marine, if u were subjected to waterboarding, would you do/say anything to make em stop? or just let them keep doing it bc u wont admit guilt.usmarine wrote:
once again, i dont consider water boarding torture. so you can see my point if you consider that yes?
I'll just leave Hitchens here.
Insert something about America losing it's reputation and something about the perspective of the terrorist and what he's fighting for, verses our
own.
Really don't have it in me right now.
Insert something about America losing it's reputation and something about the perspective of the terrorist and what he's fighting for, verses our
own.
Really don't have it in me right now.
interrogation is designed to go until you break. these guys know we wont kill them. they are not stupid. they know how to play the system.destruktion_6143 wrote:
marine, if u were subjected to waterboarding, would you do/say anything to make em stop? or just let them keep doing it bc u wont admit guilt.usmarine wrote:
once again, i dont consider water boarding torture. so you can see my point if you consider that yes?
lol rly? bc if i were hauled into a secret prison, by the most powerful intelligence agency in the world, i would have no doubt that they can/will kill me and make it all disappearusmarine wrote:
interrogation is designed to go until you break. these guys know we wont kill them. they are not stupid. they know how to play the system.destruktion_6143 wrote:
marine, if u were subjected to waterboarding, would you do/say anything to make em stop? or just let them keep doing it bc u wont admit guilt.usmarine wrote:
once again, i dont consider water boarding torture. so you can see my point if you consider that yes?
They're HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fuck em'!rdx-fx wrote:
So, let me get this straight
Half the time, us Americans are backwards, lazy, illiterate, misanthropic, neanderthal, gun-obsessed, imperialistic savages bent on dominating and killing the noble, peaceful, morally upstanding citizens of the world. Then plundering their resources for our amusement and greed.
The other half of the time, we are told we aren't living up to the lofty ideals and noble intent of our constitution, our laws, or our American Ideals. That we should remember to live up to those same lofty, noble ideals regardless of what depths of depravity our enemies are excused for employing.
So. Which is it? Are we nasty brutal savages worthy of nothing better than beheading at the hands of our betters - or - are we a nation looked up to for our founding principles of equality, fairness, democracy, and willingness to bleed with/for our allies?
Just a little confused as to how the 'Bad Guys' get a pass for horribly vicious acts - but America is damned to hell and oblivion for anything less than the full "5 star hotel and spa treatment" for our enemies.
(Y'know.. beheading journalists, hiding behind civilian populations, chemical warfare genocide of Kurds, execution of dissident writers, invading and annexing Kuwait, lobbing unguided rockets into civilian population areas on purpose, threatening to nuke and/or invade South Korea, threatening to "push Israel into the sea" or "wipe Israel off the map", and little things like ramming civilian airliners into civilian business buildings)
Are you all hypocrites, or is there a reason there's two sets of rules for acceptable conduct?
And, Is America your friend or your enemy? Is the world a better place with our "noble experiment in Liberty & Democracy", or would you rather see us wiped off the face of the Earth, and forgotten as a bad dream?
The Europeans are pissed cause they dont run shit like they used to, so they bash us. This isnt brain surgery!!! Its easy to find fault in the guy/gal/group/company/corporation/country that is #1. We're an easy target cause the USA runs shit PERIOD! Damned if you do damned if you dont type crap. . . . . .
That you're incapable of it.usmarine wrote:
ya thats it.m3thod wrote:
I believe marine belief is if you're a darkie, wearing Nike trainers kitted out with one of those headscarf's the pals wear and anywhere near the vicinity of Iraq then you're should be detained and promptly sent to be waterboarded in the nearest secret CIA prison.mikkel wrote:
Why the hell does it matter what he was detained for?
so...what were you saying about debate again?
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
Yes everyone thinks al-Nashiri is a saintusmarine wrote:
ok. sorry sir.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
@'marine: It's "Innocent until proven guilty", not "Innocent until forced to say 'I did it'".
