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2009-08-22 04:54:15
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6945|USA

Burwhale wrote:

Lowing , are you saying that there should be No crimes based on race? Reading the link, I dont think it stated how the punishment was doled out. Was it 'X' years for the violence, plus 'Y' years for the race crime aspect, or was it X years for the violence but made larger due to because it was racial violence. I am not sure I am being clear here ( sorry) . What I am getting at is that if there was only one factor taken into account for punishment ( violence) then that is different to there being 2 factors taken into account  ( ie violent crime plus race crime). I think option 1 here in this case would be unsatisfactory, while option 2 would be fine.
There should be no crimes period. There are crimes based on race. I said there should be no punishment based on race.

Hate crime laws are in effect, it knocks up the crime a notchin severity. I would hate that someone killing a person based on racial motives, is somehow worse than someone killing my sons for their starter jacket and deserves special attention. Fuck that
2009-08-22 04:56:07
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6945|USA

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Morpheus wrote:

lowing wrote:

Nope, I want ALL murderers put to death, equally...
...Including people who shoot to kill in self defense, of themselves, home and/or property?
is that murder?
Nope
2009-08-22 04:57:27
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6945|USA

Stubbee wrote:

Pug wrote:

Stubbee wrote:


Ok then. All murderers eh?

I guess that would include the prosecutors, judges, law enforcement, prison officials and politicians who HAVE MURDERED INNOCENT people convicted of a capital crime and executed?

Or are you going to squirm your way to a lowing-is-right-at-all-costs answer? There are a lot of people included in the above list including your former president.
Legal Definition of Murder: The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse.

If the prosecutors, judges & law enforcement, etc are guilty, then they must conform to the above rule.
Not talking about the legal definition but lowing's definition.
Is my definition different? When I speak of murder I was hoping it would be assumed that we all knew what murder was.
2009-08-22 04:58:54
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6945|USA

Morpheus wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Morpheus wrote:


...Including people who shoot to kill in self defense, of themselves, home and/or property?
is that murder?
They're still dead, aren't they?

I thought circumstances didn't matter... only outcome
I said circumstances determines guilt or innocence, not punishment. Actually that is the third time I said it.
2009-08-22 05:05:12
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6945|USA

Morpheus wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Morpheus wrote:


They're still dead, aren't they?

I thought circumstances didn't matter... only outcome
American History X style yo.

If self defense in any circumstance, the man should go off free, I don't care if he's racist or what. If some armed men tried to rob your shit, you kill them, you're defending life, liberty and persuit of hapiness.
Personally, I think self defense is a good defense, because I know I would use it responsibly... However, there are many who would exploit/misinterpret/abuse/take it to the extreme.... google "texas"


I was just posing the question to lowing because sometimes it seems he make general blanket statements without actually thinking about what he wants to say.
Nope, I know exactly what I am saying and what I want to say. I am consistent in my postings because I speak the truth as I see it, do not sugar coat my opinions with bullshit PC, in order to spare someones feelings. If truth is to be the destination, then you can not travel the path paved with PC.
2009-08-22 14:54:36
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7001|67.222.138.85
l2dictionary
2009-08-22 18:28:30
Mitch
16 more years
+877|6819|South Florida

Poseidon wrote:

lowing wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

So you think when people vandalize synagogues with nazi symbols they should only get charged with vandalism and trespassing?
Yup.

What else would you want them charged with?
Committing a crime specifically because of who they are? aka...a hate crime

It's one thing to just attack someone. It's another thing to do it because they're black, white, latino, jewish, muslim, old, young, female, male, overweight, underweight, etc.

Obviously they can't tell if an attack is motivated by hate by a person's race/religion/etc unless they have proof. There luckily isn't thought police, so they need proof that there was. They're not going to charge 2 black guys who beat up a white guy with a hate crime just because they happened to be black and the victim happened to be white, they need proof.
But the flaw in this system is a black person can never be racist.
15 more years! 15 more years!
2009-08-22 18:33:04
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6794|so randum

Mitch wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

lowing wrote:


Yup.

