Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6897|67.222.138.85
I can reflect on what has been without a doubt the biggest waste of time I have ever experienced, and most likely will ever experience, without being categorically ignored.

Our education system is flawed at a fundamental level. We demand the unquantifiable be quantified in test scores and aptitude tests. We ask for personal responsibility in all the wrong places, demanding hours a day in the classroom and having little reward for levels of understanding beyond rote learning. Everything operates on the basis that something learned once will be remembered indefinitely, and that we are all going to become modern day renaissance men and women. There is no focus on the ability to troubleshoot a situation. There is no expressed desire of true understanding for the extension of basic principles. There is not even a sense that competence is even a compliment - the admiration/jealousy expressed towards those of higher standing does not stem from the fact that they are the most efficient, only from the universal understanding that they have the godlike, unprioritized work ethic to put more hours in than anyone else is willing to.

I live in a pretty good school district, by conventional standards anyways. I have no doubt that it is better than most school districts, and I am thankful that my parents have the will and the way to make that happen. This also means I have seen how criminally inefficient the system is at taking what talent it has and making it achieve to its highest capacity. Students will change their attitudes to suit the requirements of the rewards dangled in front of them. In the case of education, the only immediate goal is that of class rank/gpa at the moment. Students are rarely presented with means to judge themselves against their peers and reward each other or be rewarded by the administration for demonstrating skills and abilities outside achievement in the classroom. If competence in the classroom mirrored what is viewed as competence in the real world, this wouldn't be a problem. When those classroom skills are that of strategic test taking, finding the mental equivalent of woodworking jigs to identify and solve specific types of problems, and the work ethic of George Orwell's Boxer, then the values in and out of the classroom are obviously very different.

I know one kid, ranked within the top 10 (out of 1361), who couldn't make a circuit out of a long piece of wire and a battery. I know another kid ranked within the top 20 who asked me a couple months ago whether the stove we were cooking on was gas or electric. Our #2 was very good in history classes - beasting through reading assignments multiple times before quizzes and tests - and at memorizing her way through all the regurgitation material in physics, but couldn't do the most basic application questions. These - along with the cheaters that make up a rather large percentage of the "successful" people - are the people being rewarded in this system. It's not just the fact that desirable traits are not being nurtured. That alone wouldn't be so bad. The fact is the desirable traits are being repressed in favor of other traits that are more profitable in the short term. As it is set up now, creativity, intuition, the desire for understanding, and the ability to struggle with problems independently are being systematically crushed out of students.

Public schooling lasts too long. As soon as most children are able to function maturely and responsibly they should be funneled into a form of the work force. That does not mean 20 year olds don't meet this requirement; there is a difference between the choice to act immaturely and the inability to act maturely. At least by age 15, kids should be directed towards their area of interest very closely, and those industries along with personal drive should begin to take charge of their education. A very high level of specialization is demanded now, and will be in even greater demand in the future. There is no reason to be wasting the time of perfectly able people in a fairytale land of gpa and free rent when education could become extremely pertinent and rewarding.

The one real object of education is to leave a man in the condition of continually asking questions.

- Bishop Creighton

The aim of education should be to teach us rather how to think, than what to think—rather to improve our minds, so as to enable us to think for ourselves, than to load the memory with the thoughts of other men.

- Bill Beattie

The only purpose of education is to teach a student how to live his life-by developing his mind and equipping him to deal with reality. The training he needs is theoretical, i.e., conceptual. He has to be taught to think, to understand, to integrate, to prove. He has to be taught the essentials of the knowledge discovered in the past-and he has to be equipped to acquire further knowledge by his own effort.

- Ayn Rand
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6727|Long Island, New York
There was a girl in AP US History who didn't even know who shot Abraham Lincoln or JFK.

Like honestly, how do these kids get into these classes? It's ridiculous.

About your last paragraph though, I'm not sure. I think I've switched my area of interest several times (although I've finally decided on aviation) and I know many others who don't know what they want to do. What you're saying sounds good on paper, but wouldn't work well in the long run.
Morpheus
This shit still going?
+508|6189|The Mitten

Poseidon wrote:

There was a girl in AP US History who didn't even know who shot Abraham Lincoln or JFK.

Like honestly, how do these kids get into these classes? It's ridiculous.

About your last paragraph though, I'm not sure. I think I've switched my area of interest several times (although I've finally decided on aviation) and I know many others who don't know what they want to do. What you're saying sounds good on paper, but wouldn't work well in the long run.
I agree.

