam, which has not been precisely portrayed by any part of the popular media. The facts here will be based on textual reality from a recognised interpretation of the Quran [The meaning of THE HOLY QURAN by Abdullah Yusuf Ali1992]- note that the word ‘interpretation’ and not ‘translation’ is used because Islam prohibits the literal translation of its ‘holy book’- for this reason, the Arabic text of the Quranic verses has also been included, so that there is no possible accusation of misinterpretation.

THE TWO FACES OF ISLAM

In the aftermath of the September 11 attacks, many Muslims (and non-Muslims driven by political ends) worldwide have attempted to present Islam as a religion of peace and love, wanting to distance it from those shameful and brutal occurrences… they say that there is no violence in the essence of Islam.
It is obvious however that the perpetrators of these acts base their dependence on violence on clear and indisputable verses of the Quran, represented clearly in a statement by Osama Bin Laden on the CNN network. Based on this premise, Bin Laden, the Taliban and the Philippines Muslim group Abu Saiaf, among others, have openly declared war against the United States of America in the name of Islam, using quotations from the Quran such as:
‘And those of the people of the Book (Jews & Christians) who aided them (the unbelievers), Allah (God) did take them down from their strongholds. And cast terror into their hearts, so that some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods’ (Surah Al Ahzab 33:26 and 27)
(( وأنزل الذين ظاهروهم (إي الذين آفروا) من أهل الكتاب من صياصيهم (حصونهم) سورة الأحزاب آيات 26 و 27
وقذف في قلوبهم الرعب فريقا تقتلون وتأسرون فريقا. وأورثكم أرضهم وديارهم وأموالهم وأرضا لم تطأها وآان الله
على آل شيء قديرا]
Many are then confused; is Islam is a religion of violence, or one of peace?
When we actually study the book of Islam, the Quran, we discover that Islam has two faces. Each of these face represents a certain stage of Mohammed’s character: one in Mecca, and the other in Medina.

THE FIRST FACE OF ISLAM

Mohammed’s character in Mecca
In Mecca, where Mohammed started his new religion in the year 610 A.D, he was not yet strong. To be accepted by all people, he presented a peaceful and loving picture of Islam, avoiding any mention of violence, and here are some quotations from the Quran about that first stage:
1. Mohammed was told to be patient with his opponents in Surah Al Muzzammil (73:10) ‘And have patience with what they say, and leave them with noble (dignity)’
+(10 : "واصبر على ما يقولون واهجرهم هجرا جميلا" سورة المزمل ( 73
2. Mohammed was told not to impose Islam by force in Surah Al baqarah (2: 256) ‘Let there
be no compulsion in religion’
+ 256 ) "لا إآراه في الدين" : سورة البقرة ( 2
3. Mohammed was told to speak pleasantly to ‘people of the Book’ (Christians and Jews) in Surah Al Ankabut (29:45) ‘And dispute ye not with the people of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation) … but say: we believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and that which came down to you; Our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)’
+ 46 ) "ولا تجادلوا أهل الكتاب إلا بالتي هي أحسن ... وقولوا آمنا بالذي أنزل إلينا وأنزل إليكم وإلهنا : سورة العنكبوت ( 29
وإلهكم واحد ونحن له مسلمون"

