Read Huxley's description of agnosticism before just reducing it down to 'religious uncertainty', that's a bit of a misnomer.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
I do not understand why you brand atheists as agnostics.Braddock wrote:
Atheism is not a presence of something h4hagen, it is an absence of something. It is a weak argument to argue why shouldn't there be a God because the burden of proof should be on the person putting forward the argument. Atheists (or to be more accurate Agnostics) are not putting forward an argument, they are simply saying that we have no conclusive proof of the existence of a higher being and they simply live their lives in terms of what they can empirically and logically deduce. If I were to take your approach I could ask why shouldn't there be a Santa Claus or why shouldn't there be a tooth fairy.h4hagen wrote:
And Atheism is just another way of trying to impose structure on it. I would argue that another point of human nature is to believe ourselves to be dominant, and yet somewhere along the way someone came up with the idea of god. I know where your coming from, but why shouldn't there be a god? There's a verse in the bible that says something along the lines of "My ways are beyond your understanding" (And I hate to go and grab stuff from the bible to support my points) but why couldn't there be things beyond our understanding?Braddock wrote:
Why should there have to be a God? It's a symptom of the human mind to always try and impose structure on things where there is often no rhyme or reason at all. This is seen in almost every aspect of human perception and cognition, from how we always try to find patterns in what we see and hear (as outlined by the Gestalt theorists) to the way in which we formulate high-level concepts and world-views (as illustrated brilliantly once by Derren Brown in an experiment involving people in a controlled "game" environment where points were gained on a completely random basis - the participants formed highly complex theories regarding how they were gaining points, all of which were rubbish).
I don't mean to sound insulting but when it comes to religion people are inexplicably given a free pass when it comes to evidence and are often allowed to put forward arguments and theories that follow the same logic as that seen in conspiracy theories. If I were in a court of law I'd make judgments based on the evidence put before me, if I were in a scientific laboratory I'd make judgments based on the data before me... I'm not going to make an exception for religion. I demand proof, until then I will continue to live my life happily, as I am now.
I have no proof that there is or isn't a God, but I am absolutely certain that there is some sort of existence after this one, based on my own experiences, so I can't rule out the possibility.
There is much evidence that religion is a basic human need for the majority of people, and many similar traits among religions in how they evolved and common elements that they consist of. There is also the fact that religion is the second oldest profession, and ample reasons to be cynical about it's current state.
But the need to have a belief system is so built into most of our brains that I find it hard to believe most people when they say they are content believing in nothing.
I think there is a lot of denial about our need to have some sort of relationship with a higher power.
There are also a lot of dishonest people.
i love labels.Vilham wrote:
Only if you assume to know the logic of the supreme being. The exact reason that being atheist is retarded as is believing in any of the religions.Mitch wrote:
Truth.usmarine wrote:
this game is stupid.
if god doesnt stop someone from putting a baby in the microwave.....or explain why he/she/it let it happen. then you are a fucking idiot for worshiping said thing.
and that god has a plan BS is not applicable. if he wanted the baby dead, he doesnt need a microwave for a painful death right?
fuck i hate religion.
All logic points towards no supreme being.
I could unload but really, i dont think its appropriate
EVERYONE is agnostic, it's just whether they choose to accept that or not. No one can say "God exists" or "God doesn't exist" you quite simply don't know. You can claim to, you can even put forward several arguments, but all of those arguments assume you know how the supreme being acts or would act if he exists.
i just dont give a flying fuck if there is or isnt. whats the label for that?
Apathetic .usmarine wrote:
i love labels.Vilham wrote:
Only if you assume to know the logic of the supreme being. The exact reason that being atheist is retarded as is believing in any of the religions.Mitch wrote:
Truth.
All logic points towards no supreme being.
I could unload but really, i dont think its appropriate
EVERYONE is agnostic, it's just whether they choose to accept that or not. No one can say "God exists" or "God doesn't exist" you quite simply don't know. You can claim to, you can even put forward several arguments, but all of those arguments assume you know how the supreme being acts or would act if he exists.
i just dont give a flying fuck if there is or isnt. whats the label for that?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
doesnt give a fuck-erusmarine wrote:
i love labels.Vilham wrote:
Only if you assume to know the logic of the supreme being. The exact reason that being atheist is retarded as is believing in any of the religions.Mitch wrote:
Truth.
All logic points towards no supreme being.
I could unload but really, i dont think its appropriate
EVERYONE is agnostic, it's just whether they choose to accept that or not. No one can say "God exists" or "God doesn't exist" you quite simply don't know. You can claim to, you can even put forward several arguments, but all of those arguments assume you know how the supreme being acts or would act if he exists.
i just dont give a flying fuck if there is or isnt. whats the label for that?
EDIT: I liked mine better.
Last edited by h4hagen (2009-04-03 12:58:53)
Personally, I don't see why atheists and agnostics make such a fuss about religion. Religion is a concept that thrives on the fervour of criticis to reinforce the ideals imprinted upon the believers, and whether there is a god or not, religion is not a natural instinct, and cannot thrive on its own. The benchmarks that have defined the relative successes and failures of organised religions through the course of history are all concerned with the subversion or abolishment of those that actively oppose them. If the opposition, and even the supposedly indifferent masses show no interest in organised religion, then the demonisation of heathens will be accepted only by the fervent, and the confrontational behaviour between the two lines of thought will be confined to the unavoidable extremes.
