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2009-02-05 10:36:48
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7020

m3thod wrote:

andy12 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:


Because torture is no reason at all to speak out?

The fact is the US intelligence services acted reprehensibly, the UK intelligence services were complicit (which whilst not as bad, is still terrible) and the foreign office and US intelligence services have tried to cover it up.


All issues about cover ups aside - this looks like pretty good evidence that Gitmo detainees have been tortured, in a fashion that no sane person can claim is not torture. This sort of behaviour is clearly completely unacceptable.
Torture probably has been used, there are Privates fresh outta Basic that are based there. I think we all know, but we get the best. We get the massive advantage of gaining intel via torture, and we get to deny it and pretend we're morally impeccable. Sweet deal.
Intel gained from torture is unreliable.
Quote for motherfucking truth.

It's like either they just give what they think you want, and they don't know jack in the first place. Most of Gitmo Detainees are just like privates, they don't know jack. It's the higher ranks you gotta capture, sure enough they won't give intel.
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2009-02-05 10:38:47
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7067|d

andy12 wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

andy12 wrote:


Really it's pretty clear and everyone can see it. I don't need to search through your posts for the exact words "I hate America". I don't give a shit, quit being a pussy and admit it or STFU and don't use every thread to insult Americans, got it?
errr.....no i don't "got it". If its so fuking clear, then it can't be that hard to prove it  ? and no, am not asking for those exact words.

You do give a shit, come on now, don't lie to yourself. Insult Americans ? Just because I criticize some of the US governments actions doesn't mean I am insulting Americans. And if you think it does, then you need to leave the D&S Talk section because that what everyone does all day (criticize others).

Also this is a realllllly WILDDDDD guess, but are you from isreal by any chance?

[hide]He's gone say no[/hide]
Uh, you just blamed the American people for what's happening, as if they get a say in everything their Government does... Maybe you should leave the section  if you can't admit what you even believe in...

No I'm not from Israel, why are you?
DUDE, its a fuking forum on the fuking internet. If i hated the US, trust me, i would say it. Do you really think i give a shit what people think of me on this forum ?

Now, like i told parker earlier and if you actually bothered reading this thread you would know this. I have already said, i am not blaming US citizens.

Go on son shine, what makes you think i am blaming the people ? Seems to me, you just say love going around calling people anti-American just because they oppose US policies.

I am yeah, how did you guess ?
2009-02-05 10:41:05
andy12
Banned
+52|6961

mafia996630 wrote:

andy12 wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:


errr.....no i don't "got it". If its so fuking clear, then it can't be that hard to prove it  ? and no, am not asking for those exact words.

You do give a shit, come on now, don't lie to yourself. Insult Americans ? Just because I criticize some of the US governments actions doesn't mean I am insulting Americans. And if you think it does, then you need to leave the D&S Talk section because that what everyone does all day (criticize others).

Also this is a realllllly WILDDDDD guess, but are you from isreal by any chance?

[hide]He's gone say no[/hide]
Uh, you just blamed the American people for what's happening, as if they get a say in everything their Government does... Maybe you should leave the section  if you can't admit what you even believe in...

No I'm not from Israel, why are you?
DUDE, its a fuking forum on the fuking internet. If i hated the US, trust me, i would say it. Do you really think i give a shit what people think of me on this forum ?

Now, like i told parker earlier and if you actually bothered reading this thread you would know this. I have already said, i am not blaming US citizens.

Go on son shine, what makes you think i am blaming the people ? Seems to me, you just say love going around calling people anti-American just because they oppose US policies.

I am yeah, how did you guess ?
There's a "c" in "fucking".

No I don't think you care too much, maybe you don't want to admit it because you'd rather post your drivel here and stating you hate America would get you banned. Either way, I've lost interest.
2009-02-05 10:41:20
m3thod
All kiiiiiiiiinds of gainz
+2,197|6975|UK

andy12 wrote:

m3thod wrote:

andy12 wrote:


Torture probably has been used, there are Privates fresh outta Basic that are based there. I think we all know, but we get the best. We get the massive advantage of gaining intel via torture, and we get to deny it and pretend we're morally impeccable. Sweet deal.
Intel gained from torture is unreliable.
Sometimes, but unless you're an expert you don't know the ratio of unreliable intel:reliable intel.
You know i could type that reponse to anyone and everyone on this forum.  "Unless you're a expert you don't know shit".

