Lai
Member
+186|6453

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7998925.stm wrote:



An 89-year-old man wanted in Germany on war crimes charges has been given an 11th hour reprieve, shortly after being seized by US agents.

A US federal appeals court granted John Demjanjuk a stay of deportation after his family argued that he was too ill to be transported.
Before the stay was granted, officers detained Mr Demjanjuk at his home in Ohio, carrying him out in a wheelchair.
He is accused of being a guard at the Nazi death camp Sobibor in WWII.
It is not yet clear whether Mr Demjanjuk will be returned to his home following the stay of deportation.
Mr Demjanjuk denies the charges, claiming that he was captured by the Germans in his native Ukraine during the war and kept as a prisoner of war.

Israeli trial
He arrived in the US in 1952 as a refugee, settling in Cleveland, Ohio, where he worked in the automobile industry.

In 1988, Mr Demjanjuk was sentenced to death in Israel for crimes against humanity after Holocaust survivors identified him as the notorious "Ivan the Terrible", a guard at the Treblinka death camp.

Israel's highest court later overturned his sentence and freed him, after newly unearthed documents from the former Soviet Union indicated that "Ivan the Terrible" had probably been a different man.

Mr Demjanjuk returned to the US, but in 2002 had his US citizenship stripped because of his failure to disclose his work at Nazi camps when he first arrived as a refugee.

In 2005, a US immigration judge ruled that he could be deported to Germany, Poland or Ukraine.
Germany issued a warrant for his arrest last month, and his family have been fighting to prevent him from being deported ever since.
   
DEMJANJUK CASE TIMELINE
1952: Gains entry into the US, claiming he spent most of the war as a German prisoner
1977: First charged with war crimes, accused of being "Ivan the Terrible"
1981: Stripped of US citizenship
1986: Extradited to Israel
1993: Israeli Supreme Court overturns conviction, ruling that he is not Ivan the Terrible
2002: Loses US citizenship after a judge said there was proof he worked at Nazi camps
2005: A judge rules in favour of deportation to his native Ukraine
2009: Germany issues an arrest warrant for him; US immigration agents seize him at his home

I'm a convinced supporter of pursuing (former) Nazies, but based on what is made public, I'm dead against this man's extradition. Above is a newsflash from the BBC regarding the most recent developments.

While I don't consider one's health to be an issue when facing extradition on the basis of such serious crimes, I do consider it an issue when there is reasonable doubt the respective crimes were comitted by the person in question. In my opinion the US should not extradite Demjanjuk unless his identity is securely established. That does not count the belief of several persons or even one or two nations.

As of yet, this does not seem to be the case. I can't see why the US or the Germans even dare to prosecute a man whom the Israelis did not found proven guilty.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6831|Global Command
Dental records? Proof of some sort?

What leads you to believe they got the wrong guy?
Lai
Member
+186|6453

ATG wrote:

Dental records? Proof of some sort?

What leads you to believe they got the wrong guy?
The fact that they have not brought out any proof he is the right guy. I reckonned both Germany and the US maintain a system were one is innocent until proven guilty, not the other way around.
KuSTaV
noice
+947|6813|Gold Coast
Was just reading something on this.

Personally I think the time has come and gone for charges to be laid against them. I see your point, but, well, just let him be I guess. I also saw that Jewish groups and that were asking for a re-trial, but I argue that they as people who are most likely aged at 40ish (Rough guess, I can say that there wont be Jews from WWII in Jewish groups demanding blood) that have very little personally to do with victims of the Holocaust. I can too see their point, but, meh I guess.
noice                                                                                                        https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/awsmsanta.png
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5887

Bullshit tbh.
I'm not a Nazi sympathizer but I don't like the idea of shipping off or stripping our people of their citizenship for their crimes in other countries or for something that happened in a war.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6408|eXtreme to the maX
He's been prosecuted and not found guilty.
This long after the event its unlikely there could be any kind of proper trial.

ATG wrote:

What leads you to believe they got the wrong guy?
What leads you to believe they got the right guy?
Fuck Israel
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6713|'Murka

I'm confused. According to the article he's not being extradite, he's being deported. There is a huge difference.

