Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6409|eXtreme to the maX
Straw vetoes Iraq minutes release 

Justice Secretary Jack Straw has vetoed the publication of minutes of key cabinet meetings held in the run-up to the Iraq war in 2003.
He said he would use a clause in the Freedom of Information Act to block the release of details of meetings in which the war's legality was discussed.

Releasing the papers would do "serious damage" to cabinet government, he said, and outweighed public interest needs.
The Information Tribunal ruled last month that they should be published.

They had rejected a government appeal against the Information Commissioner's ruling that the papers be published because decisions taken in the run-up to 2003 invasion of Iraq were "momentous" and controversial.
The government could have appealed against the Information Tribunal's decision in the High Court, but has decided instead to use the ministerial veto for the first time since the Freedom of Information laws came into force.

Mr Straw told MPs he had not taken the decision - which had to be approved by Cabinet - to block the minutes "lightly".
But he said it was "necessary" in the interest of protecting the confidentiality of ministerial discussions which underpinned cabinet government and collective responsibility.

"There is a balance to be struck between openness and maintaining aspects of our structure of democratic government," he said.
"The damage that disclosure of the minutes in this instance would do far outweighs any corresponding public interest in their disclosure."

He was supported by former Lord Chancellor Lord Falconer, who told BBC Radio 4's Today programme that ministers had to be able to be "free and frank" in a "private space": "The critical point is, do you want cabinet government and collective responsibility to continue? We have a well-functioning system."

The Conservatives said the decision was "right" since the release of the minutes would make ministers more reluctant to discuss controversial subjects in future, impeding good government.

However, shadow justice secretary Dominic Grieve said the way the government had handled the issue betrayed its contempt for the FOI legislation it itself introduced.
He also repeated his call for a full-scale public inquiry into the Iraq war, saying the need for this was now "overwhelming".

For the Lib Dems, justice spokesman David Howarth said the decision was "more to do with preventing embarrassment than protecting the system of government".

He said it was in the public's interest to know that the cabinet, as a decision-making body, had "collapsed" in the run-up to war and been supplanted by a handful of key individuals around the then prime minister Tony Blair.

Labour MP Tony Wright said it was a cause of "great regret" that the veto had been used for the first time and would reinforce the impression among the public that there was something that ministers wanted to hide.
The SNP described the move as a "cover-up" and said an inquiry was needed so that lessons could be learnt from the "worst UK foreign policy decision in living memory".

"The public feels it was lied to about the reasons for going to war in Iraq, and those responsible must not be allowed to hide from an inquiry," said its defence spokesman Angus Robertson.
The release of the cabinet minutes would have reopened controversy over then attorney general Lord Goldsmith's legal advice on the war.

On the eve of war, 17 March, Lord Goldsmith's opinion unequivocally saying military action was legal was presented to cabinet, MPs and the military and published.
But after long-running reports that he had changed his mind as the planned invasion approached, his initial lengthy advice given to Mr Blair on 7 March was leaked and then published in 2005.

This advice raised a number of questions and concerns about the possible legality of military action against Iraq without a second UN resolution and was never shown to the cabinet.
Mr Blair defended his decision not to show the cabinet the full advice, saying Lord Goldsmith had attended the cabinet in person and was able to answer any legal questions and explain his view.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7907991.stm
There's no balance as far as I'm concerned, its in the past, if Blair fudged the legality and misled the cabinet about the legal advice then the country has a right to know.
The people in the cabinet have a right to know precisely what information was really available when they voted to go to war.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-02-26 04:03:14)

Fuck Israel
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6790|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)
Its don and over with, the UK is out by summer and what are they going to do to Blair? Nothing. The Queen will give him a get outta jail free card and 100mil is wasted on the whole event.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7069|Cambridge (UK)

SgtHeihn wrote:

100mil is wasted on the whole event.
That's a pretty damn good reason right there.