So here is some food for thought and maybe some experts:

Another objection is that torture doesn't work. All the literature and experts say that if we really want usable information, we should go exactly the opposite way and try to gain the trust and confidence of the prisoners. Torture will get you information, but it's not reliable. Eventually, if you don't accidentally kill them first, torture victims will tell you something just to make you stop - Rear Admiral (ret.) John Hutson, former Judge Advocate General for the Navy

And torture -- I just don't think it really works. I think it works for the Egyptians, the Syrians, the Saudis, who want to scare the hell out of people. But you don't get the truth. What happens when you torture people is, they figure out what you want to hear and they tell you - Bob Baer, former CIA official

I personally think that any information gotten through extreme methods of torture would probably be pretty useless because it would be someone telling you what you wanted to hear - Michael Scheuer, formerly a senior CIA official in the Counter-Terrorism Center

It?s human nature. People don?t cooperate with you unless they have some reason to." He added, "Brutalization doesn?t work. We know that. Besides, you lose your soul - Dan Coleman, retired FBI agent

And the piece de resistance: Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1:

The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind is prohibited by law and is neither authorized nor condoned by the US Government. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear

Knock yourself out:  http://www.amnestyusa.org/war-on-terror … id=1031036
Blackbelts are just whitebelts who have never quit.
2009-02-05 10:42:04
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7067|d

Cybargs wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

andy12 wrote:


Really it's pretty clear and everyone can see it. I don't need to search through your posts for the exact words "I hate America". I don't give a shit, quit being a pussy and admit it or STFU and don't use every thread to insult Americans, got it?
errr.....no i don't "got it". If its so fuking clear, then it can't be that hard to prove it  ? and no, am not asking for those exact words.

You do give a shit, come on now, don't lie to yourself. Insult Americans ? Just because I criticize some of the US governments actions doesn't mean I am insulting Americans. And if you think it does, then you need to leave the D&S Talk section because that what everyone does all day (criticize others).

Also this is a realllllly WILDDDDD guess, but are you from isreal by any chance?

[hide]He's gone say no[/hide]
We all know you think America is the great satan. stfu.
You need to charm the fuk down. Unless you want to debate, just stay the fuk out of it.

Go on then, back up your words and prove i think America is the great satan.
2009-02-05 10:42:07
ghettoperson
Member
+1,943|6953

andy12 wrote:

m3thod wrote:

andy12 wrote:


Torture probably has been used, there are Privates fresh outta Basic that are based there. I think we all know, but we get the best. We get the massive advantage of gaining intel via torture, and we get to deny it and pretend we're morally impeccable. Sweet deal.
Intel gained from torture is unreliable.
Sometimes, but unless you're an expert you don't know the ratio of unreliable intel:reliable intel.
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you stupid? If someone attached a car battery to my balls, I'd confess to taking Benjamin Franklins virginity. That is why torture is useless.
2009-02-05 10:43:21
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6885|SE London

andy12 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

andy12 wrote:


Torture probably has been used, there are Privates fresh outta Basic that are based there. I think we all know, but we get the best. We get the massive advantage of gaining intel via torture, and we get to deny it and pretend we're morally impeccable. Sweet deal.
The claims are not that he was tortured there. He was flown to Morocco and Afghanistan to be tortured. It's not a case of some inexperienced guards/interogators getting carried away. There was planning that went into this.

I find the attitude that being able to get away with torturing someone as being a sweet deal fairly abhorent tbh.
The people that get tortured deserve it. The reason why we haven't won these 2 wars is because we pussy around now. Back when we had an empire if there was a mutiny we strapped the leaders to cannons and blew them up. That generally worked. If insurgents have nothing to fear from gunning down school children other than a few years in prison they don't give a shit. If they know we are willing to fuck them up for it then they'll think twice.
No, they won't. Torture is not a deterent.

Torture is a medieval practice which experts have found to produce unreliable intel - ie it doesn't work. It is also totally illegal, immoral, uncivilised and has no place in the modern world.
2009-02-05 10:47:04
andy12
Banned
+52|6961

m3thod wrote:

andy12 wrote:

m3thod wrote:


Intel gained from torture is unreliable.
Sometimes, but unless you're an expert you don't know the ratio of unreliable intel:reliable intel.
You know i could type that reponse to anyone and everyone on this forum.  "Unless you're a expert you don't know shit".

