Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5578

The Pentagon sponsored a first-of-its-kind war game last month focused not on bullets and bombs — but on how hostile nations might seek to cripple the U.S. economy, a scenario made all the more real by the global financial crisis.

The two-day event near Ft. Meade, Maryland, had all the earmarks of a regular war game. Participants sat along a V-shaped set of desks beneath an enormous wall of video monitors displaying economic data, according to the accounts of three participants.

But instead of military brass plotting America’s defense, it was hedge-fund managers, professors and executives from at least one investment bank, UBS – all invited by the Pentagon to play out global scenarios that could shift the balance of power between the world’s leading economies.

Their efforts were carefully observed and recorded by uniformed military officers and members of the U.S. intelligence community.

In the end, there was sobering news for the United States – the savviest economic warrior proved to be China, a growing economic power that strengthened its position the most over the course of the war-game.

At the end of the two days, the Chinese team emerged as the victors of the overall game – largely because the Russian and American teams had made so many moves against each other that they damaged their own standing to the benefit of the Chinese.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0409/21053.html
Well that sucks. Bad enough we can't beat them in a normal war because we'd both just end up nuking each other now they could totally kill our economy.
BVC
Member
+325|6688
If anyone is concerned about this prospect, I recommend the following book:
http://www.amazon.com/Asian-Mind-Game-C … 0892563524

War is viewed is a total endeavour, and is not restricted to the military realm.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6594|132 and Bush

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty (well below the poverty line in the West). Pretending is fun though.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6700|67.222.138.85
How much fucking money did we spend to figure that out. Note the lack of question mark, I don't actually want to know, it would probably make me rage.

Kmarion wrote:

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty (well below the poverty line in the West). Pretending is fun though.
As is pretending standard of living matters.
Switch
Knee Deep In Clunge
+489|6456|Tyne & Wear, England
When physical war becomes more and more unacceptable, we'll wage digital and economic war.  Humans will always try to crush their neighbour, it's in our nature.

Forget the thinly veiled concept of civilization, we're animals and always will be.  Survival of the fittest.
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known.
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5578

Kmarion wrote:

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty (well below the poverty line in the West). Pretending is fun though.
You make it sound like a bad thing when it comes to war. Having a huge amount of poor people you could force into doing cheap labor or as cannon fodder will help you win a major conflict.
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6594|132 and Bush

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

How much fucking money did we spend to figure that out. Note the lack of question mark, I don't actually want to know, it would probably make me rage.

Kmarion wrote:

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty (well below the poverty line in the West). Pretending is fun though.
As is pretending standard of living matters.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
LividBovine
The Year of the Cow!
+175|6372|MN

Kmarion wrote:

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty (well below the poverty line in the West). Pretending is fun though.
Realative to the west?  How is their housing market doing?  Oh yeah, they don't live in houses, they live in apartments.  They don't drive cars (most of them anyways).  Their disposable income is on the rise and ours is on the decline.  Things are definetly turning in their favor.

The Chinese economy is much more agile than ours.  Partly due to the government control and partly due to the growing disposable income of the people their (the ones in the cities anyways).
"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation" - Barack Obama (a freshman senator from Illinios)
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6700|67.222.138.85

Kmarion wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

How much fucking money did we spend to figure that out. Note the lack of question mark, I don't actually want to know, it would probably make me rage.

Kmarion wrote:

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty (well below the poverty line in the West). Pretending is fun though.
As is pretending standard of living matters.
Are you going to give a shit that the U.S. is still better off than China when your great-great-great-great grand children are living off $.50 a day?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6594|132 and Bush

LividBovine wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty (well below the poverty line in the West). Pretending is fun though.
Realative to the west?  How is their housing market doing?  Oh yeah, they don't live in houses, they live in apartments.  They don't drive cars (most of them anyways).  Their disposable income is on the rise and ours is on the decline.  Things are definetly turning in their favor.