THE SECOND FACE OF ISLAM

Mohammed’s character in Medina
After Mohammed moved to Medina in the year 622 AD and his followers grew in strength and number, he became a relentless warrior, intent on spreading his religion by the sword, and this is the message that now lives on. Here is some evidence from Quran of this stage:
1. He claimed that God told him to kill his opponents in Surah Al baqarah (2:191) ‘And slay them wherever ye catch them …’
"... (191 ) "واقتلوهم حيث ثقفتموهم (وجدتموهم : + سورة البقرة ( 2
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “This passage is illustrated by the events that happened at Hudaybiyyah [a battle] in the six year of the Hijrah [exodus of Mohammed from Mecca to Medina]. The Muslims were by this time a strong and influential community”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
2. He claimed that God told him to kill whoever rejects Islam in Surah Al Baqara (2:193)
‘And fight them on until there is no tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in
Alla …’
"... لله 193 ) "وقاتلوهم حتى لا تكون فتنة ويكون الدين : + سورة البقرة ( 2
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “Islam will not acquiesce in wrong doing, and its men will hold their lives cheap in defence of honour,and the religion which they hold sacred. They believe in courage, obedience… and a constant striving by all means in their power… They will not flinch from war if their houner,demands it and a righteous Imam commands it” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
3. He claimed that God told him to fight the ‘people of the Book’ (Christians & Jews) in Surah
Al Tawba (2:29) ‘Fight those who believe not in Alla and the Last Day … nor acknowledge
the religion of truth (Islam) from among the People of the Book until they pay the Jizyah (tax)
with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued …’
(29 :2) قاتلوا الذين لا يؤمنون بالله واليوم الآخر ... ولا يدينون دين الحق من الذين أوتوا الكتاب (أي “ + سورة التوبة
”... النصارى واليهود) حتى يعطوا الجزية وهم صاغرون
Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “A straight fight in the cause of right; go forth bravely to strive and struggle, and prove yourselves worthy of Alla”
(The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.446).
4- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 12) “… Fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith [infidel] …”
"12 ) "... فقاتلوا أئمة الكفر إنهم لا أيمان لهم لعلهم ينتهون : (سورة التوبة 9
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”The catalogue of their sins being set out, it is cleare that they were aggressors in the worst possible ways; and war became inevitable”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.440).
5- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 14) “Fight them and Alla will punish them by your hands, cover them
with shame, help you to victory over them, Heal the breasts of Believers”
"نينمؤم 14 ) "قاتلوهم يعذبهم الله بأيديكم ويخزهم وينصرآم عليهم ويشف صدور قوم : (سورة التوبة 9
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”When Alla’s Law is stablished, the fire of indignation is quelled, and the true Peace of Islam is attained” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.441).
6- (Surah Al Tawbah 9: 123) “O ye who believe fight the unbelievers who gird you about. And
let them find firmness in you and know that Alla is with those who fear Him”
عم 123 ) "يا أيها الذين آمنوا قاتلوا الذين يلونكم من الكفار وليجدوا فيكم غلظة واعلموا أن الله : (سورة التوبة 9
المتقين"
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying,”When conflict becomes inevitable, the first thing is to clear our surroundings of all evil…To evil we must put up a stout and stif resistance” (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.475).
7- (Sura Al Anfal 8: 65) “O Prophet rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst
you, patint and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred they will vanquish a
thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding”
نكي 65 ) "يا أيها النبي حرض المؤمنين على القتال إن يكن منكم عشرون صابرون يغلبوا مائتين وإن : (سورة الأنفال 8
منكم مائة يغلبوا ألفا من الذين آفروا بأنهم قوم لا يفقهون"
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “In a fight … the men of faith do not daunt. Whether they personally win or die, their cause prevails. They are sure to win: because (1) they have divine aid, and (2) even humanly speaking, those who take up arms against truth are fools, and their seeming power is but a broken reed”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.431).
He adds,” Jihad (Holy war) is fought under strict conditions laid down by Islam, and glory for the cause of Alla”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.431).
8- (Surah Al Baqara 2: 216) “Fighting is prescribed upon you …”
216 ) "آتب عليكم القتال : "... (سورة البقرة 2
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “To fight in the cause of truth is one of the highest forms of charity”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.86).
Notice: Fight is a form of charity, in Islam!!!
9- (Surah Al Anfal 8:60) “Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power,
including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts) of the enemies of Alla and your
enemies …”
"... 60 ) "وأعدوا لهم ما استطعتم من قوة ومن رباط الخيل ترهبون به عدو الله وعدوآم : (سورة الأنفال 8
* Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on this verse saying, “In every fight arm yourself with the best weapons and the best arms against your enemy, so as to instil wholesome respect into him for you and the cause you stand for”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P.429).