What else would you want them charged with?
Committing a crime specifically because of who they are? aka...a hate crime

It's one thing to just attack someone. It's another thing to do it because they're black, white, latino, jewish, muslim, old, young, female, male, overweight, underweight, etc.

Obviously they can't tell if an attack is motivated by hate by a person's race/religion/etc unless they have proof. There luckily isn't thought police, so they need proof that there was. They're not going to charge 2 black guys who beat up a white guy with a hate crime just because they happened to be black and the victim happened to be white, they need proof.
But the flaw in this system is a black person can never be racist.
erm black panthers?
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
2009-08-22 19:22:19
-Whiteroom-
Pineapplewhat
+572|6953|BC, Canada

lowing wrote:

Nic wrote:

lowing wrote:


it is my opinion that if you investigate a murder, the race of the victim or the murderer should not be relevant.
What if race is the motive, then it has to be relevant for you to have a case.
Noy a problem, he dies just the same if found guilty, or do you suggest they kill him twice because race was the motive?
No I was just asking because you said that if you investigate a murder, leading me to believe you thought it should not be considered , not the punishment for it. I agree murderers should be put to death after a certain time period.
2009-08-22 20:50:31
DrunkFace
Germans did 911
+427|6975|Disaster Free Zone

lowing wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:

lowing wrote:


It is to establish guilt or innocence, NOT punishment. If circumstances warrants man-slaughter, and should punish differently since that is not murder. But if circumstances finds you a murderer, do you really want a bar gragh that leads to a certain punishment based on race?
So you agree that motive and circumstance change the crime?
And you also say that different crimes deserve different punishments.

So by simple logic if I change a motive to say, racial hate, then I change the crime and therefore change the punishment.

And as we don't live in your perfect world where all murders are punished with death. Then by changing the motive to a 'hate' crime we can theoretically change the punishment too (read: increase it).
Re-read, I didn't say motive or circumstance changes the crime, I said it should help in establishing guilt or innocence. If found guilty the punishment should be the same. So my logic makes sense. What does not make sense is your willingness to assign punishment based on race.
Umm, same out come: you kill someone. But your motives and circumstances can change your guilt from murder to manslaughter, and therefore the punishment. You may not of said it in so many words but it is pretty strongly implied with "If circumstances warrants man-slaughter, and should punish differently since that is not murder."

So why can't you use motive and circumstance to change ones guilt from murder to a hate crime murder and change the punishment. The outcome is still the same (you killed someone), but your motives and circumstances in which that event took place will change the crime you committed and therefore your punishment.

Mitch wrote:

But the flaw in this system is a black person can never be racist.
Why?

They may not have been 'black' but they are an ethnic minority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes
The Sydney gang rapes were a series of gang rape attacks committed by a group of up to fourteen Lebanese Australian men led by Bilal Skaf against predominantly Anglo-Celtic Australian teenage girls, as young as 14, in Sydney Australia in 2000. The crimes — described as ethnically motivated hate crimes by officials and commentators — saw blanket media coverage, the passing of new laws, and the sentencing of "more than 240 years" of jail time to the nine men convicted of the gang rapes.
2009-08-22 21:39:43
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6699|North Carolina


Well, considering that you can be sued for calling someone a whore on the internet, I suppose hate crimes are really just par for the course.
2009-08-22 22:07:14
bf2gammer
Member
+14|6515
I believe that when it comes to Murder, people should not be treated any differently because the murder was thought to be a hate crime. There should only be one type of punishment, death. You murder someone, you ARE a threat to society and therefore lack any reason to be a part of society. A black guy murdering a white guy because the white guy is white should not be punished any differently than if a robber murders a bank teller because she didnt give him the money.

The problem with our judicial system is, it is taking longer and longer to get any crimes punished. It takes years for someone to be executed, months for somebody to be convicted and sentenced. Murderers are getting parol when they shouldnt.

Why is it that somebody can murder and get 25 years with the chance of parole, and somebody convicted of a hate crime murder might get life without parole? Why should there be a lesser sentence in the first place? There shouldnt. IMO

Last edited by bf2gammer (2009-08-22 22:28:58)

2009-08-23 00:28:13
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6945|USA

DrunkFace wrote:

lowing wrote:

DrunkFace wrote:


So you agree that motive and circumstance change the crime?
And you also say that different crimes deserve different punishments.

