damn, I was going for that.Poseidon wrote:
the reincarnation of David.P
David P. bitched that the DemoMan is under-powered.Poseidon wrote:
the reincarnation of David.P
And when we consider that the Demo's nerfing was done mostly after Mr. Podedworney was banned, I suspect that he has An-Hero'd by now.
I cant even remember what he complained aboutDoctaStrangelove wrote:
David P. bitched that the DemoMan is under-powered.Poseidon wrote:
the reincarnation of David.P
And when we consider that the Demo's nerfing was done mostly after Mr. Podedworney was banned, I suspect that he has An-Hero'd by now.
just that he complained
_______________________________________________________________________________________________ 
Me neither, really.DoctaStrangelove wrote:
Meh, I've been playing games on the internets for 4 years now. And I still don't know exactly what constitutes skill in video games.DefCon-17 wrote:
I love how much the word "skill" is thrown around out of context in this thread.
I do however know that whether or not something takes skill really doesn't matter as games are supposed to be for fun, and if you care so much about skill then it is because you want to think more highly of yourself as to compensate for your lacking in other areas.
I suppose if you're good with something in a videogame, you're skilled in that area.
I mean honestly. I've heard people say CoD4 is skill-less and easy, then at the same time say that the Sniper in TF2 takes skill? Wut?
All you need to play Sniper in TF2 effectively is good hand-eye coordination and fast reflexes. Same as CoD4.
While stuff like the TF2 Spy does not require insane reflexes or amazing hand-eye coordination, it does take other kinds of "skills".
@ OP:
Demoman and Solly are two of the most skilled and game-deciding classes in the game, pub and "pro" scene, stfu and l2p.
Also, the reason you suck, your experience of TF2 sucks, and your life sucks... is because you fucking play dm_store.
How retarded is it to complain about spawn-camping and 'noobish' behaviour on a custom DM map? Jesus H. Christ. Get a clue.
Demoman and Solly are two of the most skilled and game-deciding classes in the game, pub and "pro" scene, stfu and l2p.
Also, the reason you suck, your experience of TF2 sucks, and your life sucks... is because you fucking play dm_store.
How retarded is it to complain about spawn-camping and 'noobish' behaviour on a custom DM map? Jesus H. Christ. Get a clue.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Demomen are overpowered though, and they definitely don't require much skill. I got a 24 point life as demoman within my first week of playing the game semi-regularily. All I did was spam grenades and mines into congested hallways and got easy points, retreating when necessary to heal to restock ammo. Maybe there is skill in using demomen offensively, but there certainly isn't in normal usage.
Pointless argument. When I played soldier, all I did was spam rockets in the vague direction of the enemy, then retreat back for ammo and health whenever I got hurt. When I played sniper, all I did was sit at the back and shoot at heads in the distance, changing position or running away whenever it got a little heated. When I played medic, all I did was sit back behind the safety of a wall and hold down my mouse. None of that means a fucking thing.
Demomen are skilled, period. Go watch Byte or Boomeh play it in an ETF2L match. OmFGG!!!!! you got a "24-point life" on a public server in your first week of playing? Does that make the entire class inherently noobish, or does it make you a TF2-professional? Dun dun dun! If it wasn't for Soldiers and Demomen, this game would actually lose half of the 'skill' and finesse that it actually does have. If you complain about people that play Demo 'defensively' on pub-servers, i.e. spamming and camping stickies, then learn to fucking play. What more do you want now that stickies are destructible and the pipe bombs have slowly been nerfed into oblivion? They're still "overpowered" to you? Lol, so many striking examples of "L2P" in this thread.
Demomen are skilled, period. Go watch Byte or Boomeh play it in an ETF2L match. OmFGG!!!!! you got a "24-point life" on a public server in your first week of playing? Does that make the entire class inherently noobish, or does it make you a TF2-professional? Dun dun dun! If it wasn't for Soldiers and Demomen, this game would actually lose half of the 'skill' and finesse that it actually does have. If you complain about people that play Demo 'defensively' on pub-servers, i.e. spamming and camping stickies, then learn to fucking play. What more do you want now that stickies are destructible and the pipe bombs have slowly been nerfed into oblivion? They're still "overpowered" to you? Lol, so many striking examples of "L2P" in this thread.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
So how good did you do in those lives? How much did you have to try? The 24 point life I had was absent of any form of exertion or skill on my part. It was nine minutes of shoot explosives into one of two crowded routes towards us, and detonate as quickly as possible to avoid the stickies being destroyed. Sniping at least requires some skill. You have to aim and track targets, and watch for spies. Medic requires intelligent use of the ubercharge. Demoman requires spamming ability, which is something everyone has.