THE SAME IDEOLOGY & STRATEGY

The problem with the assessment of Islam in the West, which is predominantly Christian, is that it is looked upon as another faith- like Christianity- and thus it is the right of each
individual to worship as he or she pleases. This is right, but the problem is that Islam is not like Christianity.
Christianity is a system of faith and morality which can exist within any national or state system, but Islam however has its own political and judicial system embodied in the Shareia (law) which governs every Muslim. For this reason, Islamic fundamentalists who live even in a moderate Islamic state with a secular political system, will attempt to overthrow this system because it does not sufficiently embody the principal of Islam being ‘Religion and State’.

This study by no means attempts to present a picture of all Muslims being bad, because this is not at all true- there are many moderate Muslims who are good and constructive members of society, but even these are looked upon by fundamentalists as kaffara (apostate) because they do not follow the Quran faithfully, and thus are also worthy of the same end as any non-Muslim, that is, death.
Thus, the problem is one of Islam, and not of Muslims. We know that in any religion, or any faith, it is the role of each believer to carry out the teachings of that faith, and thus, these teaching become the rules by which he or she lives- any ‘faithful’ Muslim must follow the Quran.
Islam everywhere in the world especially in the West follow the same ideology and strategy of Islam. They start with the first stage of weakness to pretend that they are peaceful and loving. They take advantage of Democracy and Human Rights in the West to spread their faith.
After they become strong they do not hesitate to kill people and destroy the civilization of the West, which –according to their belief– is against the doctrines of Islam, as we have seen in bombing the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.
Testimonies Of
Famous Muslims
1- Mohammed Hassanein Heikal’ a well-known Egyptian Muslim author refers to this fact in his famous book “Autumn Furor”. He said,
“The element of Jihad (holy war) emerged in the ideology of Abul Alaa Almaudoody (a fanatical Muslim in Egypt). He went on to differentiate between two separate stages, a Muslim community goes through:
The stage of weakness – In it a Muslim community is unable to take charge of its own destiny. In this case – according to his thinking – they must withdraw for the purpose of preparing themselves to be capable of executing the second stage.
The second stage is the Jihad (holy war) stage, and it will come when the Islamic Community has completed its preparation and is ready to come out of its isolation to take charge, through Jihad
In this, Abul Alaa Almaudoody was making a comparison between the two stages of weakness and Jihad on the one hand, and on the other hand, Mohammad’s struggle in Mecca, then in Medina.”[Following the same strategy of Mohammed].
2- Hassan Abdulla Al Torabi, the most fanatic Sudanese Muslim leader, was accustomed to say openly,
“We pretend to be weak, till we become strong”
3- Imam Abdullah Yusuf Ali, comments on Surah Al baqarah (2:191) ‘And slay them wherever ye catch them…’
“This passage is illustrated by the events that happened at Hudaybiyyah [a battle] in the six year of the Hijrah [exodus of Mohammed from Mecca to Medina]. The Muslims were by this time a strong and influential community”. (The Meaning of the Holy Quran P77).
This is the reality of Islam and his two faces. How much we should be aware of what is happening around us.

lowing wrote:

This is "reality" to him

Question:
Does the koran teach to kill, tax or convert infidels as a general principle? Also does the Koran teach that in the last day trees will cry out there is a Jew behind me come and kill him?
Answer:

In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

Dear Brother,

The short answer is no.

The Qur'an does not teach that "infidels" should be killed, taxed, or converted as a matter of principle.

The answer to your next question is also no. Actually, this is a saying, or hadith, attributed to the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace. Scholars differ over the interpretation of this saying. However, the best method of understanding this hadith is to look at the biography of the Prophet, peace be upon him. When he established the first Islamic state in Medina, he regarded the Jews as allies, and concluded a treaty with them. Only when they violated the treaty and sided with the Muslims' enemies did the Prophet change his policy toward them. It is possible that this hadith is a reflection of the tensions between Muslims and Jews in Medina. However, bear in mind that Islam accords special status to both Christians and Jews, as we will see later.

First, let's look at where these statements come from. These are common stereotypes about Islam. People who don't understand the religion like to toss around the accusation that the Qur'an teaches violence and anti-semitism. Unfortunately, a lot of people who buy into these misconceptions have distinctly Islamophobic agendas that preclude them from having any positive views of Islam.