The problem is that (to me anyway) almost everything sounds good on paper, but turns to shit in the real world- there are too many factors, mainly people themselves, that are too vague to account for.

Yes, some people are better at memorizing things, while others can think better 'on their feet'. The problem is, do you have two separate schooling systems? Think about extra costs, etc.

Also, if you start channeling people into the 'labor force' as you put it, are you really getting people who want to be docotrs, or parents who want to have their kids become doctors?
EE (hats
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5891|College Park, MD
Agreed except for the early-age specialization thing. Three years ago under your system I probably would have been trained in gas pumping since I sure as hell didn't know what I wanted to do. Even now I'm not so sure.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6897|67.222.138.85
"It sounds good on paper, but it won't work, but the reasons why it won't work are so vague I'm not going to name them"

Morpheus wrote:

Yes, some people are better at memorizing things, while others can think better 'on their feet'. The problem is, do you have two separate schooling systems? Think about extra costs, etc.
Fuck memorization. There doesn't need to be a school for memorization. The core tenets of the only school system should be understanding and mental agility.

Morpheus wrote:

Also, if you start channeling people into the 'labor force' as you put it, are you really getting people who want to be docotrs, or parents who want to have their kids become doctors?
Doesn't matter so long as there is no difference from my way and the system as it is.
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6727|Long Island, New York

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

"It sounds good on paper, but it won't work, but the reasons why it won't work are so vague I'm not going to name them"
Now now, don't get your panties into a bunch.

The reason why it won't work is because as Morpheus said, too many factors would come into play. Mainly people themselves.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6897|67.222.138.85
No one knows what they want to do because the current system isn't critical enough to tell you what you are good at. Unless you have such a crippling deficiency in one area that you cannot get by with extensive studying and memorization, you don't know what your strong points and your weak points are.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6897|67.222.138.85

Poseidon wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

"It sounds good on paper, but it won't work, but the reasons why it won't work are so vague I'm not going to name them"
Now now, don't get your panties into a bunch.

The reason why it won't work is because as Morpheus said, too many factors would come into play. Mainly people themselves.
More of the same. Be specific.

Something else the school system is very bad at, teaching kids how to evaluate things critically. Not just bad or good, but bad or good why.

One of the easiest things I do to tell if I think someone is sharp or dull is ask them what they think of something, a movie, a picture, a game, anything. Most people give an opinion without explaining why - most what I would consider intelligent people give detailed reasons why they do or do not like something without being prompted.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5775

Write a 10 page paper on a subject that you can summarize in 5.
If you don't pass Gym class you don't go on to the next year.
Sex Ed and DARE education are mandatory for graduation.

IMHO Public schools don't teach enough ethics and management. I would love it, if high schools would add classes on teaching people things like responsibility, proper conduct, ethics, life management and planning, and finance. But we must support the arts.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6897|67.222.138.85

Macbeth wrote:

IMHO Public schools don't teach enough ethics and management. I would love it, if high schools would add classes on teaching people things like responsibility, proper conduct, ethics, life management and planning, and finance. But we must support the arts.
I don't support the "fuck the arts" sentiment, but the management and particularly the ethics shout out very much so. How one can graduate without one of these classes but has to take a semester of communications applications I do not understand.
Poseidon
Fudgepack DeQueef
+3,253|6727|Long Island, New York

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

"It sounds good on paper, but it won't work, but the reasons why it won't work are so vague I'm not going to name them"
Now now, don't get your panties into a bunch.

The reason why it won't work is because as Morpheus said, too many factors would come into play. Mainly people themselves.
More of the same. Be specific.

Something else the school system is very bad at, teaching kids how to evaluate things critically. Not just bad or good, but bad or good why.

One of the easiest things I do to tell if I think someone is sharp or dull is ask them what they think of something, a movie, a picture, a game, anything. Most people give an opinion without explaining why - most what I would consider intelligent people give detailed reasons why they do or do not like something without being prompted.
lol, it's 11:00 at night and I don't really give a shit about "evaluating" your thread to the degree you want it.

I don't care if you want me to divulge into the most miniscule and semantic details. Having people choose what they want to do based on their interests at 15 will NOT work because there's no way you can decide what you want to do with your life when you have no life experience to begin with. I've switched so many times since I was 15. I finally decided on aviation because luckily my school was able to supply me with a program to get my private pilot's license for free (kinda). But even with this, I'm not set on aviation. I could still go into other careers with a PPL, and not even necessarily ones in the aviation field.