Born in Saudi Arabia, al-Nashiri travelled to Afghanistan to participate in attacks against the Russians in the region. In 1996 he travelled to Tajikistan and then Jalalabad, where he first met Osama bin Laden.[9] Bin Laden attempted to convince al-Nashiri to join al-Qaeda at this point, but he refused because he found the idea of swearing a loyalty oath to bin Laden to be distasteful. Still, after al-Nashiri travelled to Yemen, he began to consider committing terrorist actions against United States interests.[9]
When he returned to Afghanistan in 1997, he again met bin Laden, but again declined to join in the terrorist group. Instead, he fought with the Taliban against the Afghan Northern Alliance. Still, he assisted in the smuggling of four anti-tank missiles into Saudi Arabia, and helped arrange for a terrorist to get a Yemeni passport. His cousin, Jihad Mohammad Ali al-Makki, was one of the suicide bombers in the 1998 U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya.[9]
-----------
by god this man should be put up for saint status. wtf is wrong with us.
He is still a terrorist, he still needs to go through the due process of the law and confessions/evidence need to gained without torture. It's really not that hard to grasp.
Last edited by m3thod (2009-02-07 01:54:12)
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
You're not a world authority on the classification of torture (thank god) What YOU think is irrelevant and frankly wrong....and so is your point.usmarine wrote:
once again, i dont consider water boarding torture. so you can see my point if you consider that yes?
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
There is discomfort, pain, tiredness, disorientation, fear, fatigue, embarrassment, and exhaustion..m3thod wrote:
You're not a world authority on the classification of torture (thank god) What YOU think is irrelevant and frankly wrong....and so is your point.usmarine wrote:
once again, i dont consider water boarding torture. so you can see my point if you consider that yes?
.. Then there is permanent disability, neurological damage, organ damage, psychiatric disorders...
.. then there's outright destruction of a person's mind, body, and personality.
If you can get over the effects of a "torture" with 15 minutes to yourself, a warm blanket, and a hot cup of Cocoa.. it's not really at the worst of the list of fucked up things that could happen to you.
And, as a minor point - no professional interrogator is going to open up with waterboarding as first attempt. Regardless of bad press and Hollywood stereotypes, step one is really to ask nicely. The majority of all interrogation done by US personnel is (at worst) comparable to going to an intense job interview with a hangover, and being grilled by the guy who's wife you just secretly screwed last night at the bar.
There is a very long continuum between "talk to us, we're trying to save lives here. We're your friend" and Hollywood-Torture-as-interrogation.
The kid caught dead-to-rights with an IED detonator in his hands because the batteries were dead when he pressed the "go to Allah" button - yeah, he's going to get about 15 to 30 minutes of face-time with an interrogator, tops. As soon as it's determined he was an impressionable adolescent male fired up on nothing more than visions of virgins, manhood, and respect - he's not going to get asked much more. He knows jack shit about where Osama lives, and there is no amount of sadistic bullshit that'd change that.
Interrogation is , first and last, being able to ask the right questions and tell when someone is feeding you bullshit for answers. Just like a job interviewer. It's reading people - not eliciting grand confessions from sadistic tortures.
Last edited by rdx-fx (2009-02-07 03:21:15)
Waterboarding and sleep deprivation can cause most of the above, just solitary confinement can do the psychiatric bit... Then there is permanent disability, neurological damage, organ damage, psychiatric disorders..
.. then there's outright destruction of a person's mind, body, and personality.
Its not the point, torture is illegal, if the US President says 'we don't torture' probably better not do it.
If having tortured someone you can't then prosecute someone who is pretty clearly guilty then whats the point?
Its not as if the average footsoldier has a bundle of intel, even the big fish aren't that useful - as soon as its know they are captured any organisation would change their plans and procedures rendering the intel they do have useless.
Personally I think Guantanamo and all the other sites, including abu Ghraib, were Rumsfeld and Cheney being sadistic vindictive little shits and to cover their own failure.
Русский военный корабль, иди на хуй!
Given that the reporter who went through it said that he still got panicking sensations when his heart rate went up, I'd say it's a lot more psychologically damaging than physically. That doesn't mean it's not torture.rdx-fx wrote:
There is discomfort, pain, tiredness, disorientation, fear, fatigue, embarrassment, and exhaustion..m3thod wrote:
You're not a world authority on the classification of torture (thank god) What YOU think is irrelevant and frankly wrong....and so is your point.usmarine wrote:
once again, i dont consider water boarding torture. so you can see my point if you consider that yes?
