Just because some asshole says it's illegal it doesn't make it worse than being drunk. By asshole I mean the guys making laws not you.usmarine wrote:
illegal drugs. you know, the law?Turquoise wrote:
Alcohol is a drug. So is caffeine.
What he wants to ask you is: If you were an illegal immigrant in America would you smoke pot because American law obviously wouldn't apply to you or you wouldn't be here so therefore you are a pot smoking hippocrit and pot should be legal because it is the same a you drinking alcohol vs a Mexican puffing a fatty in east L.A.usmarine wrote:
i dont know. and thats irrelevant.Turquoise wrote:
Would you have stopped drinking during Prohibition?
Please keep up with the conversation here.
Now, as far as the hookers it is legal in Vegas but no in hicks town where you live, but if you ever were stationed in Germany or Partied in Vegas with the whores you still have to count them even tho they were as legal as getting Married and then devorced which is basically prostitution.
True, but I was trying to imply that we were on top mostly because so much of the world was devastated by WW2. Had WW2 never occurred, we probably never would've been on the very top -- we'd probably just share the top with Europe.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Relatively weak how? Economically? This thread is primarily about the American Dream, which is primarily about individual economic success, made possible in the micro scale by macro opportunity. The late 1800s and the 1920s might be the best time period examples of this idea.Turquoise wrote:
IMHO, I think World War 2 did. You have to remember that America was relatively weak before WW2. It wasn't until we amassed a huge and powerful military and that Europe and East Asia were left in shambles after the war that America became such a superpower. When the Soviets fell later on, then we were definitely on top.
It's true that strategically we were not on top until relatively recently, but quite honestly a strong military is only an offshoot of an excellent economy, at least as exemplified in the U.S. We won WWII out of sheer production, and it's how we outlasted the commies.
It's not purely laziness. I'd say it's mostly because we spent tax money in the wrong areas. A lot of tax money gets wasted on bureaucracy and kickbacks. What I'm suggesting is that our management was lacking in "ingenuity" so to speak. Norway has progressed to the prosperous state it's currently in by reinvesting in essential things like healthcare and education. By having such nice public amenities, it makes it easier for the average person to excel professionally.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
We have always primarily respected American ingenuity. Not necessarily outsmarting our enemies or beating them out technologically, though that is typically the result, but finding ways of doing more with less better and faster. So long as outsourcing does not interfere with our ability to do just that, we shouldn't have gone anywhere relatively. As we ship unskilled jobs overseas, we should have had entrepreneurs filling in those gaps. They should have been driving education, as one way or another the number of people with a college degree would have gone up if the demand for skilled labor was there. As a culture we should have continued to push ourselves to excel in times of contentment, but we got lazy instead.Turquoise wrote:
During that time we spent on top, however, we focused heavily on outsourcing. It was only natural that companies would look for cheaper ways to do business, and in the process, they raised the standard of living of many of these countries. Unfortunately, our education system didn't keep up. We decided to subsidize industries where America didn't have the comparative advantage of producing their goods. Automakers and agriculture come to mind.
That is the route I wished we had taken.
I'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic, although, if you're being serious... I agree that our parents' generations truly fucked up things in this country.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
No.Turquoise wrote:
Instead of throwing money at these industries, we should've spent that money on better educating our workforce, but now, it's too late.All we can do now is damage control. We can slowly move our workforce toward higher skills, but the debt we've accrued through things like these bailouts will eventually bring us down. Still, politicians will continue to support them because all they care about is the short run (getting re-elected).
God's sake be careful about what you say around your/my generation, that's the last thing we need to be hearing. Even if it is true, telling people that won't help the situation at all. Rousing people to better their standing in life should be the goal of the generation behind mine, it's the least they can do after the state of affairs they have given us.
To both of ya,ATG wrote:
I love the guy, but c'mon.
It's like a guy pontificating about religion who has never read the bible.
truth be told, I could have gone anywhere with my trade, I simply chose to with a company that paid the most. When I joined the company I knew there would be travel, I didn't know I would be going to Germany or Iraq. I will never be out of a job as long as I can work on airplanes, regardless as to the condition of the airline industry. I think usmarine would vouch for my statement. I do not "need" the govt. I chose to go where the money was, I preach capitalism, I live capitalism, I preach marketability, I live marketability.