And that's without going into things like freedom of information, the democratic process, etc, etc...
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6968|NT, like Mick Dundee

Scorpion0x17 wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

100mil is wasted on the whole event.
That's a pretty damn good reason right there.

And that's without going into things like freedom of information, the democratic process, etc, etc...
He meant 100mil on the release and fallout of the reasons.

Add in the cost of the Iraq war, and it'd be bigger. Though they could just write it off as a training excersise or something.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6456|what

SgtHeihn wrote:

Its don and over with, the UK is out by summer and what are they going to do to Blair? Nothing. The Queen will give him a get outta jail free card and
Bush gave him a medal.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6924|London, England
Westminster cocks doing what they can to probably save their very own lives
Macbeth
Banned
+2,444|5889

AussieReaper wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

Its don and over with, the UK is out by summer and what are they going to do to Blair? Nothing. The Queen will give him a get outta jail free card and
Bush gave him a medal.
That was actually pretty funny when it happened. A former foreign head of state getting a medal from the leader of the U.S. Kinda confirmed the theory that Blair was taking orders from Bush the last few years. In the symbolic way.
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6456|what

Macbeth wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

SgtHeihn wrote:

Its don and over with, the UK is out by summer and what are they going to do to Blair? Nothing. The Queen will give him a get outta jail free card and
Bush gave him a medal.
That was actually pretty funny when it happened. A former foreign head of state getting a medal from the leader of the U.S. Kinda confirmed the theory that Blair was taking orders from Bush the last few years. In the symbolic way.
He also gave the medal to our ex-PM in the same presentation. Medal of "Freedom" lol
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6409|eXtreme to the maX
And Israel gave him $1m.
Funny that.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7893500.stm
Fuck Israel
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6968|NT, like Mick Dundee

Dilbert, I've heard rumours that Israel had contributed to Kevin Rudd's campaign fund. Haven't found anything when I went looking, but then again I just did some light googling. Still, w/e. Not like it matters now. He's riding one hell of an approval rating.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6526|Escea

I don't really see what difference letting you know would make. Besides why would you need to know in the first place? Not like you can change anything anyway.
destruktion_6143
Was ist Loos?
+154|6930|Canada

M.O.A.B wrote:

I don't really see what difference letting you know would make. Besides why would you need to know in the first place? Not like you can change anything anyway.
its the principle of it.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6526|Escea

destruktion_6143 wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

I don't really see what difference letting you know would make. Besides why would you need to know in the first place? Not like you can change anything anyway.
its the principle of it.
Which would be? There's no other reason for wanting to know other than to add more to the complaining pile about something that has already been done and cannot be changed.
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6924|London, England
Yeah, turn a blind eye to one of the biggest mistakes ever made and just forget about it because it's already been done and cannot be changed. I know it's different for you, because you probably actually supported the Iraq War, knowing the type of person you are, so for you I guess it would be easy to turn the other cheek and just ignore it. But for most of us I'd say it's different.

The principle is that knowing would lead to perhaps the same mistake not being made, for at least a reasonable time, also knowing exactly what happened so that the appropriate people can be at least called out for their actions.

Again, obviously this doesn't apply to you, but I'm just saying.
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7066|d

Mekstizzle wrote:

Yeah, turn a blind eye to one of the biggest mistakes ever made and just forget about it because it's already been done and cannot be changed. I know it's different for you, because you probably actually supported the Iraq War, knowing the type of person you are, so for you I guess it would be easy to turn the other cheek and just ignore it. But for most of us I'd say it's different.

The principle is that knowing would lead to perhaps the same mistake not being made, for at least a reasonable time, also knowing exactly what happened so that the appropriate people can be at least called out for their actions.

Again, obviously this doesn't apply to you, but I'm just saying.
+!
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6526|Escea

Mekstizzle wrote:

Yeah, turn a blind eye to one of the biggest mistakes ever made and just forget about it because it's already been done and cannot be changed. I know it's different for you, because you probably actually supported the Iraq War, knowing the type of person you are, so for you I guess it would be easy to turn the other cheek and just ignore it. But for most of us I'd say it's different.