Religion is the only topic which has stood up to criticism and arguments of logic for millenia. It's naïve to think that this will ever change.
Religion is the only topic which has stood up to criticism and arguments of logic for millenia. It's naïve to think that this will ever change.
no i want a fancy religious term.
Apatheisticusmarine wrote:
no i want a fancy religious term.
EDIT: Fuck, I just thought I was being clever, but that's an actual term that may or may not fit you.
Last edited by DesertFox- (2009-04-03 13:07:18)
I don't bundle atheists and agnostics in together actually, I was simply trying to point out that I myself would be agnostic technically if one wanted to put a label on it... I should have been clearer in my original post though. Atheism is technically a belief system I suppose if you are trying to claim absolute certainty that God doesn't exist, and it's inherently ignorant too when you think about it. Agnosticism, in simple terms, is simply admitting that you do not know either way.ATG wrote:
I do not understand why you brand atheists as agnostics.Braddock wrote:
Atheism is not a presence of something h4hagen, it is an absence of something. It is a weak argument to argue why shouldn't there be a God because the burden of proof should be on the person putting forward the argument. Atheists (or to be more accurate Agnostics) are not putting forward an argument, they are simply saying that we have no conclusive proof of the existence of a higher being and they simply live their lives in terms of what they can empirically and logically deduce. If I were to take your approach I could ask why shouldn't there be a Santa Claus or why shouldn't there be a tooth fairy.h4hagen wrote:
And Atheism is just another way of trying to impose structure on it. I would argue that another point of human nature is to believe ourselves to be dominant, and yet somewhere along the way someone came up with the idea of god. I know where your coming from, but why shouldn't there be a god? There's a verse in the bible that says something along the lines of "My ways are beyond your understanding" (And I hate to go and grab stuff from the bible to support my points) but why couldn't there be things beyond our understanding?
I don't mean to sound insulting but when it comes to religion people are inexplicably given a free pass when it comes to evidence and are often allowed to put forward arguments and theories that follow the same logic as that seen in conspiracy theories. If I were in a court of law I'd make judgments based on the evidence put before me, if I were in a scientific laboratory I'd make judgments based on the data before me... I'm not going to make an exception for religion. I demand proof, until then I will continue to live my life happily, as I am now.
I have no proof that there is or isn't a God, but I am absolutely certain that there is some sort of existence after this one, based on my own experiences, so I can't rule out the possibility.
There is much evidence that religion is a basic human need for the majority of people, and many similar traits among religions in how they evolved and common elements that they consist of. There is also the fact that religion is the second oldest profession, and ample reasons to be cynical about it's current state.
But the need to have a belief system is so built into most of our brains that I find it hard to believe most people when they say they are content believing in nothing.
I think there is a lot of denial about our need to have some sort of relationship with a higher power.
There are also a lot of dishonest people.
You are right about the biological aspect of religion but if you look at the course of human history religion appears to simply be the social contract wrapped up in the mythology of the time... perhaps a necessity to keep humans in line when we developed more critical thinking and began questioning the existence of our "gods"?
I don't believe in "nothing", I am surrounded by an incredible world that I can see and touch and smell, and beyond that an incredible universe... that's quite enough for me to believe in thanks, and it fills me wonder every day I'm here.
Not all do.mikkel wrote:
Personally, I don't see why atheists and agnostics make such a fuss about religion.
I'm an Apatheistic Agnostic Atheist.
Last edited by Noobpatty (2009-04-03 13:33:50)
Is there a label for people who don't believe in the tooth fairy or santa claus?
People over 8 years oldBraddock wrote:
Is there a label for people who don't believe in the tooth fairy or santa claus?
YeahBraddock wrote:
Is there a label for people who don't believe in the tooth fairy or santa claus?
Sane.
Sure anticlausist, and afairiest,Braddock wrote:
Is there a label for people who don't believe in the tooth fairy or santa claus?
... and not collecting stamps is antistampathy; or antistampathetic.
Last edited by topal63 (2009-04-03 13:25:03)
This phrase makes me think of this song...
I don't believe in a god/gods myself. I don't know why I am here or what will happen when I die, and I'm ok with that. It's not very comforting but I'm not searching for comfort so no big deal for me. Keep searching for the truth but accept the fact that you may never know for sure. People tend to fear the unknown so if there is no way to know for sure....any answer will do and this seems a likely "birthplace" for the idea of religion imo. It gives people order and direction or a feeling of control in their lives. They can control where they spend eternity by their deeds and by doing what's right in the eyes of their god. The afterlife is no longer unknown since they followed the rules and now expect their heavenly reward. I always wondered....why do people need to be threatened w/ punishment(hell) to do what's right? Are everyones actions governed by the consequences? If god was thought to be false by all on earth would everyone just say fuck it and go nuts? and if so did he create us that way? These questions and many more are the ones I don't get to ask my RL christian friends since they seem to get so bent out of shape from a question.ATG wrote:
Do you have one?