So by simple logic if I change a motive to say, racial hate, then I change the crime and therefore change the punishment.

And as we don't live in your perfect world where all murders are punished with death. Then by changing the motive to a 'hate' crime we can theoretically change the punishment too (read: increase it).
Re-read, I didn't say motive or circumstance changes the crime, I said it should help in establishing guilt or innocence. If found guilty the punishment should be the same. So my logic makes sense. What does not make sense is your willingness to assign punishment based on race.
Umm, same out come: you kill someone. But your motives and circumstances can change your guilt from murder to manslaughter, and therefore the punishment. You may not of said it in so many words but it is pretty strongly implied with "If circumstances warrants man-slaughter, and should punish differently since that is not murder."

So why can't you use motive and circumstance to change ones guilt from murder to a hate crime murder and change the punishment. The outcome is still the same (you killed someone), but your motives and circumstances in which that event took place will change the crime you committed and therefore your punishment.

Mitch wrote:

But the flaw in this system is a black person can never be racist.
Why?

They may not have been 'black' but they are an ethnic minority.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_gang_rapes
The Sydney gang rapes were a series of gang rape attacks committed by a group of up to fourteen Lebanese Australian men led by Bilal Skaf against predominantly Anglo-Celtic Australian teenage girls, as young as 14, in Sydney Australia in 2000. The crimes — described as ethnically motivated hate crimes by officials and commentators — saw blanket media coverage, the passing of new laws, and the sentencing of "more than 240 years" of jail time to the nine men convicted of the gang rapes.
because murder is the same damn thing as a hate crime murder, you really wanna have a race based punishment system, and you guys think I am a racist?
2009-08-23 02:14:53
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|6969|Belgium

lowing wrote:

Is my definition different? When I speak of murder I was hoping it would be assumed that we all knew what murder was.
You know the difference between murder 1 and 2 degree, and (voluntary or un-) manslaughter? Should they all be punished the same, death?

Edit: FM gave you a hint...

Last edited by Pierre (2009-08-23 02:16:36)

2009-08-23 06:03:29
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6945|USA

Pierre wrote:

lowing wrote:

Is my definition different? When I speak of murder I was hoping it would be assumed that we all knew what murder was.
You know the difference between murder 1 and 2 degree, and (voluntary or un-) manslaughter? Should they all be punished the same, death?

Edit: FM gave you a hint...
yup, and yet race still does not play a part in murders 1 OR 2, voluntary or un-voluntary manslaughter ( and race being considered for punishment is what we are talking about not)

for punishment I couldn't care less if a murder was pre-meditated or done so while robbing a fuckin' bank, the murderer should be executed if found guilty. RACE has got nothing to do with it.
2009-08-23 07:21:56
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|6881|sWEEDen
Punishment should be the same for all races ofcourse, the reasons for said murders however is important to understand and learn from soo we can try to avoid them in the future by further educate ourselves and increase the understanding and respect for all mankind...
2009-08-23 09:46:23
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6945|USA

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Punishment should be the same for all races ofcourse, the reasons for said murders however is important to understand and learn from soo we can try to avoid them in the future by further educate ourselves and increase the understanding and respect for all mankind...
Where the fuck did you read that bullshit?
2009-08-23 09:56:59
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|6881|sWEEDen
Why would I have read it?

You don´t think understanding the human mind and criminals like this could help to prevent other murders and/or crimes apperntly, but hey what would I know right? My father worked as a judge (well, it´s called "nämdeman" and is kind of a constant jury here) in court and I´ve been to prison myself....hell I have no experience what so ever....of course it´s bullshit...
2009-08-23 09:59:15
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6699|North Carolina

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Why would I have read it?

You don´t think understanding the human mind and criminals like this could help to prevent other murders and/or crimes apperntly, but hey what would I know right? My father worked as a judge (well, it´s called "nämdeman" and is kind of a constant jury here) in court and I´ve been to prison myself....hell I have no experience what so ever....of course it´s bullshit...
I can sympathize with this idea, but I'd prefer if we were consistent about it.