So here is some food for thought and maybe some experts:

Another objection is that torture doesn't work. All the literature and experts say that if we really want usable information, we should go exactly the opposite way and try to gain the trust and confidence of the prisoners. Torture will get you information, but it's not reliable. Eventually, if you don't accidentally kill them first, torture victims will tell you something just to make you stop - Rear Admiral (ret.) John Hutson, former Judge Advocate General for the Navy

And torture -- I just don't think it really works. I think it works for the Egyptians, the Syrians, the Saudis, who want to scare the hell out of people. But you don't get the truth. What happens when you torture people is, they figure out what you want to hear and they tell you - Bob Baer, former CIA official

I personally think that any information gotten through extreme methods of torture would probably be pretty useless because it would be someone telling you what you wanted to hear - Michael Scheuer, formerly a senior CIA official in the Counter-Terrorism Center

It?s human nature. People don?t cooperate with you unless they have some reason to." He added, "Brutalization doesn?t work. We know that. Besides, you lose your soul - Dan Coleman, retired FBI agent

And the piece de resistance: Army Field Manual 34-52 Chapter 1:

The use of force, mental torture, threats, insults, or exposure to unpleasant and inhumane treatment of any kind is prohibited by law and is neither authorized nor condoned by the US Government. Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear

Knock yourself out:  http://www.amnestyusa.org/war-on-terror … id=1031036
Only most things on this forum the mere mortals here can debate reasonably. Debating why we should leave Iraq, why we should vote Obama, why we should have gun laws. We all know something about the above and thus can present a reasonable opinion on them. However nobody here has been tortured, nobody knows mentally would they would give away under torture. Anyway...

As much as appealing to insurgents good side is, or handing out treats and sweeties to someone who just blew up a school is I think I'll be pro torture. Meh, if it doesn't get reliable information all the time then it acts as more as a deterrent than "Get captured killing civilians and you can come in for a nice chat and coffee".
2009-02-05 10:49:21
andy12
Banned
+52|6961

ghettoperson wrote:

andy12 wrote:

m3thod wrote:


Intel gained from torture is unreliable.
Sometimes, but unless you're an expert you don't know the ratio of unreliable intel:reliable intel.
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you stupid? If someone attached a car battery to my balls, I'd confess to taking Benjamin Franklins virginity. That is why torture is useless.
Really if it never fucking produces reliable information and has never led to stopping an attack, the positions of insurgents or training camps then why the fuck does the US government pump millions of dollars into Gitmo if it never, ever works? Oh my science...
2009-02-05 10:50:47
Parker
isteal
+1,452|6697|The Gem Saloon
sensory deprivation has proven to yield REAL information....



but i digress....i dont want Mek accusing me of...a hardman complex if i have to defend myself from an anti-semite again
2009-02-05 10:53:23
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|7020

Parker wrote:

sensory deprivation has proven to yield REAL information....



but i digress....i dont want Mek accusing me of...a hardman complex if i have to defend myself from an anti-semite again
And alcohol.
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2009-02-05 10:54:09
M.O.A.B
'Light 'em up!'
+1,220|6526|Escea

Essentially if someone gave you information to avoid something nasty happening to them, you'd find out whether it was true or not by seeing it through. Giving out wrong information is probably not the best way to go about things, particularly when they find out.
2009-02-05 10:58:10
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7067|d

andy12 wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

andy12 wrote:


Uh, you just blamed the American people for what's happening, as if they get a say in everything their Government does... Maybe you should leave the section  if you can't admit what you even believe in...

No I'm not from Israel, why are you?
DUDE, its a fuking forum on the fuking internet. If i hated the US, trust me, i would say it. Do you really think i give a shit what people think of me on this forum ?

Now, like i told parker earlier and if you actually bothered reading this thread you would know this. I have already said, i am not blaming US citizens.

Go on son shine, what makes you think i am blaming the people ? Seems to me, you just say love going around calling people anti-American just because they oppose US policies.

I am yeah, how did you guess ?
There's a "c" in "fucking".

No I don't think you care too much, maybe you don't want to admit it because you'd rather post your drivel here and stating you hate America would get you banned. Either way, I've lost interest.
REALLLY ? ?? OMG!!!!!! : 0 .i didn't know there was a C in fuking.

No i doubt it would get me banned. Why would you think that ? can i get an admin opinion on that, i.e. if i said i hate the US for blah  blah reason. Would that get me banned?