The Chinese economy is much more agile than ours.  Partly due to the government control and partly due to the growing disposable income of the people their (the ones in the cities anyways).
Their average ppp is around 7k a year. They've got a long way to go. I'm not saying it's not going to pass ours once they start to be their own consumers. But they are nowhere near it right now.. even with their surge.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6594|132 and Bush

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

How much fucking money did we spend to figure that out. Note the lack of question mark, I don't actually want to know, it would probably make me rage.


As is pretending standard of living matters.
Are you going to give a shit that the U.S. is still better off than China when your great-great-great-great grand children are living off $.50 a day?
huh.. what are you talking about? Is that your prediction Mr.flame? Why don't you take some time and research what I've been saying about China for the last two years. Otherwise gtfo.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6700|67.222.138.85

Kmarion wrote:

LividBovine wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty (well below the poverty line in the West). Pretending is fun though.
Realative to the west?  How is their housing market doing?  Oh yeah, they don't live in houses, they live in apartments.  They don't drive cars (most of them anyways).  Their disposable income is on the rise and ours is on the decline.  Things are definetly turning in their favor.

The Chinese economy is much more agile than ours.  Partly due to the government control and partly due to the growing disposable income of the people their (the ones in the cities anyways).
Their average ppp is around 7k a year. They've got a long way to go. I'm not saying it's not going to pass ours once they start to be their own consumers. But they are nowhere near it right now.. even with their surge.
Who do you think is going to be ahead on your deathbed?
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6594|132 and Bush

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

LividBovine wrote:


Realative to the west?  How is their housing market doing?  Oh yeah, they don't live in houses, they live in apartments.  They don't drive cars (most of them anyways).  Their disposable income is on the rise and ours is on the decline.  Things are definetly turning in their favor.

The Chinese economy is much more agile than ours.  Partly due to the government control and partly due to the growing disposable income of the people their (the ones in the cities anyways).
Their average ppp is around 7k a year. They've got a long way to go. I'm not saying it's not going to pass ours once they start to be their own consumers. But they are nowhere near it right now.. even with their surge.
Who do you think is going to be ahead on your deathbed?
I do not know.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6594|132 and Bush

This should have been alarming. Didn't hear much about it though.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6099|eXtreme to the maX

kmarion wrote:

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty
Which is where the west is headed.
Their standard of living will rise, ours will fall until equilibrium is achieved.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6594|132 and Bush

Dilbert_X wrote:

kmarion wrote:

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty
Which is where the west is headed.
Their standard of living will rise, ours will fall until equilibrium is achieved.
..and when that happens they will be able to afford to sell off our bonds.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,810|6099|eXtreme to the maX
..and when that happens they will be able to afford to sell off our bonds.
You think they'll still be worth anything?
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6709

Dilbert_X wrote:

kmarion wrote:

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty
Which is where the west is headed.
Their standard of living will rise, ours will fall until equilibrium is achieved.
Because they used to live in shitholes. Not so hard being a rising economy with strong government control. China has always known to kill off millions if it was necessary to make money.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
maffiaw
ph33r me 傻逼
+40|6413|Melbourne, AUS

Cybargs wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

kmarion wrote:

The majority of China still lives in relative poverty
Which is where the west is headed.
Their standard of living will rise, ours will fall until equilibrium is achieved.
Because they used to live in shitholes. Not so hard being a rising economy with strong government control. China has always known to kill off millions if it was necessary to make money.
You are quite the funny one, son. I always thought pro-separatists prided themselves in seemingly rational, educated thought, but it seems recently that have degraded into a boganish mob. Perhaps you will be more adept in chasing your 15y.o female peers instead of attempting to put down a country you have grievances with in such a juvenile manner every chance you get.

Sure China has its (large) share of problems that won't resolve any time soon, but attempting to degrade them with the usual exaggerated emotive and bigoted mud-slinging frankly doesn't help you, us or them economically.