Really, though, what makes demomen truly overpowered is the fact grenade launcher grenades explode on contact. It makes rushing a demoman, as should be the way to kill him, much less effective than it should be. Its hard to miss the grenades at point-blank range, even if it is mindless spamming, and is a very effective defense. Or maybe, is that not the way to counter them? Considering you are so enlightened, you should tell me the proper way to do that.
Additionally, would you care to support your assertion that the game would lose half the skill if the explosive classes were removed? I know its really irrelevant since the discussion is over nerfing, not removal, but I am still very interested to hear your viewpoint on the issue.
Really, though, what makes demomen truly overpowered is the fact grenade launcher grenades explode on contact. It makes rushing a demoman, as should be the way to kill him, much less effective than it should be. Its hard to miss the grenades at point-blank range, even if it is mindless spamming, and is a very effective defense. Or maybe, is that not the way to counter them? Considering you are so enlightened, you should tell me the proper way to do that.
Additionally, would you care to support your assertion that the game would lose half the skill if the explosive classes were removed? I know its really irrelevant since the discussion is over nerfing, not removal, but I am still very interested to hear your viewpoint on the issue.
Support my assertion? Fuck me, go play a league, or actually play an actual PCW/scrim... then come back. The game would be empty without Solly/Demo, dead.
Grenades exploding on contact? Well, how the fuck else are they meant to work? Surely it would be more spammy if they operated on a 'Fire and eventually blow up' basis? The fact they explode on contact gives the Demo some up-front damage capabilities... you know, so they don't have to sit around in narrow-corridors lacing chokepoints with stickies and camping like pubnubs . Pipebombs make rushing a demo-man hard? For someone that seemingly draws much if not all of their opinion from public-server play, you really must suck a lot. Rushing a demo is easy, they are a pretty 'soft' class and will be turned into meaty-chunks by two simple rockets... if you can't manage that without getting hit by 2-3 pipebombs in the process, then uninstall your game.
I'm not going to respond to your first paragraph because it's quite clear that you define and only know of the Demoman's uses and capabilities from playing Dustbowl 24/7 32-man pub servers or something. Just laughable. Don't use words such as "definite" in your posts on the crappiness of Demo's when there is absolutely nothing "definite" or well-informed about your own TF2 experience. As for "how good did you do in those lives? How much did you have to try?", I really have NO response to that. Gauging a class-strength from your best life record... simply wow. And why would you even challenge me to one-up your own awesomeness? Do you really even have a clue?
Grenades exploding on contact? Well, how the fuck else are they meant to work? Surely it would be more spammy if they operated on a 'Fire and eventually blow up' basis? The fact they explode on contact gives the Demo some up-front damage capabilities... you know, so they don't have to sit around in narrow-corridors lacing chokepoints with stickies and camping like pubnubs . Pipebombs make rushing a demo-man hard? For someone that seemingly draws much if not all of their opinion from public-server play, you really must suck a lot. Rushing a demo is easy, they are a pretty 'soft' class and will be turned into meaty-chunks by two simple rockets... if you can't manage that without getting hit by 2-3 pipebombs in the process, then uninstall your game.
I'm not going to respond to your first paragraph because it's quite clear that you define and only know of the Demoman's uses and capabilities from playing Dustbowl 24/7 32-man pub servers or something. Just laughable. Don't use words such as "definite" in your posts on the crappiness of Demo's when there is absolutely nothing "definite" or well-informed about your own TF2 experience. As for "how good did you do in those lives? How much did you have to try?", I really have NO response to that. Gauging a class-strength from your best life record... simply wow. And why would you even challenge me to one-up your own awesomeness? Do you really even have a clue?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
I mostly meant through words. You know, like explaining how the game play would be impacted with the absence of those two classes. Its surely not beyond your mental faculty to do that.Uzique wrote:
Support my assertion? Fuck me, go play a league, or actually play an actual PCW/scrim... then come back. The game would be empty without Solly/Demo, dead.