.. Then there is permanent disability, neurological damage, organ damage, psychiatric disorders...
.. then there's outright destruction of a person's mind, body, and personality.
If you can get over the effects of a "torture" with 15 minutes to yourself, a warm blanket, and a hot cup of Cocoa.. it's not really at the worst of the list of fucked up things that could happen to you.
And, as a minor point - no professional interrogator is going to open up with waterboarding as first attempt. Regardless of bad press and Hollywood stereotypes, step one is really to ask nicely. The majority of all interrogation done by US personnel is (at worst) comparable to going to an intense job interview with a hangover, and being grilled by the guy who's wife you just secretly screwed last night at the bar.
There is a very long continuum between "talk to us, we're trying to save lives here. We're your friend" and Hollywood-Torture-as-interrogation.
The kid caught dead-to-rights with an IED detonator in his hands because the batteries were dead when he pressed the "go to Allah" button - yeah, he's going to get about 15 to 30 minutes of face-time with an interrogator, tops. As soon as it's determined he was an impressionable adolescent male fired up on nothing more than visions of virgins, manhood, and respect - he's not going to get asked much more. He knows jack shit about where Osama lives, and there is no amount of sadistic bullshit that'd change that.
Interrogation is , first and last, being able to ask the right questions and tell when someone is feeding you bullshit for answers. Just like a job interviewer. It's reading people - not eliciting grand confessions from sadistic tortures.
How stupid do you think your own country is to do something like that, maybe, at least clearly not stupider than you because you can't even read.SealXo wrote:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090206/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/obama_guantanamo
this guy killed 17 people and is gunna get to go home - so cash.
Your own article wrote:
Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said Crawford withdrew the charges against al-Nashiri. However, new charges can be brought again later, and al-Nashiri will remain in prison for the time being.
Your own article wrote:
Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said Crawford withdrew the charges against al-Nashiri. However, new charges can be brought again later, and al-Nashiri will remain in prison for the time being.
Your own article wrote:
Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said Crawford withdrew the charges against al-Nashiri. However, new charges can be brought again later, and al-Nashiri will remain in prison for the time being.
---Your own article wrote:
Pentagon spokesman Geoff Morrell said Crawford withdrew the charges against al-Nashiri. However, new charges can be brought again later, and al-Nashiri will remain in prison for the time being.
I just think they want to do it in a way that doesn't take the piss out of the justice system, I'm guessing 99% chance he'll still get nabbed. No need to sensationalise on the basis that you dislike the person making the decisions purely because of partisan party politics, that's just lame.
The only reason there is a WoT is because we hold the moral upper ground. It's better to keep it that way.
so that's debate? oic. thank you sir.m3thod wrote:
You're not a world authority on the classification of torture (thank god) What YOU think is irrelevant and frankly wrong....and so is your point.usmarine wrote:
once again, i dont consider water boarding torture. so you can see my point if you consider that yes?
you are not a terrorist. they know they can beat us by playing against our rules and laws. they won again with this story.destruktion_6143 wrote:
lol rly? bc if i were hauled into a secret prison, by the most powerful intelligence agency in the world, i would have no doubt that they can/will kill me and make it all disappear
huh? you will never win that way skittles. never.Mekstizzle wrote:
The only reason there is a WoT is because we hold the moral upper ground. It's better to keep it that way.
As per usual, this thread is filled with ridiculously hyperbolic retorts suggesting that acting to the standards that we pride ourselves on keeping, the standards that supposedly make us better than the scum of the planet that opposes us, isn't something we should do.
Also as usual, there are also posts like this.
How STUPID do you have to be to not realise that asymmetrical morals and conduct results in asymmetrical treatment and conditions? "Durr, we're better than these people, but let's treat them the same way they treat us, and be precisely like them." What, then, is it that's supposed to make us better? What happened to the idea of morally and humanely superior civilised societies? When push comes to shove, you guys sure are proving that you aren't living up to those ideals.