Islam is a fourteen-hundred years old way of life. One simply can't take the scripture of Islam, which is the Qur'an (also spelled Koran), and make sweeping generalizations about the religion, particularly when one lacks the qualifications to interpret the Qur'an.

The Qur'an makes reference to different groups of non-Muslims. First, the Qur'an recognizes the natural diversity of humanity, "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)." (Qu'ran, 49:13)

There is also the recognition that human beings are religiously and ethnically diverse, "For, had God so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community; however, He lets go astray him that wills [to go astray], and guides aright him that wills [to be guided]; and you will surely be called to account for all that you ever did!" (Qur'an, 16:93)

What then does the Qur'an say about "infidels?" First, what does the term infidel mean? It is not a Qur'anic term. It is a term that Christians have historically applied to non-Christians, particularly Muslims. Christian doctrine simply did not recognize the legitimacy of Islam. Hence, Muslims were "infidels," and usually placed in the same category as "pagans" and "savages."

The Qur'an speaks of "kuffar," or those who disbelieve, or cover up the truth, or deny the truth of God and His messengers. However, it is incorrect to translate "kafir" as infidel. The Qur'an also does not label all non-Muslims as kuffar, or unbelievers.

The Qur'an talks about a group of non-Muslims called "Ahl al-Kitab," or People of Scripture. These are people who have received divine revelation, particularly Christians and Jews. Therefore, the Qur'an automatically recognizes previous Abrahamic faiths and accords special status to the adherents of Christianity and Judaism. What is ironic is that Christian and Jewish doctrine makes no provision for the recognition of Islam; however, Islam recognizes both Christianity and Judaism as divinely-revealed religions. But it is Islam that is always accused of intolerance!

The Qur'an is the culmination of the Abrahamic tradition. Thus, Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the completion of God's message to humanity. Muslims also believe that the Qur'an has been preserved in its original form since its revelation over 1400 years ago. Unlike the Bible, the Qur'an has not been altered by human hands. For Muslims, this is a miracle and proof of God's concern for humanity.

Let's look at one of the most misunderstood passages of the Qur'an:

"And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out..."

Most people usually only quote the first part.

Here's the entire passage:

"And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors." (Qur'an, 2:190-192)

Let's look at the interpretation of the above verses. First, examine the historical context. These verses were revealed at a time when Islam was under siege, when the small Muslim community was fighting for its very existence against powerful polytheists. The biography of the Prophet Muhammad, Allah bless him and give him peace, makes it very clear that the Prophet preached peacefully for the first 13 years of his mission. He left Mecca for Medina to make a new start. Even when the polytheists in Mecca were persecuting Muslims and looting their houses, the Prophet hesitated to fight. He only took up arms when God gave him permission:

"Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them." (Qur'an, 22:39)

The first battles the Muslims waged were in self-defense. They were disciplined and adhered to strict codes of conduct. Noncombatants, including women and children were not targeted. Furthermore, the Muslims avoided destroying property, livestock, and trees.

Even as Islam spread beyond the borders of Arabia into the Byzantine and Sassanid Empires (Syria and Persia), non-Muslims were accorded certain rights. If they accepted the authority of the new Islamic government, then treaties were concluded and the non-Muslims paid a special tax, called a jizya. The options were not convert, die, or pay the tax. Instead, non-Muslims were allowed to practice their own religions and maintain their own institutions. In lieu of converting to Islam, they paid the jizya, or poll tax. This tax exempted them from military service and gave them special status under the Islamic system. Many non-Muslims actually welcomed Muslim rule, knowing that they had certain rights under the new system. In fact, some Muslim rulers actually discouraged conversion, because they preferred collecting the poll tax. This tribute system was very compatible with the political economy of the premodern world.