I see no need to apologize for being good at what I do, make money at what I do, or be in a demanding field.
he is just mad that skilled labor is safer and makes more money then unskilled labor on average.lowing wrote:
I see no need to apologize for being good at what I do, make money at what I do, or be in a demanding field.
and dont come at me with "i couldnt hang in your shop" crap Alex. Lowing and I can do sheet metal just as well as you.
Are you saying Mexican's are stupid? There are real smart Mexicans and they can do what you do better so don't be racist.lowing wrote:
To both of ya,ATG wrote:
I love the guy, but c'mon.
It's like a guy pontificating about religion who has never read the bible.
truth be told, I could have gone anywhere with my trade, I simply chose to with a company that paid the most. When I joined the company I knew there would be travel, I didn't know I would be going to Germany or Iraq. I will never be out of a job as long as I can work on airplanes, regardless as to the condition of the airline industry. I think usmarine would vouch for my statement. I do not "need" the govt. I chose to go where the money was, I preach capitalism, I live capitalism, I preach marketability, I live marketability.
I see no need to apologize for being good at what I do, make money at what I do, or be in a demanding field.
Uh... What I was actually going for is basically what Serge said.Lotta_Drool wrote:
What he wants to ask you is: If you were an illegal immigrant in America would you smoke pot because American law obviously wouldn't apply to you or you wouldn't be here so therefore you are a pot smoking hippocrit and pot should be legal because it is the same a you drinking alcohol vs a Mexican puffing a fatty in east L.A.usmarine wrote:
i dont know. and thats irrelevant.Turquoise wrote:
Would you have stopped drinking during Prohibition?
Please keep up with the conversation here.
Now, as far as the hookers it is legal in Vegas but no in hicks town where you live, but if you ever were stationed in Germany or Partied in Vegas with the whores you still have to count them even tho they were as legal as getting Married and then devorced which is basically prostitution.
Laws regarding drugs are mostly arbitrary, because they clearly have no connection to how much harm the substance does to society.
For example, alcohol causes far more problems to society than pot ever has. Therefore, from a logical standpoint, it makes no sense to have pot illegal but alcohol legal.
Unfortunately, most drug laws are culturally based, whether we're talking about America or any other country for that matter. Therefore, that makes drug laws arbitrary in a logical sense, because culture is not something based on logic.
I think you are confused because of the weed. Let us nondruggies discuss what you meant and we will get back too you.Turquoise wrote:
Uh... What I was actually going for is basically what Serge said.Lotta_Drool wrote:
What he wants to ask you is: If you were an illegal immigrant in America would you smoke pot because American law obviously wouldn't apply to you or you wouldn't be here so therefore you are a pot smoking hippocrit and pot should be legal because it is the same a you drinking alcohol vs a Mexican puffing a fatty in east L.A.usmarine wrote:
i dont know. and thats irrelevant.
Please keep up with the conversation here.
Now, as far as the hookers it is legal in Vegas but no in hicks town where you live, but if you ever were stationed in Germany or Partied in Vegas with the whores you still have to count them even tho they were as legal as getting Married and then devorced which is basically prostitution.
Laws regarding drugs are mostly arbitrary, because they clearly have no connection to how much harm the substance does to society.
For example, alcohol causes far more problems to society than pot ever has. Therefore, from a logical standpoint, it makes no sense to have pot illegal but alcohol legal.
Unfortunately, most drug laws are culturally based, whether we're talking about America or any other country for that matter. Therefore, that makes drug laws arbitrary in a logical sense, because culture is not something based on logic.
I drink, but I don't smoke pot. (My job has drug tests. Which, by the way, are pretty useless against all drugs other than pot. Cocaine and heroin leave your system in a few days, whereas THC stays in your system for a few weeks.)Lotta_Drool wrote:
I think you are confused because of the weed. Let us nondruggies discuss what you meant and we will get back too you.Turquoise wrote:
Uh... What I was actually going for is basically what Serge said.Lotta_Drool wrote:
What he wants to ask you is: If you were an illegal immigrant in America would you smoke pot because American law obviously wouldn't apply to you or you wouldn't be here so therefore you are a pot smoking hippocrit and pot should be legal because it is the same a you drinking alcohol vs a Mexican puffing a fatty in east L.A.
Please keep up with the conversation here.
Now, as far as the hookers it is legal in Vegas but no in hicks town where you live, but if you ever were stationed in Germany or Partied in Vegas with the whores you still have to count them even tho they were as legal as getting Married and then devorced which is basically prostitution.
Laws regarding drugs are mostly arbitrary, because they clearly have no connection to how much harm the substance does to society.