In America, if a white guy attacks a black guy for racial reasons, it's a hate crime.  Yet, if a black guy attacks a white guy for racial reasons, I can't think of a single time that actually was considered a hate crime.
2009-08-23 10:09:49
[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi
Why walk when you can dance?
+77|6881|sWEEDen
Agree, it´s very much the same here when swedes and immigrants gets in trouble, the race card is an easy play, ofcourse many will play it.

What I was trying to say is that we should investigate crimes alot more to understand why they happen and try to prevent them. Education and understanding would decrease events like this.

It´s like the internet, every byte that we share helps us understand eachother...
2009-08-23 10:12:03
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6945|USA

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Why would I have read it?

You don´t think understanding the human mind and criminals like this could help to prevent other murders and/or crimes apperntly, but hey what would I know right? My father worked as a judge (well, it´s called "nämdeman" and is kind of a constant jury here) in court and I´ve been to prison myself....hell I have no experience what so ever....of course it´s bullshit...
So your dad is a judge and you are an ex-con, and this makes you an expert on murderous behavior? People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time, and you think understanding why it is necessary to punish based on race, is the key to the salvation of humanity. Yeah it is bullshit.
2009-08-23 10:19:28
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6945|USA

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Agree, it´s very much the same here when swedes and immigrants gets in trouble, the race card is an easy play, ofcourse many will play it.

What I was trying to say is that we should investigate crimes alot more to understand why they happen and try to prevent them. Education and understanding would decrease events like this.

It´s like the internet, every byte that we share helps us understand eachother...
and what does this have to do with punishing people based on their race?
2009-08-23 10:19:46
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6699|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Why would I have read it?

You don´t think understanding the human mind and criminals like this could help to prevent other murders and/or crimes apperntly, but hey what would I know right? My father worked as a judge (well, it´s called "nämdeman" and is kind of a constant jury here) in court and I´ve been to prison myself....hell I have no experience what so ever....of course it´s bullshit...
So your dad is a judge and you are an ex-con, and this makes you an expert on murderous behavior? People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time, and you think understanding why it is necessary to punish based on race, is the key to the salvation of humanity. Yeah it is bullshit.
He's saying that if we understand why someone is a racist, it might help prevent future acts of racism.  That's not bullshit at all.
2009-08-23 10:21:38
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6945|USA

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:

[F7F7]KiNG_KaDaFFHi wrote:

Why would I have read it?

You don´t think understanding the human mind and criminals like this could help to prevent other murders and/or crimes apperntly, but hey what would I know right? My father worked as a judge (well, it´s called "nämdeman" and is kind of a constant jury here) in court and I´ve been to prison myself....hell I have no experience what so ever....of course it´s bullshit...
So your dad is a judge and you are an ex-con, and this makes you an expert on murderous behavior? People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time, and you think understanding why it is necessary to punish based on race, is the key to the salvation of humanity. Yeah it is bullshit.
He's saying that if we understand why someone is a racist, it might help prevent future acts of racism.  That's not bullshit at all.
We do understand racism, we have fro a long time.

People do not want to venture outside their own realms of comfort and familiarity, and they don't want other bringing in theirs.

this has got nothing to do with punishing people based on race.
2009-08-23 10:25:06
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6699|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

lowing wrote:


So your dad is a judge and you are an ex-con, and this makes you an expert on murderous behavior? People have been murdering each other since the dawn of time, and you think understanding why it is necessary to punish based on race, is the key to the salvation of humanity. Yeah it is bullshit.
He's saying that if we understand why someone is a racist, it might help prevent future acts of racism.  That's not bullshit at all.
We do understand racism, we have fro a long time.

People do not want to venture outside their own realms of comfort and familiarity, and they don't want other bringing in theirs.

this has got nothing to do with punishing people based on race.
Lowing, you seem to be intentionally acting dense right now.

We might understand racism on an abstract, general level, but to say you already understand every personal perception that leads to racist acts is pretty arrogant.

The idea behind hate crimes is that a more severe punishment for those that commit racist acts should be a deterrent for future racist acts.  I don't personally believe that this actually works like that, but the idea is somewhat sound if effort is put forth to also understand what leads to these racist perceptions.

 

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