Islam could not have had the huge appeal it did if Muslims' first response was to kill "infidels." Within one hundred years of the Prophet's death, Islam had spread from Spain in the West to China in the East. Islam's initial spread was through political-military means. However, Muslim rulers usually insured that local populations could practice their own religions and have their own institutions, provided they accepted Muslim rule and paid their taxes. Muslims ruled places like the Indian subcontinent for centuries and did not forcibly convert the population. In fact, India remained majority Hindu under Muslim rule.

The Ottomans created a multi-confessional, multi-ethnic millet system where Muslims, Christian, and Jews lived together in peace. In fact, the Ottomans' elite military corp, the Janissaries, were predominantly Christian.

Islam's tolerance, and indeed welcoming, of other religions flourished in places like Spain, where Muslims cultivated an atmosphere of learning, scholarship, and art. Christians flocked to study in the universities of Muslim Spain.

Consider this:

In the Catholic Reconquista of Muslim Spain, Muslim and Spanish Jews were generally ordered to convert to Christianity, be expelled, or die.

When the Spanish Jews fled the Catholics, where did they go? They sought refuge with the Ottoman Muslims in Istanbul. This was in the 15th century. To this day, there is a Jewish quarter in Istanbul where the people still speak Spanish, descendants of the Spanish Jews who found a home with the Muslims!

Let's go back to the Qur'an:

The Qur'an says, "Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah (God) and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Qur'an, 2:62)

And, the Qur'an also states, "Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things." (Qur'an, 2:256)

Today, Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world. Today, as yesterday, and in centuries past, Islam speaks to people's hearts with the beautiful message that There is no god but God and Muhammad is His Messenger.

This is a message that has inspired countless believers from all walks of life, a religion followed by over 1.5 billion human beings the world over, including my own family, who were raised as Christians, but discovered the beauty of Islam over three decades ago.

May Allah guide us all.

And Allah knows best.

MMVIII © SunniPath.
All rights reserved

lowing wrote:

link please..

lowing wrote:

"The first battles the Muslims waged were in self-defense. They were disciplined and adhered to strict codes of conduct. Noncombatants, including women and children were not targeted. Furthermore, the Muslims avoided destroying property, livestock, and trees."
The first battles?? What about the later battles? Also just how many battles are we talking about here?

lowing wrote:

Then there is this   "Islam's initial spread was through political-military means. However, Muslim rulers usually insured that local populations could practice their own religions and have their own institutions, provided they accepted Muslim rule and paid their taxes."

How very tolerant and peaceful of Islam.

Last edited by Beduin (2009-09-06 13:33:44)

lowing wrote:

thank you, I will read up some more

lowing wrote:

I dunno...
Again I dunno...

lowing wrote:

How does a non-viloent Muhammad spread Islam poltically and militarily without violence? How does a tolerant Muhammad subjegate non-Muslims through taxes and an iron fist while being tolerant at the same time? It is your link you explain it. I can't

Beduin wrote:

lowing wrote:

How does a non-viloent Muhammad spread Islam poltically and militarily without violence? How does a tolerant Muhammad subjegate non-Muslims through taxes and an iron fist while being tolerant at the same time? It is your link you explain it. I can't

lowing, lets be honest here... You don't care. You don't want to accept anything but what fits your ideas.
You can never be specific cause all you have is random facts that you fix together to fit your design.
From my point of view, you have nothing.You have no knowledge of history, no knowledge of religions and no knowledge about culture.

I on the other hand have the Quran, the teaching of Islam and history.

Read some more and come back when you can be more specific. It helps to do some research to gain background knowledge.

Last edited by lowing (2009-09-06 16:16:22)

lowing wrote:

Don't tell me I don't care, I have spent 23 pages with you to try and get answers from you regarding your own links. I use your own sources against you!! What do you mean I have nothing? YOU are the one that addresses nothing. You choose to try and dismiss an argument because you can not dispute it. I address absolutely everything you post, and I ask questions regarding them. You do not answer, instead, you choose to dismiss and declare yourself right..It does not work that way.

So again address the links provided, address the questiond asked....POST something that does not refute your own claim.

Just stop squirming and stand toe to toe and address the questiond asked and the links provided. Dismissal is not a debate tactic regardless of it being the main practice in this forum.