It's hard to get accurate information from China atm.
I like to think outside the box all the time, my job requires it. There are some boxes you are not allowed to operate outside of. He stepped outside his box and learned a lesson. Isn't it still self serving to think he has projects to finish and is trying to stay in office to accomplish them? If they are that important and need to get done, then the legislature would be hearing about it from the public, yes?Varegg wrote:
@LividBovine: I'm aware liberal thoughts can confuse a conservative ... thinking outside the box is often a good way to confirm and test your own believes ...
Varegg wrote:
about Roosevelt ... I thought that was law back then also, if it wasn't ... my bad ...
Ban away, you are wrong!Varegg wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong and I'll ban you!!!
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
When the primary benefactor is the person acting illegally intent because blatently obvious. In ignoring the established law he went outside of the constitution. He even went so far as to remove the people who were charged with enforcing the constitution. His attempted power grab was explicit and self-explanatory (imo).Varegg wrote:
If you ignore the precedent on a regular basis yes but I don't have the impression that is the case here ... and we don't know for sure he made that decission for self serving reasons only ... we asume he did and that may be correct but it also may be a wrong asumption ...Kmarion wrote:
Yes they do need to be rewritten from time to time. But if you are going to go out and ignore the precedent then you should consider the motive of a proposal that would only benefit the person who proposed it.. This is self serving. A neutral source, in this case the supreme court, is charged with making this decision.Varegg wrote:
I'm not ignoring it Kmar ... I'm trying as a true liberal to shed light on the issue from both sides ... so I see it as he could definately be in the wrong here but he could also be trying to change an ancient law that really is in the way of progress for the country of Honduras ...
Laws needs to be redone from time to time and in this case a public vote is close to being the only way to change it seeing as the laws are so clear that even speaking about is against the law ... this is without doubt an issue that goes beyond party politics and would not be an election issue, if it was an election issue the candidate bringing it up would clearly disqualify himself from the election ... stalemate!
Xbone Stormsurgezz
I don't disagree with you Kmar as pointed out several times in this thread already ... I only point out there could be other underlying issues as to why he did what he did beyond the obvious powergrabbing ...
@Livid ... I have already misused my ban quota this month so you'll have to wait until August
@Livid ... I have already misused my ban quota this month so you'll have to wait until August
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Of course there can always be underlying non apparent circumstances. I have not seen any evidence of it though. I make my judgment based on the information I have seen.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
And the information right now is that the "coup" leaders are shooting the public for showing support towards a popular politician ... the same public they obviously deemed unimportant enough to not hold a public vote, that's how I see it ... there was no riot before they ousted the president ...Kmarion wrote:
Of course there can always be underlying non apparent circumstances. I have not seen any evidence of it though. I make my judgment based on the information I have seen.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
It is not a public vote situation. Period. The legislature has to pass the amendment for 2 consecutive terms to change it. If they want to change the way the constitution is ammended, then they have to pass an amendment doing just that. If they want to take their demoracy serious then they need to follow the rules they have on changing their constitution. I don't see how it can be any clearer. The whole issue was how he was removed, they had no rule or precedent telling them how to do it.Varegg wrote:
And the information right now is that the "coup" leaders are shooting the public for showing support towards a popular politician ... the same public they obviously deemed unimportant enough to not hold a public vote, that's how I see it ...Kmarion wrote:
Of course there can always be underlying non apparent circumstances. I have not seen any evidence of it though. I make my judgment based on the information I have seen.
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
Only Siths deals in absolutes Livid ... how else can you change a constitution that clearly states you must step down if you as much as mention it in public?LividBovine wrote:
It is not a public vote situation. Period. The legislature has to pass the amendment for 2 consecutive terms to change it. If they want to change the way the constitution is ammended, then they have to pass an amendment doing just that. If they want to take their demoracy serious then they need to follow the rules they have on changing their constitution. I don't see how it can be any clearer. The whole issue was how he was removed, they had no rule or precedent telling them how to do it.Varegg wrote:
And the information right now is that the "coup" leaders are shooting the public for showing support towards a popular politician ... the same public they obviously deemed unimportant enough to not hold a public vote, that's how I see it ...Kmarion wrote:
Of course there can always be underlying non apparent circumstances. I have not seen any evidence of it though. I make my judgment based on the information I have seen.
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
Wait...the Chinese are rioting because of the situation in Honduras? Weird.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
moar lik MJ Jackson tbh12/f/taiwan wrote:
Muslims, Jews, and anything American are whats "hot."
and yes these are the millions of morons that make America look like a place filled with idiots.
Apathy is whats "hawt"
They should have booby trapped the Michael Jackson thing.
I understand the loss of a great artist has impact but that was celebrity worship taken to the extreme limits of tolerance.
I understand the loss of a great artist has impact but that was celebrity worship taken to the extreme limits of tolerance.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
What do you mean?Flecco wrote:
They should have booby trapped the Michael Jackson thing.
I understand the loss of a great artist has impact but that was celebrity worship taken to the extreme limits of tolerance.
Did something happen to Michael Jackson?!
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
I was a bit pissed the morning news here DID NOT HAVE ANYTHING ELSE ON. WHAT THE FUCK.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
WTF. I was looking for some discussion about the Xinjiang riot, and it's all about Zelaya...
No talk about Chinese Muslims rioting and killing innocent civilians? What sucks is that only this morning, did our State Department issue an alert about travel in the city of Urumqi. It took 5 days before our own government to take any real notice.