That's the best thing schools can offer.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6864|Canberra, AUS
Memorisation is useless without understanding. Rote learning in general fails.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Morpheus
This shit still going?
+508|6189|The Mitten
Ok, you know what?

Give me a lesson plan.

How are you going to teach all these things?

How will it be applicable to everyone?

How will it prepare them?
EE (hats
TSI
Cholera in the time of love
+247|6171|Toronto
FM, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

I just finished 4 years of high school. I graduate with a bilingual IB diploma, an OSSD and a fancy "our school is better than the provincial requirements so here's an extra certificate" diploma. What does it mean? That I can write? That I can read? That I can crunch numbers?

All of things, but only to an extent. A lot of the stuff on ministry exams is stardard memorisation--the sort you decry. What is the date on which Franz Ferdinand was killed? What's the molar mass of two flasks of HCl? You get the picture. Unfortunately, that will never change so long as we have public schooling. Why? Simply because we have to cater to the lowest common denominator. We cannot leave even the stupidest behind. That way, every grade curriculum has to accomodate Jimmy who has the mental capacity of a two-year-old. Otherwise, we get sued. So, essentially, the Jimmies of this world will always have an education at their level.

In most of primary school (in France), I slept. I was always done 5-10 minutes before everyone else, top of the class, etc...I was what you'd qualify as a "gifted" student. But I could not take advantage of that. The state didn't have a system for people above average. So I got lazy, I developed a terrible work ethic. I rarely study. I rarely bother to learn. I can teach myself almost anything easily. I can fix more or less anything. But I can't study for a test.

I never had to.

So these IB exams were a paradigm shift for me. They allowed me to realise how messed up my ethics were, and autonomously correct them. Did it work? I hope. I find out in a month. But in the meantime, I would like to know what would have happened had I been challenged in my younger days. I think I could have done much better. But that's all regrets now.

All that to say, public education is the problem. The state spends thousands of dollars each year to educate everyone. Thing is, this one-size-fits-all concept can't be applied to education, for many of the reasons you outlined above. Not everyone learns the same way. Some excel at rote. They get honours by regurgutating what's told. Others, like me, hardly work, but are flexible enough to apply the knowledge they have to any situation. Which ones are better? Whereas I don't agree with you about the idea of "preselecting" careers (it's impossible to truly find one's calling at the age of 15--imagine younger!), I think that kids should be groomed towards a particluar stream. Those who excel at math, in engineering, or accounting, etc. Those who are good at analysis, management. Those good at history, teaching. Etc, etc.

That is why I support the idea of school vouchers. Instead of going to public school, kids can go to any school. The state gives them the amount that would be spent on their education (I'm estimating at around 8-12k) and use it to go to privately run schools. Private schools have always been better than public ones--here's where they come into play.

Those who are brilliant go to the best schools, get scholarships, lead the nation, succeed. Those who can't or won't work go to the bottom-end schools set up to cater to them specifically, and end up pumping gas (<3 Hurri) or finding another such task which uses primarily physical, rather than mental abilities.

I know a lot of people who go to my school (private) who should never have graduated grade 6. I know a few 13-year-olds who are wiser than 95% of my cohort. These people are needed in society; they should be found and set up for greatness.

Of course, some will say that we're being unfair. Some will say that we're destining 90%+ of society to failure. True. When you run the 100m sprint, there's one winner. The rest lose. Of course, eveyone would be taught basic skills (finance, computer ed, basic medical training, mechanical work) at a young age. But then, the schools' own curriculum would be run independent of one another.

Proof? Look at France's universities: the vast majority of unis suck. There are a handful of grandes écoles, such as the ENA (Ecole nationale d'administration) which accept about a hundred applicants a year, only the best of the best. They produce the CEOs, CFOs of many enterprises and past Presidents/PMs. These men and women lead society.
I like pie.
Doctor Strangelove
Real Battlefield Veterinarian.
+1,758|6658
I'm glad I didn't go to public school.

Also you guys should watch the Fourth Season of The Wire, while the entire show is great, the fourth season is about why the current public education system fails.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6719|Global Command
Excellent post FM.

Me and the misses are contemplating home schooling are to wee ones.

Do you think this might be to much to eggpect to suceed?