Also as usual, there are also posts like this.
Posts in which the author groups people up because they look/think/sound alike, and attributes them all with the same ideals and the same opinions, and then tries to call them out on hypocrisy. The only thing you achieve by doing this is showing that you have absolutely no relevant criticism, and you need to attribute to them opinions that they may not have in order to conjure up the tired old "hypocrisy" defence. Generalisation, and arbitrary characterisation to suit whichever personal criticism you feel like dishing out, regardless of the actual circumstances. Trench warfare for the sake of warfare.rdx-fx wrote:
So, let me get this straight
Half the time, us Americans are backwards, lazy, illiterate, misanthropic, neanderthal, gun-obsessed, imperialistic savages bent on dominating and killing the noble, peaceful, morally upstanding citizens of the world. Then plundering their resources for our amusement and greed.
The other half of the time, we are told we aren't living up to the lofty ideals and noble intent of our constitution, our laws, or our American Ideals. That we should remember to live up to those same lofty, noble ideals regardless of what depths of depravity our enemies are excused for employing.
So. Which is it? Are we nasty brutal savages worthy of nothing better than beheading at the hands of our betters - or - are we a nation looked up to for our founding principles of equality, fairness, democracy, and willingness to bleed with/for our allies?
Just a little confused as to how the 'Bad Guys' get a pass for horribly vicious acts - but America is damned to hell and oblivion for anything less than the full "5 star hotel and spa treatment" for our enemies.
(Y'know.. beheading journalists, hiding behind civilian populations, chemical warfare genocide of Kurds, execution of dissident writers, invading and annexing Kuwait, lobbing unguided rockets into civilian population areas on purpose, threatening to nuke and/or invade South Korea, threatening to "push Israel into the sea" or "wipe Israel off the map", and little things like ramming civilian airliners into civilian business buildings)
Are you all hypocrites, or is there a reason there's two sets of rules for acceptable conduct?
And, Is America your friend or your enemy? Is the world a better place with our "noble experiment in Liberty & Democracy", or would you rather see us wiped off the face of the Earth, and forgotten as a bad dream?
How STUPID do you have to be to not realise that asymmetrical morals and conduct results in asymmetrical treatment and conditions? "Durr, we're better than these people, but let's treat them the same way they treat us, and be precisely like them." What, then, is it that's supposed to make us better? What happened to the idea of morally and humanely superior civilised societies? When push comes to shove, you guys sure are proving that you aren't living up to those ideals.
Last edited by mikkel (2009-02-07 09:31:54)
Along with imprisonment, did Obama guarantee a pardon for those held at Guantanamo? Did he guarantee lack of judgement? Punishment? Whats to say hes just not going to have the CIA deal with pre-911 terrorists? A .308 is cheaper than a trial...
Well debate it genuis. Convince me why waterboarding should not be classified as torture. You and your fellow jarheads don't seem to think so but the rest of the world does.usmarine wrote:
so that's debate? oic. thank you sir.m3thod wrote:
You're not a world authority on the classification of torture (thank god) What YOU think is irrelevant and frankly wrong....and so is your point.usmarine wrote:
once again, i dont consider water boarding torture. so you can see my point if you consider that yes?
As ever you refuse to go into any particular detail and assert what you think without any conviction. Usual crap.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
So to win the War on Terror (unachieveable anyway) we have to behave like terrorists?usmarine wrote:
huh? you will never win that way skittles. never.Mekstizzle wrote:
The only reason there is a WoT is because we hold the moral upper ground. It's better to keep it that way.
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
usmarine wrote:
water boarding is not even close, not by a long shot, to what they do. so please stop with the drama dude.
Your opinion is pretty much irrelevant. It is legally defined as torture and that is what counts. Your views on that either way make not one iota of difference to the legal classification.usmarine wrote:
once again, i dont consider water boarding torture. so you can see my point if you consider that yes?
In any case, inmates at Gitmo have been tortured to fit any definition of torture - even yours.