For example, alcohol causes far more problems to society than pot ever has. Therefore, from a logical standpoint, it makes no sense to have pot illegal but alcohol legal.
Unfortunately, most drug laws are culturally based, whether we're talking about America or any other country for that matter. Therefore, that makes drug laws arbitrary in a logical sense, because culture is not something based on logic.
While I understand Europe was devastated, we were still doing very, very well before WWII, and while I can't say I have any numbers to compare I would fathom a guess that we were doing better than most of Europe. Growth is just good for the economy.Turquoise wrote:
True, but I was trying to imply that we were on top mostly because so much of the world was devastated by WW2. Had WW2 never occurred, we probably never would've been on the very top -- we'd probably just share the top with Europe.
Erm. You have completely lost me. How does that leap get made?Turquoise wrote:
Norway has progressed to the prosperous state it's currently in by reinvesting in essential things like healthcare and education. By having such nice public amenities, it makes it easier for the average person to excel professionally.
Sadly I am being quite frank. If the country truly is going down the shitter, the last thing we need is for people to say it aloud. Both for morale and for the economy.Turquoise wrote:
I'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic, although, if you're being serious... I agree that our parents' generations truly fucked up things in this country.
The idea behind comparative advantage is that a country should focus on what industries it best runs. Third World countries have an advantage in producing low skill goods. First World countries are best at high skill jobs, but these jobs require a lot of education (most of the time). More specialization is required in education for such things, but unfortunately, most American education systems (pre-collegiate level) are very generalist in their approach. For the most part, we have not taken the same pragmatic approaches that are found in places like Norway, Germany, and Japan. If we had education systems more like these countries, then our workforce would be better educated, and our overall production would be even more highly skilled than it currently is. This also makes adapting to globalization much, much easier.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Erm. You have completely lost me. How does that leap get made?Turquoise wrote:
Norway has progressed to the prosperous state it's currently in by reinvesting in essential things like healthcare and education. By having such nice public amenities, it makes it easier for the average person to excel professionally.
Eh... on the first count, I agree. The problem is that our leaders apparently believe in the hollow rhetoric they often spout. Worse yet, they believe in these bailouts.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Sadly I am being quite frank. If the country truly is going down the shitter, the last thing we need is for people to say it aloud. Both for morale and for the economy.Turquoise wrote:
I'm not sure if you're being serious or sarcastic, although, if you're being serious... I agree that our parents' generations truly fucked up things in this country.
Last edited by Turquoise (2009-01-16 16:28:54)
Purely economically speaking I don't see much need for extremely high levels of public education. Money is made off of people skills, marketability, sound reason and people willing to take risks. Honestly learning high level calculus or other similarly highly specific skills is a nearly worthless endeavor.Turquoise wrote:
The idea behind comparative advantage is that a country should focus on what industries it best runs. Third World countries have an advantage in producing low skill goods. First World countries are best at high skill jobs, but these jobs require a lot of education (most of the time). More specialization is required in education for such things, but unfortunately, most American education systems (pre-collegiate level) are very generalist in their approach. For the most part, we have not taken the same pragmatic approaches that are found in places like Norway, Germany, and Japan. If we had education systems more like these countries, then our workforce would be better educated, and our overall production would be even more highly skilled than it currently is. This also makes adapting to globalization much, much easier.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Erm. You have completely lost me. How does that leap get made?Turquoise wrote:
Norway has progressed to the prosperous state it's currently in by reinvesting in essential things like healthcare and education. By having such nice public amenities, it makes it easier for the average person to excel professionally.
I'm referring mostly to technical education. However, what you're talking about is relevant to many professional jobs like various engineering fields.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Purely economically speaking I don't see much need for extremely high levels of public education. Money is made off of people skills, marketability, sound reason and people willing to take risks. Honestly learning high level calculus or other similarly highly specific skills is a nearly worthless endeavor.Turquoise wrote:
The idea behind comparative advantage is that a country should focus on what industries it best runs. Third World countries have an advantage in producing low skill goods. First World countries are best at high skill jobs, but these jobs require a lot of education (most of the time). More specialization is required in education for such things, but unfortunately, most American education systems (pre-collegiate level) are very generalist in their approach. For the most part, we have not taken the same pragmatic approaches that are found in places like Norway, Germany, and Japan. If we had education systems more like these countries, then our workforce would be better educated, and our overall production would be even more highly skilled than it currently is. This also makes adapting to globalization much, much easier.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Erm. You have completely lost me. How does that leap get made?