You lost interest because you have nothing on me and you have not been able to post anything related to the OP post. Next time, provide some contribution to the actual thread before you go making bullshit statements.
2009-02-05 11:00:35
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6885|SE London

andy12 wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:

andy12 wrote:


Sometimes, but unless you're an expert you don't know the ratio of unreliable intel:reliable intel.
What the fuck are you talking about? Are you stupid? If someone attached a car battery to my balls, I'd confess to taking Benjamin Franklins virginity. That is why torture is useless.
Really if it never fucking produces reliable information and has never led to stopping an attack, the positions of insurgents or training camps then why the fuck does the US government pump millions of dollars into Gitmo if it never, ever works? Oh my science...
Why did the US declare war on an abstract tactic?

Why did the US invade Iraq as a part of the war on terror?

Who can say. The fact remains, that it is illegal, immoral and, according to the experts, unreliable. A country torturing detainees is not a civilised nation. The US is better than that and should be stepping up and being a shining beacon to the rest of the world - not stooping to torture.

If I was American I would be appalled that my country was behaving in this manner - as I'm sure a vast number of Americans are. I'm disgusted enough at the British governments complicity in this. I would be calling for the impeachment of those responsible for, at the very least, bringing the nation (further) into disrepute.
2009-02-05 11:01:22
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7067|d

Cybargs wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

andy12 wrote:

Really it's pretty clear and everyone can see it. I don't need to search through your posts for the exact words "I hate America". I don't give a shit, quit being a pussy and admit it or STFU and don't use every thread to insult Americans, got it?
errr.....no i don't "got it". If its so fuking clear, then it can't be that hard to prove it  ? and no, am not asking for those exact words.

You do give a shit, come on now, don't lie to yourself. Insult Americans ? Just because I criticize some of the US governments actions doesn't mean I am insulting Americans. And if you think it does, then you need to leave the D&S Talk section because that what everyone does all day (criticize others).

Also this is a realllllly WILDDDDD guess, but are you from isreal by any chance?

[hide]He's gone say no[/hide]
We all know you think America is the great satan. stfu.
Go on then Mr cybargs, back you your claims then ? or are you not able to do that ?

Also you hate America ! I said so and that what makes it true!!! lulz

Last edited by mafia996630 (2009-02-05 11:03:05)

2009-02-05 11:02:45
andy12
Banned
+52|6961

mafia996630 wrote:

andy12 wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:


DUDE, its a fuking forum on the fuking internet. If i hated the US, trust me, i would say it. Do you really think i give a shit what people think of me on this forum ?

Now, like i told parker earlier and if you actually bothered reading this thread you would know this. I have already said, i am not blaming US citizens.

Go on son shine, what makes you think i am blaming the people ? Seems to me, you just say love going around calling people anti-American just because they oppose US policies.

I am yeah, how did you guess ?
There's a "c" in "fucking".

No I don't think you care too much, maybe you don't want to admit it because you'd rather post your drivel here and stating you hate America would get you banned. Either way, I've lost interest.
REALLLY ? ?? OMG!!!!!! : 0 .i didn't know there was a C in fuking.

No i doubt it would get me banned. Why would you think that ? can i get an admin opinion on that, i.e. if i said i hate the US for blah  blah reason. Would that get me banned?


You lost interest because you have nothing on me and you have not been able to post anything related to the OP post. Next time, provide some contribution to the actual thread before you go making bullshit statements.
You clearly don't know there's a "c" is "fucking" since you've spelt the world wrong on at least 10 different occasions, but oh well, English might not be your first langauge.

Now, if you admitted you did hate America, tie that in with your massive amount of anti American posts and you would probably be warned, then temp banned for constantly turning threads into an America bashing fuckfest, not "fukfest", are we learning?

Now, I've contributed to the thread in various posts, just not to you. If you have a quick read, you'll find many of my posts are on topic, but you have a talent for derailed and spewing shit. So don't go making your little "Contribute or leave lololol" statements when I clearly have, just not in retorts to you.

Can you be quiet for a bit now?
2009-02-05 11:06:34
andy12
Banned
+52|6961

Bertster7 wrote:

andy12 wrote:

ghettoperson wrote:


What the fuck are you talking about? Are you stupid? If someone attached a car battery to my balls, I'd confess to taking Benjamin Franklins virginity. That is why torture is useless.
Really if it never fucking produces reliable information and has never led to stopping an attack, the positions of insurgents or training camps then why the fuck does the US government pump millions of dollars into Gitmo if it never, ever works? Oh my science...
Why did the US declare war on an abstract tactic?