But, seriously folks, that post was well timed mate.
Reciprocity
Member
+721|6770|the dank(super) side of Oregon
interesting perspective.  Much of working life, and life in general, no matter the occupation, is tedium and repitition.  so, in that sense, standard schooling is an excellent primer.


just curious, do you think it's the state's job categorize and manufacture all the little worker ants for the good of society?
Hurricane2k9
Pendulous Sweaty Balls
+1,538|5891|College Park, MD

DoctaStrangelove wrote:

I'm glad I didn't go to public school.
Same. There was a point in my life in the DC area where I would have had to be in DCPS. Thankfully I've been in one of the best private schools in the area, country even. I haven't had to deal with the shittiness that is the DC Public School system. The only public schools in the DC area that are good aren't in DC proper, they're under Montgomery County or Fairfax County or Arlington County etc.
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/36793/marylandsig.jpg
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6874|United States of America
Part of the problem is kids themselves. You undergo so many changes from when you start school to when you end that you have no idea what you want to gain from an education, if you even understand the value it provides in current society.
konfusion
mostly afk
+480|6740|CH/BR - in UK

The education system right now is flawed. US systems such as the APs, SATs, and normal high school system rewards mindless repetition of text, without actually having to know what it means. Whilst I'm not saying the education I've had doesn't have its flaws, I count myself lucky to have tortured myself with the IB. If you're intelligent, and you know what you're talking about, the IB is easier than the normal education system, and allows you to talk about stuff, explain it, without necessarily paying attention to every useless detail, but more showing how you understand it. If you're used to memorizing textbooks page for page, it's harder.

I prefer it that way, because with the IB and systems like it, you do not study for tests, but you actually try to comprehend what you're learning. Instead of being worried about remembering dates, however important they may be, you make sure you can understand a political subject, and future similar ones. There's always Google for dates, but thus far, Google cannot explain why things happen, and how the world works.

In this rapidly paced and constantly changing world we live in, learning about things that have happened is not enough. You have to learn how to work and learn independently, using all the means we have available. In my opinion, it is far more important for any one person to know how to do a Google search than to remember even dates as important as 1939. Data is at your fingertips, as long as you have the knowledge to find it.

-kon
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6904|US
The learned ability to comprehend and critically analyze information is critical, but there are many "straight facts" that people should know.  It is only those who can analyze AND have the information that really stand out.  Try having a discussion about the philosophy of The Stranger when only 10% of those in the discussion have actually read it!  I can analyze and integrate information pretty well, but I felt like an idiot without the "facts."
(Yes, I'm the asshole who can listen to other people talking about an assignment, then BS together enough information to get an A on a pop-quiz on the reading I didn't do.)

Having done home schooling, private school, and public school, home schooling and private schools seem MUCH better for general quality of education.  However, my public high-school had many more opportunities.  More students and teachers allowed much more specialization of classes.  There were about 50-ish honors/AP students in my class of 600, but that program was still pretty good.  At the same time, we had excellent CAD/CAM and CNC-lathe classes, plus dang good auto and wood shops.

What students need is the opportunity to take the classes they want and need, while still receiving a solid foundation of information.

Last edited by RAIMIUS (2009-06-12 22:55:56)

AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6343|what

Poseidon wrote:

There was a girl in AP US History who didn't even know who shot Abraham Lincoln or JFK.
Do you know who shot JFK?

(It might not have been Lee Harvey...)
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|6951

AussieReaper wrote:

Poseidon wrote:

There was a girl in AP US History who didn't even know who shot Abraham Lincoln or JFK.
Do you know who shot JFK?

(It might not have been Lee Harvey...)
sadly, this guy has a point.  nobody knows tbh.
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6839

DoctaStrangelove wrote:

I'm glad I didn't go to public school.

Also you guys should watch the Fourth Season of The Wire, while the entire show is great, the fourth season is about why the current public education system fails.
Or watch all five seasons, because it's fucking awesome
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7000|Nårvei

About time FM ...

Wake up and notice the smell of injustice and unfairness ... this is a huge problem imo and if you for one second think you can be sucessful by being smart and think rewards will come to those who waits you are dead wrong ... sucess comes to those that want it the most, those with the capability to "kill" to get what they want ...

I do however agree with you but am sorry to say it could only be fair in an ideal world and we are a long way away from just that ... you will learn to notice cheaters being promoted infront of you soon enough ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................

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