Well in some areas of aviation you do need a security clearance, like when I worked on military helicopters. In commerical aviation no security clearance is required. SO that aspect of your argument is not a factor. As for the rest of your argument, you are throwing a lot of "IF's" around. None of which which will materialize in the name of safety. I am licensed to work on airplanes by the govt. You can not work on airplanes without a license by yourself. I am not worried.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
I may be wrong, but as I understand it, your job requires some level of security clearance. I suspect that is a large factor in why a glut of illegals may never take your job, but being in a field that requires security is not a job skill. If your job was not such that security clearance was required, you may find the private sector doesn't care whether the person speaks English. If they can do the job, and are willing to do it cheaper, under the table, and work without a benefit package, you could find your skillset means absolutely jack shit.lowing wrote:
I am sorry, but if you have a job skill that can be taken away from you by an illegal alien who does not speak english and does not even have a SS# let alone a resume' then you need to face a hard reality. You HAVE no job skill to speak of in the first place.Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:
You're still missing the point. Job skills that are in demand can be lost to outsourcing. What would you do if your job skill were devalued because a flood of illegals came into the country and created such a glut that, if you managed to keep your job at all, you'd never be able to make a living at it because of oversupply driving down the wages?
Ya see my point? If your keen compitition is an illegal alien then you might wanna rethink what you consider a marketable skill.
And just to be clear, I'm not talking about uneducated workers from Latin America, that come here to pick fruit or be maids. What if a conflict with Pakistan lead many highly educated Indians to flee to this country illegally. They are well educated, experienced, and did the same work you do. If your job requires background checks and security clearance, you may fine. If you're in the private sector, all bets are off.
Is technical education really in greater supply elsewhere than here?Turquoise wrote:
I'm referring mostly to technical education. However, what you're talking about is relevant to many professional jobs like various engineering fields.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Purely economically speaking I don't see much need for extremely high levels of public education. Money is made off of people skills, marketability, sound reason and people willing to take risks. Honestly learning high level calculus or other similarly highly specific skills is a nearly worthless endeavor.Turquoise wrote:
The idea behind comparative advantage is that a country should focus on what industries it best runs. Third World countries have an advantage in producing low skill goods. First World countries are best at high skill jobs, but these jobs require a lot of education (most of the time). More specialization is required in education for such things, but unfortunately, most American education systems (pre-collegiate level) are very generalist in their approach. For the most part, we have not taken the same pragmatic approaches that are found in places like Norway, Germany, and Japan. If we had education systems more like these countries, then our workforce would be better educated, and our overall production would be even more highly skilled than it currently is. This also makes adapting to globalization much, much easier.
At the pre-collegiate level, yes. In Germany, for example, children are separated by technical and academic ability at around their equivalent of 8th grade. This allows for specialization at an earlier age (and higher employment rates right after exiting school).Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Is technical education really in greater supply elsewhere than here?Turquoise wrote:
I'm referring mostly to technical education. However, what you're talking about is relevant to many professional jobs like various engineering fields.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Purely economically speaking I don't see much need for extremely high levels of public education. Money is made off of people skills, marketability, sound reason and people willing to take risks. Honestly learning high level calculus or other similarly highly specific skills is a nearly worthless endeavor.
Because our systems usually focus solely on academics, it leaves more technically talented students behind. Technical colleges are useful, but they would be more useful if most of their students entered classes with a head start on a particular field of study.
germans are good at that lulz......cant help itTurquoise wrote:
In Germany, for example, children are separated by technical and academic ability
I've only read the OP, and will probably go through everything else some otehr time, but...
Pt 1.
Pt 2.
Pt 3.
Pt 1.
Pt 2.
Pt 3.
Last edited by TheDonkey (2009-01-16 16:50:38)
Germans are amazing at organization... (whether for good or evil purposes... lol)usmarine wrote:
germans are good at that lulz......cant help itTurquoise wrote:
In Germany, for example, children are separated by technical and academic ability
German students are separated by mental ability. Those with the best scores are pushed into the Gymnasium while those who don't quite make the grade go into vocational schools yes, but it's not because those students showed technical aptitude.Turquoise wrote:
At the pre-collegiate level, yes. In Germany, for example, children are separated by technical and academic ability at around their equivalent of 8th grade. This allows for specialization at an earlier age (and higher employment rates right after exiting school).Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Is technical education really in greater supply elsewhere than here?Turquoise wrote:
I'm referring mostly to technical education. However, what you're talking about is relevant to many professional jobs like various engineering fields.