As for the OP, I don't think a so-called 'economic war' will play out like the Pentagon (which has vested interests to certain mil-industry lobbyists I suppose) has surmised. Nobody 'wins' in  something like that.
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6398|North Carolina

maffiaw wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Which is where the west is headed.
Their standard of living will rise, ours will fall until equilibrium is achieved.
Because they used to live in shitholes. Not so hard being a rising economy with strong government control. China has always known to kill off millions if it was necessary to make money.
You are quite the funny one, son. I always thought pro-separatists prided themselves in seemingly rational, educated thought, but it seems recently that have degraded into a boganish mob. Perhaps you will be more adept in chasing your 15y.o female peers instead of attempting to put down a country you have grievances with in such a juvenile manner every chance you get.

Sure China has its (large) share of problems that won't resolve any time soon, but attempting to degrade them with the usual exaggerated emotive and bigoted mud-slinging frankly doesn't help you, us or them economically.

As for the OP, I don't think a so-called 'economic war' will play out like the Pentagon (which has vested interests to certain mil-industry lobbyists I suppose) has surmised. Nobody 'wins' in  something like that.
What he said was true.  If you don't believe him, all I have to do is point out what the Chinese government did to the Falun Gong.

Last edited by Turquoise (2009-04-12 03:47:59)

maffiaw
ph33r me 傻逼
+40|6413|Melbourne, AUS
Really Turq? I may have had a similar argument with you ages ago, I dunno.

Falun Gong is another matter - why is it always brought up? This thread is about economics ffs. It's not some mudcake that you can throw anytime.

Killing off millions - do you mean One Child Policy, or Tiananmen?

One Child Policy - Without it China will be like India today - cramped, shanty towns even more crowded than today. It is loosely enforced in the countryside, where farmers have to have a son - they have to pay a fine for a 2nd child. It has created a massive male overpopulation and that is going to be a huge problem for the future.

Tiananmen - The popular perception is that it was a suppression of pro-democracy activists in 1989. This is partly true. One can argue that without such brutal suppression, China will be still be mired in poverty, and perhaps even severely Balkanised  and weakened like Russia today, except with a much larger population to feed. Another group of demonstrators were in fact workers wanting to return to Communism - they were afraid of future economic gap due to Deng's sino-capitalism. You could argue that the suppression was done for the survival of capitalism.

So, was all this Commie brouhaha just for killing's sake, or a longer term advantage for the country? (as well as their own hold on power). Well if it weren't, China wouldn't have lifted 500 million ppl out of poverty, wouldn't be such a threat to some of you guys, the Pentagon wouldn't be running ecowar games on it, and Cyborg wouldn't be so ascerbic.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6709

maffiaw wrote:

Cybargs wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Which is where the west is headed.
Their standard of living will rise, ours will fall until equilibrium is achieved.
Because they used to live in shitholes. Not so hard being a rising economy with strong government control. China has always known to kill off millions if it was necessary to make money.
You are quite the funny one, son. I always thought pro-separatists prided themselves in seemingly rational, educated thought, but it seems recently that have degraded into a boganish mob. Perhaps you will be more adept in chasing your 15y.o female peers instead of attempting to put down a country you have grievances with in such a juvenile manner every chance you get.

Sure China has its (large) share of problems that won't resolve any time soon, but attempting to degrade them with the usual exaggerated emotive and bigoted mud-slinging frankly doesn't help you, us or them economically.

As for the OP, I don't think a so-called 'economic war' will play out like the Pentagon (which has vested interests to certain mil-industry lobbyists I suppose) has surmised. Nobody 'wins' in  something like that.
Have you been to China? It's an absolute piece of shit.

I'm not saying China isn't rising as an economic power, but how it's done is the question. Cheap labour + no labour unions + no enviromental concerns + Multinational corporate investments (mostly US corporations) + State Capitalism = Large increase of economic growth.

If you actually learned some Chinese history, even during the dynasties millions were killed off due to construction projects or military expansion. Oh and btw, just because I live in Taiwan doesn't automate me being a Taiwanese Citizen.

Edit in response to latest quote:

China didn't lift up proverty, US corporations had a lot do with it. Well, I'm not saying the Chinese gov is directly killing off millions, but indirectly by allowing shit loads of toxic and pollutants in their ecosystems. Their enviromental policy is what is slowly killing their population. They may rise now, but a strong decline would soon follow if they don't change their attitude towards the enviroment.

