BF2S Forums I.O.U.S.A.. the 30 minute version

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Which brings us back full circle to why leadership is key to solving the other problems.

It could...  possibly...  although education would probably be a more surefire way to do it.  If the average person actually knew more about finance, they'd probably invest smarter.

FM wrote:

Still, that was not the point. Corporations influence to some degree, but do not run government, and they certainly do not exempt government from taking responsibility.

I think you misinterpreted me.  Never did I say that the government should be exempt from responsibility.  I was stating that the government works for corporations.  They follow the needs of the average person only so far as it is required for re-election.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Reckless speculation is only a danger to the individual engaging in it. The problem only occurs at large when others piggy back on it.

Yes, because investing for your retirement generally involves said piggy backing.

The problem is that reckless speculation has become widespread.  When companies that are considered "too big to fall" engage in this behavior, millions lose their retirement.

That, to me, is the greatest crime of our system.  The many suffer for the greed of the few.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

A guy wants to gamble his life savings in Vegas. He is only hurting himself. Then other individuals bet on him betting. Then other individuals bet on those individuals, and yet more individuals bet on those individuals. Then when guy #1 goes down, the whole pyramid goes with him. It is not "society" that suffers, it is a series of individuals engaging in that gamble.

At what point would you consider the group of gamblers large enough to constitute being society that suffers?  With this most recent crisis, a rather large portion of our population has been affected.  I would consider this society suffering, as would many others.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Society only suffers when leadership decides the gamblers are too big to fail.

...or when it becomes known that the institutions that most of us invest in are no more trustworthy than a casino.

Fm will f'n blockquote you to death.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

It is impossible without leadership. To educate people, to make the right decisions, whatever.

True...  Teachers are leaders too.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Government works for corporations no more than they work for the people. Politicians work for themselves. In some cases corporations have more to offer them, in others their constituency. Corporations do not make policy.

Take a walk down K Street.  You'll feel differently.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

In the case of the banks, FDIC insurance. That is a good practice. People who have invested not necessarily wisely, but at least smartly aren't screwed by what is supposed to be a trustworthy institution, but if they are allowed to fail when appropriate then there is still incentive to invest wisely.

In principle, I agree.  The only problem is...  apparently, things have gotten to the point that even the FDIC needed a bailout.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

What about when the many rejoice in plenty because of the greed of a few?

I'm not sure I follow you.  About the only time that happens is when a nation crushes another for its resources.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Never. Every single person could be engaged, but they are doing it as individuals. Every one of them has made (or at least has had the opportunity to make) their own decision - society by definition assumes no capability of the individual to act.

We will definitely have to agree to disagree on that one.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Society suffers up to this point. After this turning point society benefits by the abandonment of the old institutions and the welcoming of the new.

Maybe...  if the new institutions are better managed at least....

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Government works for corporations no more than they work for the people. Politicians work for themselves. In some cases corporations have more to offer them, in others their constituency. Corporations do not make policy.

Take a walk down K Street.  You'll feel differently.

Again, how do massive pieces of legislation like Social Security go through if corporations are the end all be all of legislation? They do not make policy. They influence it.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

In the case of the banks, FDIC insurance. That is a good practice. People who have invested not necessarily wisely, but at least smartly aren't screwed by what is supposed to be a trustworthy institution, but if they are allowed to fail when appropriate then there is still incentive to invest wisely.

In principle, I agree.  The only problem is...  apparently, things have gotten to the point that even the FDIC needed a bailout.

What makes you say this?

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

What about when the many rejoice in plenty because of the greed of a few?

I'm not sure I follow you.  About the only time that happens is when a nation crushes another for its resources.

Think America whenever people aren't bitching about a recession on their Blackberries, blogging about it on their $2000 computers, or screaming at their 52" hi-def TV.

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Never. Every single person could be engaged, but they are doing it as individuals. Every one of them has made (or at least has had the opportunity to make) their own decision - society by definition assumes no capability of the individual to act.

We will definitely have to agree to disagree on that one.

stupid

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Society suffers up to this point. After this turning point society benefits by the abandonment of the old institutions and the welcoming of the new.

Maybe...  if the new institutions are better managed at least....

If they aren't they will fail as their predecessors have in this magical land of make believe.

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

hey he started that shit

He didn't even watch the OP. I love ya turq but you're just using this as a platform . Makes me sad tbh

If you feel that I've derailed this too far, I can clean it up.

No it's on topic.. but feck, at least give me the courtesy of a reach around before the sermon.

Kmarion wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

He didn't even watch the OP. I love ya turq but you're just using this as a platform . Makes me sad tbh

If you feel that I've derailed this too far, I can clean it up.

No it's on topic.. but feck, at least give me the courtesy of a reach around before the sermon.

The cleaning is the reacharound  (yeah, what an image, eh?)