If you want prosecutions you have to go by the book. This guy may well be guilty. But now the whole case against him has been destroyed by some stupid interogators and he will go free. Yet another reason not to use torture.
Let's try to get a few things straight. Not every guy was tortured in Guantanamo. I may be wrong because I don't troll every morning looking for anti-US bs like some people here. But from what I know, there have been a few incidents and as far as I know, it is being watched a lot more closely. So let's not bunch everything into one nice "America tortures" package.
In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, I think that if and when someone has been tortured, it comes down to the interrogators going too far, rather than government wide conspiracy and I will say that none of you know or will ever know what has exactly happened. To be honest, you are judging based internet news and articles and we all know that is idiotic. None of you know shit about the real case, the real characters and to be honest, none of you know exactly how the intel was obtained.
I know that you guys expect America to be the "bigger" person when it comes to war and torture, but I find it ridiculous that we are focused on so much that we forget countries and governments that are doing things a thousand times worse than we ever have or could. Just take a look around. People are being starved, tortured, mutilated, stoned, beheaded, running for their lives in many parts of the world and yet all I ever hear is the same people crying about a few guys who were "tortured" and water boarded, which could easily debated as not being torture.
I bet that there have been severe interrogations that are and still legal that have saved lives. I am sure that torture has made men speak and as a result saved lives as well. Will we ever know statistically how much it works? I have no idea and I am sure none of you do either. NO ONE can say that it works or not UNLESS you are the ones doing it, used it and see the information gained from it. Again, none of you really know squat.
In my opinion, if a friend or family or any person is saved, a bombing is stopped, a terrorist act is thwarted through interrogations, severe or not, then I say, do what needs to be done to stop the next act. Its funny in one respect, when an attack does happen, we get blamed for not doing enough but when its been silent for the last 8 years....we are evil doers bent on torturing everyone and their uncle. If a few guys have been tortured and the result is that we haven't been attacked, then I would say something IS being done right.
I do not condone torture, but the worst I have heard is water boarding and if that is the worst our interrogators are doing then honestly, quit crying about America. We are not burning, using power screw drivers, pulling out fingernails or chopping off fingers. We are not starving or mutilating people and by the way, we allow medical and advocates to come in to talk to these people quite often as far as I know. Again, a few doesn't make EVERYONE tortured and I believe that we do stand on a higher ground than most. Don't act like your shit don't stink either, if you get my drift.
In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, I think that if and when someone has been tortured, it comes down to the interrogators going too far, rather than government wide conspiracy and I will say that none of you know or will ever know what has exactly happened. To be honest, you are judging based internet news and articles and we all know that is idiotic. None of you know shit about the real case, the real characters and to be honest, none of you know exactly how the intel was obtained.
I know that you guys expect America to be the "bigger" person when it comes to war and torture, but I find it ridiculous that we are focused on so much that we forget countries and governments that are doing things a thousand times worse than we ever have or could. Just take a look around. People are being starved, tortured, mutilated, stoned, beheaded, running for their lives in many parts of the world and yet all I ever hear is the same people crying about a few guys who were "tortured" and water boarded, which could easily debated as not being torture.
I bet that there have been severe interrogations that are and still legal that have saved lives. I am sure that torture has made men speak and as a result saved lives as well. Will we ever know statistically how much it works? I have no idea and I am sure none of you do either. NO ONE can say that it works or not UNLESS you are the ones doing it, used it and see the information gained from it. Again, none of you really know squat.
In my opinion, if a friend or family or any person is saved, a bombing is stopped, a terrorist act is thwarted through interrogations, severe or not, then I say, do what needs to be done to stop the next act. Its funny in one respect, when an attack does happen, we get blamed for not doing enough but when its been silent for the last 8 years....we are evil doers bent on torturing everyone and their uncle. If a few guys have been tortured and the result is that we haven't been attacked, then I would say something IS being done right.
I do not condone torture, but the worst I have heard is water boarding and if that is the worst our interrogators are doing then honestly, quit crying about America. We are not burning, using power screw drivers, pulling out fingernails or chopping off fingers. We are not starving or mutilating people and by the way, we allow medical and advocates to come in to talk to these people quite often as far as I know. Again, a few doesn't make EVERYONE tortured and I believe that we do stand on a higher ground than most. Don't act like your shit don't stink either, if you get my drift.