No talk about Chinese Muslims rioting and killing innocent civilians? What sucks is that only this morning, did our State Department issue an alert about travel in the city of Urumqi. It took 5 days before our own government to take any real notice.
The western MSM don't care about Chinese civilians being killed if the gov't didn't do it. Even less so if the gov't is actually doing the right thing in this case and calling for calm, with riot police on the streets instead of army units.Ilocano wrote:
WTF. I was looking for some discussion about the Xinjiang riot, and it's all about Zelaya...
No talk about Chinese Muslims rioting and killing innocent civilians? What sucks is that only this morning, did our State Department issue an alert about travel in the city of Urumqi. It took 5 days before our own government to take any real notice.
Get a picture of a policemen even touching a Uighur, and BAM. Like wolves circling a chicken's den.
I wouldn't go that far. The Uyghurs have killed plenty of innocent people, but this situation never would've become an issue if the Chinese government had handled things properly with regard to Uyghur settlements. Essentially, they've made the same mistakes with this group as they did with the Tibetans.maffiaw wrote:
The western MSM don't care about Chinese civilians being killed if the gov't didn't do it. Even less so if the gov't is actually doing the right thing in this case and calling for calm, with riot police on the streets instead of army units.Ilocano wrote:
WTF. I was looking for some discussion about the Xinjiang riot, and it's all about Zelaya...
No talk about Chinese Muslims rioting and killing innocent civilians? What sucks is that only this morning, did our State Department issue an alert about travel in the city of Urumqi. It took 5 days before our own government to take any real notice.
Get a picture of a policemen even touching a Uighur, and BAM. Like wolves circling a chicken's den.
Surely you don't mean, going around beheading women, children, and the elderly is justified, even if there are justifiable reasons for their anger?
Indeed, there is a economic gap between the majority of the 2 ethnic groups, and the travel restrictions imposed on the Uyghurs before and after the Olympics did not help, but murder is still murder. The social problems are indeed problems that need to be fixed.
Clashes in Xinjiang have occurred since the Western Han dynasty between the Han and other ethnic groups (some of which have no disappeared into history), when the Uyghurs were not even in that region.
On the other hand, I fail to see the so-called 'repression' of ethnic culture so often said as common fact by the MSM. The minorities are not bound by the One child policy (unlike the Han), their languages are taught to them in school, all signs are bilingual in minority areas, they are given preference to enter college even with lower marks. This is better than the treatment of minorities in some Western countries, but is never mentioned by the MSM. Many in China think these policies are discriminatory against the Han - another problem to deal with.
And as with Tibet, the gov't loses the PR war, even though they have improved considerably in that dept since Tibet last yr. You can't do much when journalists go in to take threatening pictures of the security forces and imply that they shoot civilians for fun when the journalists are not around, instead of trying to find out the truth.
Interesting fact: Malcom Moore of the D. Telegraph has apologised for jumping to the conclusion that the gov't killed a 'peaceful' protest immediately, and was later criticised after it was revealed 90% of the injured were Han with stab wounds and blunt force injuries, while the rest were Uyghurs who had tried to help the injured.
Indeed, there is a economic gap between the majority of the 2 ethnic groups, and the travel restrictions imposed on the Uyghurs before and after the Olympics did not help, but murder is still murder. The social problems are indeed problems that need to be fixed.
Clashes in Xinjiang have occurred since the Western Han dynasty between the Han and other ethnic groups (some of which have no disappeared into history), when the Uyghurs were not even in that region.
On the other hand, I fail to see the so-called 'repression' of ethnic culture so often said as common fact by the MSM. The minorities are not bound by the One child policy (unlike the Han), their languages are taught to them in school, all signs are bilingual in minority areas, they are given preference to enter college even with lower marks. This is better than the treatment of minorities in some Western countries, but is never mentioned by the MSM. Many in China think these policies are discriminatory against the Han - another problem to deal with.
And as with Tibet, the gov't loses the PR war, even though they have improved considerably in that dept since Tibet last yr. You can't do much when journalists go in to take threatening pictures of the security forces and imply that they shoot civilians for fun when the journalists are not around, instead of trying to find out the truth.
Interesting fact: Malcom Moore of the D. Telegraph has apologised for jumping to the conclusion that the gov't killed a 'peaceful' protest immediately, and was later criticised after it was revealed 90% of the injured were Han with stab wounds and blunt force injuries, while the rest were Uyghurs who had tried to help the injured.
Last edited by maffiaw (2009-07-10 19:24:00)
Surely, you don't mean that the Chinese government hasn't done similar things to any group that got in their way (see Falun Gong and organ harvesting)?maffiaw wrote:
Surely you don't mean, going around beheading women, children, and the elderly is justified, even if there are justifiable reasons for their anger?
Well, of course, you're going to lose the PR war when your government has seized a large chunk of land illegally from an ethnic group. All of the violence that ensues afterwards is just retaliation at that point. Look at the Israel-Palestine situation.maffiaw wrote:
And as with Tibet, the gov't loses the PR war, even though they have improved considerably in that dept since Tibet last yr. You can't do much when journalists go in to take threatening pictures of the security forces and imply that they shoot civilians for fun when the journalists are not around, instead of trying to find out the truth.
It doesn't make terrorism right, but at the same time, terrorism is a given until the affected areas are given independence.
maffiaw wrote:
And as with Tibet, the gov't loses the PR war, even though they have improved considerably in that dept since Tibet last yr. You can't do much when journalists go in to take threatening pictures of the security forces and imply that they shoot civilians for fun when the journalists are not around, instead of trying to find out the truth.