On timers, like normal grenades. Its clear the grenade launcher is not intended to be a explosive round similar to those fired by a M203 or GP-30. The grenades should act like normal grenades, which go off when the fuse intends it to, not when it hits some object. The illustrate the inconsistency of the gameplay mechanic, consider how the grenades do not explore if they hit someone after they bounce. What makes a character any different than sand or a piece of metal?Grenades exploding on contact? Well, how the fuck else are they meant to work? Surely it would be more spammy if they operated on a 'Fire and eventually blow up' basis?
To address the final question, the do work on that basis already, which means they are spammed. They should just work solely on that basis.
Essentially, you are stating the demoman should have effective long range and short range capabilities? OP much?The fact they explode on contact gives the Demo some up-front damage capabilities... you know, so they don't have to sit around in narrow-corridors lacing chokepoints with stickies and camping like pubnubs.
Notice the assumption I am playing soldier. Try doing that with a scout. It won't work. Try doing that with a pyro, it works only if you time airblasts properly, and even then its iffy due to the lag.Pipebombs make rushing a demo-man hard? For someone that seemingly draws much if not all of their opinion from public-server play, you really must suck a lot. Rushing a demo is easy, they are a pretty 'soft' class and will be turned into meaty-chunks by two simple rockets... if you can't manage that without getting hit by 2-3 pipebombs in the process, then uninstall your game.
Actually, it was in a Gold Rush server with players in the mid 20s, although Gold Rush may be a bit like Dustbowl.I'm not going to respond to your first paragraph because it's quite clear that you define and only know of the Demoman's uses and capabilities from playing Dustbowl 24/7 32-man pub servers or something. Just laughable.
Used once, but I'll concede they are only definitely OP in pub play. The Valve forums agree, as do many other players.Don't use words such as "definite" in your posts on the crappiness of Demo's when there is absolutely nothing "definite" or well-informed about your own TF2 experience.
If you considered the intentions of the questions, you might have seen the purpose was to gauge how effective a class is at killing other classes. Since you said you essentially didn't try, it was a natural question to ascertain how well you did without trying. Gauging class strength against other classes is a good idea from your best round, because ponits are accumulated through killing others or assisting in doing so.As for "how good did you do in those lives? How much did you have to try?", I really have NO response to that. Gauging a class-strength from your best life record... simply wow. And why would you even challenge me to one-up your own awesomeness? Do you really even have a clue?
The purpose was not to ask to one-up in any manner, and its hard to understand why you would think that. You obviously are better than me at this game, so what is the purpose for me in trying to pretend I'm better than you? Seriously, you should put some thought into your arguments before you post. I have a clue; if anyone doesn't, it seems to me that that the individual is you.
Siiigh, since we're employing this age-old Forum technique of QUOTATION BREAKDOWN = INTELLECTUAL SUPREMACY... let's play.
As for 'iffy due to lag', that's not an excuse for anything. It's certainly not an inherent flaw or problem with any class, or server. Learn to connect to a server; learn to get a decent Internet connection; learn to Internetz; learn to play etc.etc...
Soldier and Demoman respectively make up the most versatile and adaptable offensive/defensive classes- both can be turned to either task, both have a decent movement speed in combination with survivability. Both are a Medics best friend, essentially. In a league-match or on any competitive level, a team with only 5 or 6 class choices are usually going to roll with 2-3 Soldiers/Demos. They're the best all-round choice on any map, in any situation, at any task. How would the gameplay be impacted without them? Silly question.nukchebi0 wrote:
I mostly meant through words. You know, like explaining how the game play would be impacted with the absence of those two classes. Its surely not beyond your mental faculty to do that.