Why did the US invade Iraq as a part of the war on terror?

Who can say. The fact remains, that it is illegal, immoral and, according to the experts, unreliable. A country torturing detainees is not a civilised nation. The US is better than that and should be stepping up and being a shining beacon to the rest of the world - not stooping to torture.

If I was American I would be appalled that my country was behaving in this manner - as I'm sure a vast number of Americans are. I'm disgusted enough at the British governments complicity in this. I would be calling for the impeachment of those responsible for, at the very least, bringing the nation (further) into disrepute.
Certain experts, but then again there will be experts that back up that it does give an advantage. Just like there are scientists with PHD's that believe in Scientology, experts are on both sides of nearly every world issue.

A country that has enemies cannot go around offering coffee, sweets, money or whatever else is the alternative to punishment and pain. People need to fear us, and they don't which is why Iraq and Afghanistan has dragged on for so long. There will always be a resistance if the biggest fear is prison.
2009-02-05 11:13:26
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6885|SE London

andy12 wrote:

Bertster7 wrote:

andy12 wrote:


Really if it never fucking produces reliable information and has never led to stopping an attack, the positions of insurgents or training camps then why the fuck does the US government pump millions of dollars into Gitmo if it never, ever works? Oh my science...
Why did the US declare war on an abstract tactic?

Why did the US invade Iraq as a part of the war on terror?

Who can say. The fact remains, that it is illegal, immoral and, according to the experts, unreliable. A country torturing detainees is not a civilised nation. The US is better than that and should be stepping up and being a shining beacon to the rest of the world - not stooping to torture.

If I was American I would be appalled that my country was behaving in this manner - as I'm sure a vast number of Americans are. I'm disgusted enough at the British governments complicity in this. I would be calling for the impeachment of those responsible for, at the very least, bringing the nation (further) into disrepute.
Certain experts, but then again there will be experts that back up that it does give an advantage. Just like there are scientists with PHD's that believe in Scientology, experts are on both sides of nearly every world issue.

A country that has enemies cannot go around offering coffee, sweets, money or whatever else is the alternative to punishment and pain. People need to fear us, and they don't which is why Iraq and Afghanistan has dragged on for so long. There will always be a resistance if the biggest fear is prison.
The concensus amongst experts is that it is unreliable. Just like there is concensus amongst scientists that Scientology is bollocks. There will always be voices of descent on any issue.
2009-02-05 11:13:28
mafia996630
© 2009 Jeff Minard
+319|7067|d

andy12 wrote:

mafia996630 wrote:

andy12 wrote:

There's a "c" in "fucking".

No I don't think you care too much, maybe you don't want to admit it because you'd rather post your drivel here and stating you hate America would get you banned. Either way, I've lost interest.
REALLLY ? ?? OMG!!!!!! : 0 .i didn't know there was a C in fuking.

No i doubt it would get me banned. Why would you think that ? can i get an admin opinion on that, i.e. if i said i hate the US for blah  blah reason. Would that get me banned?


You lost interest because you have nothing on me and you have not been able to post anything related to the OP post. Next time, provide some contribution to the actual thread before you go making bullshit statements.
You clearly don't know there's a "c" is "fucking" since you've spelt the world wrong on at least 10 different occasions, but oh well, English might not be your first langauge.

Now, if you admitted you did hate America, tie that in with your massive amount of anti American posts and you would probably be warned, then temp banned for constantly turning threads into an America bashing fuckfest, not "fukfest", are we learning?

Now, I've contributed to the thread in various posts, just not to you. If you have a quick read, you'll find many of my posts are on topic, but you have a talent for derailed and spewing shit. So don't go making your little "Contribute or leave lololol" statements when I clearly have, just not in retorts to you.

Can you be quiet for a bit now?
fuk me, you learn something new every fukin day. (o no, i missed the G and the C)

What "massive" amount of anti American posts ? You keep saying shit but nothing making sense dude, unless your willing to  show where i have done this, you need to stfu about me being anti american.

Your the real cunt that hates America! ADMITTTT ITT, ADDMITTT ITT.  (<--see how retarded that sounds)

Ill give you that contributing one ; ).

Last edited by mafia996630 (2009-02-05 11:17:11)

 

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