He failed to note that he worked in Nazi death camps when he applied for citizenship, even though that was a requirement at the time. Thus, he gained his US citizenship under false pretenses. Thus, it is revoked. He's no longer a citizen, he has no visa, so he is deported to his country of origin (Ukraine).

It has nothing to do with extradition, which is related to a crime in another country. It has to do with immigration laws here in the US.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Lai
Member
+186|6453

FEOS wrote:

I'm confused. According to the article he's not being extradite, he's being deported. There is a huge difference.

He failed to note that he worked in Nazi death camps when he applied for citizenship, even though that was a requirement at the time. Thus, he gained his US citizenship under false pretenses. Thus, it is revoked. He's no longer a citizen, he has no visa, so he is deported to his country of origin (Ukraine).

It has nothing to do with extradition, which is related to a crime in another country. It has to do with immigration laws here in the US.
Ukraine is his country of origin, yet he's being 'deported' to Germany after it issued a warant for his arrest. Call it all you want, the result is the same.
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6713|'Murka

Lai wrote:

FEOS wrote:

I'm confused. According to the article he's not being extradite, he's being deported. There is a huge difference.

He failed to note that he worked in Nazi death camps when he applied for citizenship, even though that was a requirement at the time. Thus, he gained his US citizenship under false pretenses. Thus, it is revoked. He's no longer a citizen, he has no visa, so he is deported to his country of origin (Ukraine).

It has nothing to do with extradition, which is related to a crime in another country. It has to do with immigration laws here in the US.
Ukraine is his country of origin, yet he's being 'deported' to Germany after it issued a warant for his arrest. Call it all you want, the result is the same.
Yeah, I saw that yesterday while at work. That means he's being extradited, not deported. The news source for the OP used the wrong terms...and it makes all the difference in the world.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7018
If Israel says he isn't... Then it means a lot.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Amdi Peter
peut-être
+111|5850|paris

Cybargs wrote:

If Israel says he isn't... Then it means a lot.
Well, in 1988, he was sentenced to death in Israel, identificated by Israli holocaust survivors.
Then in 1993, the supreme court of Israel overturned the conviction, because of doubt.

I think that there's a reason to believe this is the guy.
Lai
Member
+186|6453
There are indications he is the guy, yes; but is that enough to strip an ill old man of his citizenship and extradite him?

Identification by eye witnesses in 1988 (43 years at least, after the events), aren't exactly reliable. Certainly those testimonies alone aren't nearly enough for an extradition.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6923|London, England
What did "Ivan the Terrible" do in the death camps that gave him such a name? Not saying that this guy is him, he could or couldn't be I don't know. But I'm just curious as to what this character did
Amdi Peter
peut-être
+111|5850|paris

Mekstizzle wrote:

What did "Ivan the Terrible" do in the death camps that gave him such a name? Not saying that this guy is him, he could or couldn't be I don't know. But I'm just curious as to what this character did
If I remember correctly, he was responsible of over 20000 deaths.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6973|UK

Mekstizzle wrote:

What did "Ivan the Terrible" do in the death camps that gave him such a name? Not saying that this guy is him, he could or couldn't be I don't know. But I'm just curious as to what this character did
According to a 2002 US district court ruling, reliable evidence suggests that Mr Demjanjuk was in fact an "an armed guard at Sobibor, where 250,000 men, women, and children were murdered; at the Majdanek concentration camp, where at least 170,000 civilians died; at the Flossenbuerg concentration camp, where some 30,000 civilians perished; and a member of a unit trained at the Trawniki Training Camp to implement 'Operation Reinhard', the Nazi programme to dispossess, exploit, and murder Jews in Poland".

One member of the unit, known as Ivan the Terrible, was a Wachmann (guard) for the Waffen SS at the Treblinka death camp. There, he helped operate the gas chambers and personally murdered hundreds of prisoners, hacking many of his naked victims to death with a sword, according to witnesses.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7998947.stm

Last edited by m3thod (2009-04-16 07:00:36)

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