So wait, you're trying to justify your whine against pipebombs using real-life references to grenades and explosives? Oh my God. Please don't make subtle jibes at my "mental faculty" and my ability when you're going to discredit yourself with this age-old realism argument. Pipebombs are supposed to explode on a direct-hit, it's the way they were designed. If the Demoman had nothing but timed-explosives and static-stickies, they would be confined to nothing but spamming and defensive camping. Isn't that your main complaint against them? You can't have it both ways- if you want them to actually play with some skill and ability, they need the weapons to suit. Remember the TF2 Beta days, or at least back around then? Pipes exploded on player-contact, whether or not they had rebounded off the floor/walls/other players. They are now tweaked to be suitable; if the demoman can actually aim and has the skills to use the pipes as an offensive weapon, then they should be able to.On timers, like normal grenades. Its clear the grenade launcher is not intended to be a explosive round similar to those fired by a M203 or GP-30. The grenades should act like normal grenades, which go off when the fuse intends it to, not when it hits some object. The illustrate the inconsistency of the gameplay mechanic, consider how the grenades do not explore if they hit someone after they bounce. What makes a character any different than sand or a piece of metal?
How is that OP? Every class in the game has long-range and short-range capabilities... I therefore call that equal footing 'fair', not OP.Essentially, you are stating the demoman should have effective long range and short range capabilities? OP much?
Do I really have to tell you in length how to defeat a Demoman at close-range with every class? Come on now. Scout is ridiculously easy to kill a demo with - they have literally no counter to the speed and evasion of a well-skilled Scout, not even sticky spamming at the floor does the job. Pyro, how is that hard? Set them alight and do as much close-range/ambush damage as possible, then evade and shotgun until dead. Again, they've got to be pretty good at aiming to hit a properly-ambushing Pyro with a pipebomb. Of course there are one hundred hypothetical situations you could come up with to counter any of these: "What if...", "But when...". The only true solution to this little conundrum is you learning to play the game.Notice the assumption I am playing soldier. Try doing that with a scout. It won't work. Try doing that with a pyro, it works only if you time airblasts properly, and even then its iffy due to the lag.
As for 'iffy due to lag', that's not an excuse for anything. It's certainly not an inherent flaw or problem with any class, or server. Learn to connect to a server; learn to get a decent Internet connection; learn to Internetz; learn to play etc.etc...
Exactly my point. Your impression of Demomen is derived from public-servers that play PL maps and other spamfests. Do you hate Engi's too because they choke-up the cart? Do you hate Snipers because they make the first-stage of Attacking on Goldrush hard? . Demomen in scrims, or in fact on any decently-played CP map, play an entirely different role than the one they serve in public-PL servers, spamming the cart with stickies and so on. It's a different level of skill; one can criticize and complain about anything when it is being played or done in a noobish fashion. Again, learn to play, or at least play the game properly. That's my best advice here.Actually, it was in a Gold Rush server with players in the mid 20s, although Gold Rush may be a bit like Dustbowl.
Lol @ Valve Forums and "many other players". Groups of players will always whine about everything. As for the Valve Forums... aren't they basically an Agony Aunt Internet column or something? I very rarely see anything of worth on the Valve forums, or anything that is genuinely well-informed. Plus, you can never check the integrity or reliability of the people that post there, try checking the league-forums that are actually frequented by real, active and skilled players. That gives you a much better idea of what is right and what is wrong with TF2. The game isn't flawless, but Demomen are not widely regarded as being "definitely OP". Basing your opinion or finding 'back-up' on the Valve Forums is a clear indication of naivety, learn-to-play syndrome, and learn-to-Valve disability.Used once, but I'll concede they are only definitely OP in pub play. The Valve forums agree, as do many other players.
Stop pointlessly convoluting things and stating the obvious. You can phrase it as elaborately as you wish, but you're not furthering any argument by stating "points are accumulated through killing others or assisting in doing so". No wai? Also, your basic assumption is hideously wrong. When I kill another player, it gauges player skill, not class strength. The classes are all fairly balanced and in order; of course 'x' class will beat 'y' class in certain situations, specifically when you play up against their strength. A sniper is going to beat a heavy at long-range, a pyro is going to beat a spy when meeting face-to-face in a narrow corridor. You get my point. You cannot ascertain how good or balanced a class is based on one-on-one encounters in a public server. Ridiculous. Learn to play.If you considered the intentions of the questions, you might have seen the purpose was to gauge how effective a class is at killing other classes. Since you said you essentially didn't try, it was a natural question to ascertain how well you did without trying. Gauging class strength against other classes is a good idea from your best round, because ponits are accumulated through killing others or assisting in doing so.