Last edited by Cybargs (2009-04-12 04:03:40)

https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6398|North Carolina

maffiaw wrote:

Really Turq? I may have had a similar argument with you ages ago, I dunno.

Falun Gong is another matter - why is it always brought up? This thread is about economics ffs. It's not some mudcake that you can throw anytime.

Killing off millions - do you mean One Child Policy, or Tiananmen?

One Child Policy - Without it China will be like India today - cramped, shanty towns even more crowded than today. It is loosely enforced in the countryside, where farmers have to have a son - they have to pay a fine for a 2nd child. It has created a massive male overpopulation and that is going to be a huge problem for the future.

Tiananmen - The popular perception is that it was a suppression of pro-democracy activists in 1989. This is partly true. One can argue that without such brutal suppression, China will be still be mired in poverty, and perhaps even severely Balkanised  and weakened like Russia today, except with a much larger population to feed. Another group of demonstrators were in fact workers wanting to return to Communism - they were afraid of future economic gap due to Deng's sino-capitalism. You could argue that the suppression was done for the survival of capitalism.

So, was all this Commie brouhaha just for killing's sake, or a longer term advantage for the country? (as well as their own hold on power). Well if it weren't, China wouldn't have lifted 500 million ppl out of poverty, wouldn't be such a threat to some of you guys, the Pentagon wouldn't be running ecowar games on it, and Cyborg wouldn't be so ascerbic.
Call it whatever you like, but there's no denying that the Chinese government is made up of masters of Machiavellianism.  They do whatever is most practical without any real concern for ethics.

So again, you can use whatever mental gymnastics you like to defend their tactics, but you're not fooling anyone.

But hey, I'll admit that most governments do some of the same.  The only difference is that countries like America can't quite go to the same extremes as China because their people demand more ethics.  As fucked up as America can be, we haven't quite reached the China level of ruthlessness.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6709

Turquoise wrote:

maffiaw wrote:

Really Turq? I may have had a similar argument with you ages ago, I dunno.

Falun Gong is another matter - why is it always brought up? This thread is about economics ffs. It's not some mudcake that you can throw anytime.

Killing off millions - do you mean One Child Policy, or Tiananmen?

One Child Policy - Without it China will be like India today - cramped, shanty towns even more crowded than today. It is loosely enforced in the countryside, where farmers have to have a son - they have to pay a fine for a 2nd child. It has created a massive male overpopulation and that is going to be a huge problem for the future.

Tiananmen - The popular perception is that it was a suppression of pro-democracy activists in 1989. This is partly true. One can argue that without such brutal suppression, China will be still be mired in poverty, and perhaps even severely Balkanised  and weakened like Russia today, except with a much larger population to feed. Another group of demonstrators were in fact workers wanting to return to Communism - they were afraid of future economic gap due to Deng's sino-capitalism. You could argue that the suppression was done for the survival of capitalism.

So, was all this Commie brouhaha just for killing's sake, or a longer term advantage for the country? (as well as their own hold on power). Well if it weren't, China wouldn't have lifted 500 million ppl out of poverty, wouldn't be such a threat to some of you guys, the Pentagon wouldn't be running ecowar games on it, and Cyborg wouldn't be so ascerbic.
Call it whatever you like, but there's no denying that the Chinese government is made up of masters of Machiavellianism.  They do whatever is most practical without any real concern for ethics.

So again, you can use whatever mental gymnastics you like to defend their tactics, but you're not fooling anyone.

But hey, I'll admit that most governments do some of the same.  The only difference is that countries like America can't quite go to the same extremes as China because their people demand more ethics.  As fucked up as America can be, we haven't quite reached the China level of ruthlessness.
China never had civil liberties in their history. If you don't know what it's like, you would never ask for it.
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6398|North Carolina

Cybargs wrote:

China never had civil liberties in their history. If you don't know what it's like, you would never ask for it.
Good point...

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