Well, the reason the US is scrutinised more is because firstly it's the most important player in the world. Secondly, it portrays itself as a bastion of freedom, hope and liberty etc etc.. so again, it gets scrutinised more when it does shit like torture and it's probably the biggest reason. People just don't like to see the hypocrisy.
One person being tortured is too many.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
Let's try to get a few things straight. Not every guy was tortured in Guantanamo. I may be wrong because I don't troll every morning looking for anti-US bs like some people here. But from what I know, there have been a few incidents and as far as I know, it is being watched a lot more closely. So let's not bunch everything into one nice "America tortures" package.
I completely disagree. It is not due to the interogators going too far. The torture of Gitmo inmates can be demonstrated to be highly orchestrated. Rendition flights, where detainees have been flown to places like Morocco to be tortured in extreme and unpleasant ways involving cutting them up, have clearly been planned and approved by people in at least moderately senior positions. The recent example of the British high courts being pressured into not releasing evidence that the judges who investigated the case claim demonstrated a detainee had been tortured solidly supports this assertion. His claims are that he was flown out to Morocco and Afghanistan where incisions were made in his chest and penis and a burning liquid poured into the wounds. That is torture by anyones definition and is not just a case of an interogator getting carried away.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, I think that if and when someone has been tortured, it comes down to the interrogators going too far, rather than government wide conspiracy and I will say that none of you know or will ever know what has exactly happened. To be honest, you are judging based internet news and articles and we all know that is idiotic. None of you know shit about the real case, the real characters and to be honest, none of you know exactly how the intel was obtained.
If by "be the bigger person" you mean actually follow the rules - then yes. I do. All properly civilised nations should do so. Those that do not cannot truly claim to be civilised.DeathBecomesYu wrote:
I know that you guys expect America to be the "bigger" person when it comes to war and torture, but I find it ridiculous that we are focused on so much that we forget countries and governments that are doing things a thousand times worse than we ever have or could. Just take a look around. People are being starved, tortured, mutilated, stoned, beheaded, running for their lives in many parts of the world and yet all I ever hear is the same people crying about a few guys who were "tortured" and water boarded, which could easily debated as not being torture.
I bet that there have been severe interrogations that are and still legal that have saved lives. I am sure that torture has made men speak and as a result saved lives as well. Will we ever know statistically how much it works? I have no idea and I am sure none of you do either. NO ONE can say that it works or not UNLESS you are the ones doing it, used it and see the information gained from it. Again, none of you really know squat.
As for torture not working, none of us (no one on this forum) know anything about how effective it is. We can only speculate. The fact is that the concensus amongst experts in the field is that it doesn't work to provide accurate intel.
You start one paragraph by condoning torture and then the second by saying you don't condone torture. Which is it?DeathBecomesYu wrote:
In my opinion, if a friend or family or any person is saved, a bombing is stopped, a terrorist act is thwarted through interrogations, severe or not, then I say, do what needs to be done to stop the next act. Its funny in one respect, when an attack does happen, we get blamed for not doing enough but when its been silent for the last 8 years....we are evil doers bent on torturing everyone and their uncle. If a few guys have been tortured and the result is that we haven't been attacked, then I would say something IS being done right.
I do not condone torture, but the worst I have heard is water boarding and if that is the worst our interrogators are doing then honestly, quit crying about America. We are not burning, using power screw drivers, pulling out fingernails or chopping off fingers. We are not starving or mutilating people and by the way, we allow medical and advocates to come in to talk to these people quite often as far as I know. Again, a few doesn't make EVERYONE tortured and I believe that we do stand on a higher ground than most. Don't act like your shit don't stink either, if you get my drift.
To Bertster
The difference is that I PERSONALLY don't condone it...meaning, I wouldn't do it myself. But again, no one knows EXACTLY what has been done or not and NO ONE can say if it is or isn't effective. Like I said before, the worst anyone has claimed is that there has been water boarding and water boarding in itself can be debated as being torture or not.