The principle is that knowing would lead to perhaps the same mistake not being made, for at least a reasonable time, also knowing exactly what happened so that the appropriate people can be at least called out for their actions.

Again, obviously this doesn't apply to you, but I'm just saying.
Yeah, I was in support of the war and a warmongerer, good attempt but wrong. I support the soldiers who fight the war, I don't care what it was about or why it happened, it just did and voicing my opinion about it wouldn't do shit. The people who will learn the mistakes made from the information are the ones in the high positions that actually decide what goes on. The government decides it is a need to know basis and the public doesn't need to know.
Snake
Missing, Presumed Dead
+1,046|6869|England

At first, I thought Straw was just being a cunt and blocking the truth (which we can all pretty much assume by now anyway), but looking into it more, I think he's done the right thing.

Cabinet meetings are different, in that they involve the highest level discussions regarding national security, talk about other countries, etc, which, if leaked or let into the public domain; could seriously affect our relations with other countries. Which is why, certain information even from WW2, is now only being released in the recent years.

However, the freedom of information act does allow it. If anyone watched Question Time on Thursday (don't ask, I have a strange liking for it ), the Labour MP, forget his name, basically said that when the Freedom of Information Act was introduced, "they never thought people would ask for minutes of cabinet meetings".

Yeah, bollocks.

Its a loophole, which until now, hasn't been discovered/exploited (as far as I know). So, whereas the FoI Act allows it, it could potentially be damaging to us, as a country (and allies), due to the sensitivity of some of the material involved.

Government transparency is a complete illusion, because of the sake of national security and state secrets, which need to remain hidden from the public eyes for, which I believe, to be obvious reasons. There has to be a cut-off point of what can/cannot be allowed out, but because we cannot trust politicians, we demand to know everything.

Anyway, even if we did find out, then what else would the World debate...
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6526|Escea

Snake wrote:

At first, I thought Straw was just being a cunt and blocking the truth (which we can all pretty much assume by now anyway), but looking into it more, I think he's done the right thing.

Cabinet meetings are different, in that they involve the highest level discussions regarding national security, talk about other countries, etc, which, if leaked or let into the public domain; could seriously affect our relations with other countries. Which is why, certain information even from WW2, is now only being released in the recent years.

However, the freedom of information act does allow it. If anyone watched Question Time on Thursday (don't ask, I have a strange liking for it ), the Labour MP, forget his name, basically said that when the Freedom of Information Act was introduced, "they never thought people would ask for minutes of cabinet meetings".

Yeah, bollocks.

Its a loophole, which until now, hasn't been discovered/exploited (as far as I know). So, whereas the FoI Act allows it, it could potentially be damaging to us, as a country (and allies), due to the sensitivity of some of the material involved.

Government transparency is a complete illusion, because of the sake of national security and state secrets, which need to remain hidden from the public eyes for, which I believe, to be obvious reasons. There has to be a cut-off point of what can/cannot be allowed out, but because we cannot trust politicians, we demand to know everything.

Anyway, even if we did find out, then what else would the World debate...
Prices of socks tbh
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6714|'Murka

Mekstizzle wrote:

Yeah, turn a blind eye to one of the biggest mistakes ever made and just forget about it because it's already been done and cannot be changed. I know it's different for you, because you probably actually supported the Iraq War, knowing the type of person you are, so for you I guess it would be easy to turn the other cheek and just ignore it. But for most of us I'd say it's different.

The principle is that knowing would lead to perhaps the same mistake not being made, for at least a reasonable time, also knowing exactly what happened so that the appropriate people can be at least called out for their actions.

Again, obviously this doesn't apply to you, but I'm just saying.
You have a woefully myopic view of history if you think the Iraq War was one of "the biggest mistakes ever made".