I'm not going to put thought into my posts until you put actual skill and capability into your gameplay and reasoning. Otherwise my thought and real opinion is wasted on a moron.The purpose was not to ask to one-up in any manner, and its hard to understand why you would think that. You obviously are better than me at this game, so what is the purpose for me in trying to pretend I'm better than you? Seriously, you should put some thought into your arguments before you post. I have a clue; if anyone doesn't, it seems to me that that the individual is you.
Last edited by Uzique (2009-02-23 03:46:13)
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Uzi I remember the beta. Demo and solly raped hard.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
Scout is the most though ;DUzique wrote:
@ OP:
Demoman and Solly are two of the most skilled and game-deciding classes in the game, pub and "pro" scene, stfu and l2p.
Play an official map or a decent custom map other than dm_store.
Lol.Peter wrote:
Scout is the most though ;DUzique wrote:
@ OP:
Demoman and Solly are two of the most skilled and game-deciding classes in the game, pub and "pro" scene, stfu and l2p.
Just, lol.
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
Are people actually arguing about realism in a cartoon game?
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
lol
do you complain in-game aswell?
what do you think of engineers if you think Demoman takes no skill
do you complain in-game aswell?
what do you think of engineers if you think Demoman takes no skill
Stupid fucks with no real argument or skill, yes.FatherTed wrote:
Are people actually arguing about realism in a cartoon game?
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
The irony is the demoman actually takes the most skill to play right since he has to calculate trajectories on the fly and has a decent amount of speed unlike the soldier.
The irony is that every single point he made was absolutely stupid...
libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual. http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/
I have no problem with Demomen anymore. The latest sticky change, reduction in crits, and reduction in random damage of the nades means he's no longer stupidly overpowered, but relatively balanced. Against Scouts and ambushing Pyros he has the disadvantage. Against good Soldiers, Snipers etc he also has the disadvantage.
He also does take quite a bit of skill. There's a big difference between a spamming demoman and a skilled demoman, much like there's a big difference between a skilled soldier and scout and a 'meh' soldier and scout.
The OP's problem is he's playing dm_store. Simple as that. The other thing you're doing completely wrong is running into a Demomans stickies as he shoots the ground and backpedals. It's not mindless panicking, it's strategy. If the other person is stupid enough to run into all the stickies then he will die.
He also does take quite a bit of skill. There's a big difference between a spamming demoman and a skilled demoman, much like there's a big difference between a skilled soldier and scout and a 'meh' soldier and scout.
The OP's problem is he's playing dm_store. Simple as that. The other thing you're doing completely wrong is running into a Demomans stickies as he shoots the ground and backpedals. It's not mindless panicking, it's strategy. If the other person is stupid enough to run into all the stickies then he will die.
Last edited by Spidery_Yoda (2009-02-23 10:46:17)
It takes one rocket to get them all off, or one air blast from the pyro.Finray wrote:
On Payload maps, they cover the bomb in stickys. Anyone who goes near it, boom. This slows the gameplay right down, only way to get around this is to shoot them off, giving the demoman plenty of time to spam their primary grenades at the person shooting the stickys off.
Or how about not just fuckin standing still when you are shooting the stickys off
I am heavy weapons guy, and this is my weapon!
Changing topic because the current one is pointless.
Is it just me or is playing HWG easy mode when it comes to payload maps. Actually, demomen/spies/snipers seem to be the only things that can get me of the cart.
Anybody know if you can shoot stickybombs when they are in flight?
Changing topic because the current one is pointless.
Is it just me or is playing HWG easy mode when it comes to payload maps. Actually, demomen/spies/snipers seem to be the only things that can get me of the cart.
Anybody know if you can shoot stickybombs when they are in flight?
Last edited by Flecco (2009-02-23 13:33:13)
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
I find that if I have a good Medic, yes I can steam through the entire level on the cart.
A lot of the time though all that will happen is you'll meet a few hungry pyros or a sentry and its game over for you or your Medic.
A lot of the time though all that will happen is you'll meet a few hungry pyros or a sentry and its game over for you or your Medic.
Yeah, those too. Still if you have enough heavy/medic combos on the cart not even a sentry or two will stop it.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.