That empty space in your heart that nothing can fill.
What comfort does the atheist offer?
What knowledge we agnostics can purvey?
These questions annoy me.
Last edited by El Beardo (2009-04-03 16:06:35)
What could I possibly miss out on by not believing in God?
Who says life needs to have been ordained by a higher power in order for it to have meaning?
Who says life needs to have been ordained by a higher power in order for it to have meaning?
Well you could miss out on an eternity in heaven.Ataronchronon wrote:
What could I possibly miss out on by not believing in God?
Who says life needs to have been ordained by a higher power in order for it to have meaning?
Enlightenment.
This insane feeling that the indoctrination can give you, almost like being drunk on something all the time. That sort of thing m8.
Spoiler (highlight to read):
I'm not religious. I've tried it though. Taken Christianity for a test drive. Idk maybe Judaism or Islam would suit me better. I'm also curious about the religions from the subcontinent but idk... I think if I am religious its a religion of the book kinda thing.
Just...... I keep thinking even if there is a dude up there, is he really all that relevant. Do we need him?
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Roman Bastardusmarine wrote:
no i want a fancy religious term.
Evangelical Bastard
...
I'm going to start up a new religion the religion of beer/hockey and football.
We'll call it, The religion of Beer/Hockey/Football.
Last edited by S3v3N (2009-04-03 17:20:51)
Just call it Menism or something.S3v3N wrote:
Roman Bastardusmarine wrote:
no i want a fancy religious term.
Evangelical Bastard
...
I'm going to start up a new religion the religion of beer/hockey and football.
We'll call it, The religion of Beer/Hockey/Football.
Make every single bar/sporting club etc. in the USA a church and make all the major players and coaches in the various major football and hockey teams saints. Games could be 'mass' services.
I'd join. Ice hockey is epic.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Pure Genius,Flecco wrote:
Just call it Menism or something.S3v3N wrote:
Roman Bastardusmarine wrote:
no i want a fancy religious term.
Evangelical Bastard
...
I'm going to start up a new religion the religion of beer/hockey and football.
We'll call it, The religion of Beer/Hockey/Football.
Make every single bar/sporting club etc. in the USA a church and make all the major players and coaches in the various major football and hockey teams saints. Games could be 'mass' services.
I'd join. Ice hockey is epic.
Arch Bishop Flecco.
God/Jesus supposedly lets anyone willing to be cleansed of his/her sins into heaven.Flecco wrote:
Well you could miss out on an eternity in heaven.Ataronchronon wrote:
What could I possibly miss out on by not believing in God?
Who says life needs to have been ordained by a higher power in order for it to have meaning?
Enlightenment.
This insane feeling that the indoctrination can give you, almost like being drunk on something all the time. That sort of thing m8.
Spoiler (highlight to read):
I'm not religious. I've tried it though. Taken Christianity for a test drive. Idk maybe Judaism or Islam would suit me better. I'm also curious about the religions from the subcontinent but idk... I think if I am religious its a religion of the book kinda thing.
Just...... I keep thinking even if there is a dude up there, is he really all that relevant. Do we need him?
Irrational beliefs are hardly enlightening.
Dunno what indoctrination is, sorry.
Just because I say there is an invisible oogagbooga, is the fact you don't believe just because you have no proof they don't exist make you dumb?ATG wrote:
Personally, I think atheists are dumb.
They claim to know the unknowable.
Agnosticism is the only logical position.
In fact the whole premise that you can't dismiss something because you can't prove it doesn't exist is completely illogical.
Nope. I thankfully don't have that hole. Kids, work, family and sex keep the hole filled. Forgive the pun.ATG wrote:
Do you have one?
That empty space in your heart that nothing can fill.
god only complicates things. Your better looking inwards at yourself if their is a hole that needs filled. People look to god when they can't work shit out in their own head. If their is something about themselves or life they can't get their head round then its easy to presume that gods got something to do with it.
You have to believe that Christ is the ressurected Messiah and both the Son and a part of God. Not just ask for forgiveness on your deathbed. You also have to be sincere.Ataronchronon wrote:
God/Jesus supposedly lets anyone willing to be cleansed of his/her sins into heaven.Flecco wrote:
Well you could miss out on an eternity in heaven.Ataronchronon wrote:
What could I possibly miss out on by not believing in God?
Who says life needs to have been ordained by a higher power in order for it to have meaning?
Enlightenment.
This insane feeling that the indoctrination can give you, almost like being drunk on something all the time. That sort of thing m8.
Spoiler (highlight to read):
I'm not religious. I've tried it though. Taken Christianity for a test drive. Idk maybe Judaism or Islam would suit me better. I'm also curious about the religions from the subcontinent but idk... I think if I am religious its a religion of the book kinda thing.
Just...... I keep thinking even if there is a dude up there, is he really all that relevant. Do we need him?
Irrational beliefs are hardly enlightening.
Dunno what indoctrination is, sorry.
If you're enlightened according to the Christian sense of enlightenment then they aren't irrational beliefs.
Indoctrination: teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.