However, I do agree that objective analysis of what happened to lead up to the war, both causal and contributing factors, would help us keep from making that mistake again.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein

Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6974|UK

M.O.A.B wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Yeah, turn a blind eye to one of the biggest mistakes ever made and just forget about it because it's already been done and cannot be changed. I know it's different for you, because you probably actually supported the Iraq War, knowing the type of person you are, so for you I guess it would be easy to turn the other cheek and just ignore it. But for most of us I'd say it's different.

The principle is that knowing would lead to perhaps the same mistake not being made, for at least a reasonable time, also knowing exactly what happened so that the appropriate people can be at least called out for their actions.

Again, obviously this doesn't apply to you, but I'm just saying.
Yeah, I was in support of the war and a warmongerer, good attempt but wrong. I support the soldiers who fight the war, I don't care what it was about or why it happened, it just did and voicing my opinion about it wouldn't do shit. The people who will learn the mistakes made from the information are the ones in the high positions that actually decide what goes on. The government decides it is a need to know basis and the public doesn't need to know.
Then that would make it a dictatorship.  The public put the government there, it has every right to know what decisions are being made in their interests.  You know democracy and all that good stuff.

I am astonished went as far as you're on a need to know basis crap.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6526|Escea

m3thod wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Mekstizzle wrote:

Yeah, turn a blind eye to one of the biggest mistakes ever made and just forget about it because it's already been done and cannot be changed. I know it's different for you, because you probably actually supported the Iraq War, knowing the type of person you are, so for you I guess it would be easy to turn the other cheek and just ignore it. But for most of us I'd say it's different.

The principle is that knowing would lead to perhaps the same mistake not being made, for at least a reasonable time, also knowing exactly what happened so that the appropriate people can be at least called out for their actions.

Again, obviously this doesn't apply to you, but I'm just saying.
Yeah, I was in support of the war and a warmongerer, good attempt but wrong. I support the soldiers who fight the war, I don't care what it was about or why it happened, it just did and voicing my opinion about it wouldn't do shit. The people who will learn the mistakes made from the information are the ones in the high positions that actually decide what goes on. The government decides it is a need to know basis and the public doesn't need to know.
Then that would make it a dictatorship.  The public put the government there, it has every right to know what decisions are being made in their interests.  You know democracy and all that good stuff.

I am astonished went as far as you're on a need to know basis crap.
Right ok, so how about we reveal the locations of our nuclear weapons? Seeing as the need to know basis is a load of crap.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6974|UK

M.O.A.B wrote:

m3thod wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:


Yeah, I was in support of the war and a warmongerer, good attempt but wrong. I support the soldiers who fight the war, I don't care what it was about or why it happened, it just did and voicing my opinion about it wouldn't do shit. The people who will learn the mistakes made from the information are the ones in the high positions that actually decide what goes on. The government decides it is a need to know basis and the public doesn't need to know.
Then that would make it a dictatorship.  The public put the government there, it has every right to know what decisions are being made in their interests.  You know democracy and all that good stuff.

I am astonished went as far as you're on a need to know basis crap.
Right ok, so how about we reveal the locations of our nuclear weapons? Seeing as the need to know basis is a load of crap.
Way to keep things in perspective warmonger.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6526|Escea

m3thod wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

m3thod wrote:


Then that would make it a dictatorship.  The public put the government there, it has every right to know what decisions are being made in their interests.  You know democracy and all that good stuff.

I am astonished went as far as you're on a need to know basis crap.
Right ok, so how about we reveal the locations of our nuclear weapons? Seeing as the need to know basis is a load of crap.
Way to keep things in perspective warmonger.
Boo hoo.

Point being, you want to know everything the government is doing, all of their decisions, every conversation that goes on behind closed doors. If you want all that because of the freedom of information act (despite many being about national securtiy and highly sensitive issues) then why don't we release all information regarding classified military tech, locations of weapons, operations designed to take down any cells operating in the country or prevent possible acts of terrorism? Seeing as the public needs to know every intricate detail of every subject otherwise its a dictatorship.