I see that you conveniently skipped over the nations and governments doing far worse than a few Americans and their water boarding. I also noticed that you say "properly civilized" nations should act accordingly. I think that is a big double standard. So if you are a country in turmoil, with a government that is corrupt and behind the times...it gives them the right to act like barbarians and continue to starve their people, kill activists, detain opposition leaders, torture by grotesque means, murder, mutilate and generally destroy whole groups of people. Like you said, one tortured person is too much.....well, shouldn't that hold true to any human being, any government???
Seriously, let's debate about far worse situations in this world and lay blame where it should be whether YOU think they are "properly civilized" or not. So i guess that it is okay to be a third world country and not act like people with SOME morals. How does that work again??? Only properly civilized people should be held to standards of human rights???
I have seen videos of women and men being tortured in China and North Korea.....aren't they considered civilized as much as most countries. What about the mass executions in China for being nothing more than against what your government believes in. I wonder what kind of trial they were given and what type of interrogation they received. There are dissidents in China and Cuba who have been held for DECADES without trial. Oh that's right, Cuba is not civilized???? Michael Moore might disagree with you.
Funny, I don't hear anyone here clamoring to talk about people being held without trial far longer than some of these Guantanamo people. Do you know that IRAN is holding and American for the last 2 years........and is now using him as trade bait so that we will release a Iranian special force group caught in Iraq. Ooooops....Iran is not civilized or what? I am sure that there are people in Venezuela who would disagree with you as well. I guess now we have to decide who is a civilized country or not to condone actions against human kind. Really????
If you are going to hold America to a certain standard about water boarding...then I don't give a f@@k if your government is "properly civilized" or not. Do the right thing. If one person is intolerable to you, then what about the rest of the world? What do you consider them? Oh that's right, they aren't properly civilized so it must be okay. Hmmmmm....Okay Obama, let's become a third world country so we can do what the hell we want!!
The difference is that I PERSONALLY don't condone it...meaning, I wouldn't do it myself. But again, no one knows EXACTLY what has been done or not and NO ONE can say if it is or isn't effective. Like I said before, the worst anyone has claimed is that there has been water boarding and water boarding in itself can be debated as being torture or not.
I see that you conveniently skipped over the nations and governments doing far worse than a few Americans and their water boarding. I also noticed that you say "properly civilized" nations should act accordingly. I think that is a big double standard. So if you are a country in turmoil, with a government that is corrupt and behind the times...it gives them the right to act like barbarians and continue to starve their people, kill activists, detain opposition leaders, torture by grotesque means, murder, mutilate and generally destroy whole groups of people. Like you said, one tortured person is too much.....well, shouldn't that hold true to any human being, any government???
Seriously, let's debate about far worse situations in this world and lay blame where it should be whether YOU think they are "properly civilized" or not. So i guess that it is okay to be a third world country and not act like people with SOME morals. How does that work again??? Only properly civilized people should be held to standards of human rights???
I have seen videos of women and men being tortured in China and North Korea.....aren't they considered civilized as much as most countries. What about the mass executions in China for being nothing more than against what your government believes in. I wonder what kind of trial they were given and what type of interrogation they received. There are dissidents in China and Cuba who have been held for DECADES without trial. Oh that's right, Cuba is not civilized???? Michael Moore might disagree with you.
Funny, I don't hear anyone here clamoring to talk about people being held without trial far longer than some of these Guantanamo people. Do you know that IRAN is holding and American for the last 2 years........and is now using him as trade bait so that we will release a Iranian special force group caught in Iraq. Ooooops....Iran is not civilized or what? I am sure that there are people in Venezuela who would disagree with you as well. I guess now we have to decide who is a civilized country or not to condone actions against human kind. Really????
If you are going to hold America to a certain standard about water boarding...then I don't give a f@@k if your government is "properly civilized" or not. Do the right thing. If one person is intolerable to you, then what about the rest of the world? What do you consider them? Oh that's right, they aren't properly civilized so it must be okay. Hmmmmm....Okay Obama, let's become a third world country so we can do what the hell we want!!