Because our systems usually focus solely on academics, it leaves more technically talented students behind. Technical colleges are useful, but they would be more useful if most of their students entered classes with a head start on a particular field of study.
/so sayeth three years of Deutsch class and many a presentation on their education system
No I do not expect everyone would chip in, that is why I am all for letting those that do not chip in starve. This is my beef with liberals, they wanna save everyone, even the ones that are dragging us all down. I say cut the ropeFatherTed wrote:
As to the last point, could you ever expect everyone to want to pitch in? No, of course you couldn't - that's a reason unfettered capitalism's flawedlowing wrote:
I am cherry picking here Cam but I am stuck on your choice of the word "entitled"..as in "every human being should be entitled to a job'.CameronPoe wrote:
I'm reading 'The Grapes Of Wrath' at the moment. It is very pertinent right now. Great book and I'm only just over halfway through. The problem is that the free market capitalism the elite designed is horribly flawed and the US system is skewed a bit too far to the right. Any system that is not designed to sustainably and consistently operate in the best interests of society needs to be sorted out. The problem is that humankind and politicians never learn from past errors - I'm reading a book set in the 1930s and the modern day version of what it documents is happening again right now some 70 years later. Globalisation has brought benefits but it has also made the economy an unwieldly, barely controllable, dangerous beast. Every human being should be entitled to employment. The system as it stands does not ensure this. That needs to be addressed. Noone can hedge for one or two years of continued unemployment or bare sustenance employment, let alone raise a family in such conditions.
In a word: we need an economic revolution.
On the vote issue the US has become a bit overblown. The larger a nation becomes, the less representative and accountable the government becomes and the more prone to corruption/whims of rich special interest groups it becomes.
In my very humble opinion, it is this mindset of entitlement over earning that has gotten us into this mess in the first place. Capitalism works, it is those who do not contribute to it and still withdrawals from it that is sinking our ship.
Well, since most tests of mental ability are measured by academics, that tends to more accurately separate students by their levels of academic ability. I know the intention is probably mental ability, but there's only so much you can gather by a test in a classroom.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
German students are separated by mental ability. Those with the best scores are pushed into the Gymnasium while those who don't quite make the grade go into vocational schools yes, but it's not because those students showed technical aptitude.Turquoise wrote:
At the pre-collegiate level, yes. In Germany, for example, children are separated by technical and academic ability at around their equivalent of 8th grade. This allows for specialization at an earlier age (and higher employment rates right after exiting school).Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Is technical education really in greater supply elsewhere than here?
Because our systems usually focus solely on academics, it leaves more technically talented students behind. Technical colleges are useful, but they would be more useful if most of their students entered classes with a head start on a particular field of study.
/so sayeth three years of Deutsch class and many a presentation on their education system
Generally speaking, students with less academic ability will often make up for it in technical talent.
Airlines are trying to outsource maint to mexico and other countries less economically developed. They are finding the quality of work is as cheap as the expense of doing business down there.Lotta_Drool wrote:
Are you saying Mexican's are stupid? There are real smart Mexicans and they can do what you do better so don't be racist.lowing wrote:
To both of ya,ATG wrote:
I love the guy, but c'mon.
It's like a guy pontificating about religion who has never read the bible.
truth be told, I could have gone anywhere with my trade, I simply chose to with a company that paid the most. When I joined the company I knew there would be travel, I didn't know I would be going to Germany or Iraq. I will never be out of a job as long as I can work on airplanes, regardless as to the condition of the airline industry. I think usmarine would vouch for my statement. I do not "need" the govt. I chose to go where the money was, I preach capitalism, I live capitalism, I preach marketability, I live marketability.
I see no need to apologize for being good at what I do, make money at what I do, or be in a demanding field.
man thats the truth. we took a lease airplane from air canada once that came from a C check in mexico. that plane was an MX nightmare.lowing wrote:
Airlines are trying to outsource maint to mexico and other countries less economically developed. They are finding the quality of work is as cheap as the expense of doing business down there.
lol, well I can't lie, I hate sheetmetal, I really like working systems a wholllllleeeeee lot better.usmarine wrote:
he is just mad that skilled labor is safer and makes more money then unskilled labor on average.lowing wrote:
I see no need to apologize for being good at what I do, make money at what I do, or be in a demanding field.
and dont come at me with "i couldnt hang in your shop" crap Alex. Lowing and I can do sheet metal just as well as you.