Like I said, there are some things to know and others to to not know and this is one of them. The people who will make the decision to avoid future mistakes are the ones who will see all of this information, not the average Joe who isn't in charge of the entire country. Live with it.
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6974|UK

M.O.A.B wrote:

m3thod wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

Right ok, so how about we reveal the locations of our nuclear weapons? Seeing as the need to know basis is a load of crap.
Way to keep things in perspective warmonger.
Boo hoo.

Point being, you want to know everything the government is doing, all of their decisions, every conversation that goes on behind closed doors. If you want all that because of the freedom of information act (despite many being about national securtiy and highly sensitive issues) then why don't we release all information regarding classified military tech, locations of weapons, operations designed to take down any cells operating in the country or prevent possible acts of terrorism? Seeing as the public needs to know every intricate detail of every subject otherwise its a dictatorship.

Like I said, there are some things to know and others to to not know and this is one of them. The people who will make the decision to avoid future mistakes are the ones who will see all of this information, not the average Joe who isn't in charge of the entire country. Live with it.
yadda yadda yadda drama queen. 

There is a clear and defined reason why the UK's nuclear stockpile is keep out of the public domain and always will be. MAD is not going to change anytime soon.  So it makes sense to keep it mum.

There is a no clear and defined reason why the details of legality with respective of the iraq war is being kept of the public domain.  Especially considering Lord Goldmith initial response to the UK government was it: ILLEGAL.  We are all now aware WMD's and Iraq supposed association with AQ was horsehit, the circumstances have changed.  So, why not? Let's see the reasons.  There is no threat anymore, the reasons were a crock, what's the problem?

Details of our nuclear stash and most of your other wank is NOT comparable to the details surrounding the legality of the Iraq war.

Last edited by m3thod (2009-03-01 08:24:46)

Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6526|Escea

m3thod wrote:

M.O.A.B wrote:

m3thod wrote:


Way to keep things in perspective warmonger.
Boo hoo.

Point being, you want to know everything the government is doing, all of their decisions, every conversation that goes on behind closed doors. If you want all that because of the freedom of information act (despite many being about national securtiy and highly sensitive issues) then why don't we release all information regarding classified military tech, locations of weapons, operations designed to take down any cells operating in the country or prevent possible acts of terrorism? Seeing as the public needs to know every intricate detail of every subject otherwise its a dictatorship.

Like I said, there are some things to know and others to to not know and this is one of them. The people who will make the decision to avoid future mistakes are the ones who will see all of this information, not the average Joe who isn't in charge of the entire country. Live with it.
yadda yadda yadda drama queen. 

There is a clear and defined reason why the UK's nuclear stockpile is keep out of the public domain and always will be. MAD is not going to change anytime soon.  So it makes sense to keep it mum.

There is a no clear and defined reason why the details of legality with respective of the iraq war is being kept of the public domain.  Especially considering Lord Goldmith initial response to the UK government was it: ILLEGAL.  We are all now aware WMD's and Iraq supposed association with AQ was horsehit, the circumstances have changed.  So, why not? Let's see the reasons.  There is no threat anymore, the reasons were a crock, what's the problem?

Details of our nuclear stash and most of your other wank is NOT comparable to the details surrounding the legality of the Iraq war.
So if you already know the facts why do you want them confirmed for? What would knowing about the legality do for you and what possible improvement to your daily life will it make? None.
Iraq happened, its done, Tony Blair is gone he's done, the UK is soon pulling out of Iraq and will soon be done. You telling me that the second you got some information given to you about the actual reasons you'll quit your little bitchfest over the same issue that has been discussed more times than whether or not three little green men ploughed into a New Mexico field? Somehow I doubt it.

And you can never know whether there were weapons or not. Saddam had access to chemical materials, he had a nuclear program, there is no way you can say with absolute confidence that he didn't have anything at all. Just because they weren't 'where they were supposed to be' doesn't mean they weren't buried in the middle of the desert.

If the government deems the information unsuitable for pubic viewing, then that's their decision, not yours no matter how much you think you're entitled to know.

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