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2009-01-06 19:22:44
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7010|67.222.138.85

jord wrote:

You can chose to be a monk, why, the very option is available to you now. And since you won't meet anyone there, you can't brag about how good you are to people. You could go from nought to selfless in 30 days!

Not everyone that donates to charity brags about it, or mentions it to anyone. Obviously I cannot prove this, you'll have to take my word for it...?
It depends very much what kind of monk you are.

People don't have to know about it for it to make you feel better about it. You know with complete certainty that they would view you as ideal, much as you are demonstrating right here. You are putting people on a pedestal that you don't even know.
2009-01-06 19:25:52
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6708|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

The point is...  as you implied, governmental leadership needs to be very good in order to properly protect the environment just the same way that keeping the economy stable requires.
This is ultimately the root of all problems. I think you can make any political policy work if you have competent people in office. That's why I generally enjoy talking about people more than I enjoy talking about policy. Nobody here is truly informed enough to talk about policy, and even the best policy can be royally screwed by the incompetent monkeys meant to implement it.
I think that's basically the difference between being educated about something and being wise about something.  Donald Rumsfeld is obviously an educated man, but because he's still incompetent despite the wealth of experience he has, he must be seriously lacking in wisdom.

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

But yes, competence often depends on how well you make something appeal to someone else's shortsighted self-interest.
awsm
Thanks 
2009-01-06 19:29:21
Yellowman03
Once Again, We Meet at Last
+108|6538|Texas
It's important to remember that a gas tax would also affect transportation. Not public transportation or daily commutes, but trucking, delivery, AIRLINERS. The extra 18-25 cents when added to OPEC's reaction to plummeting oil prices can devastate these major industries that already are in trouble. Currently, there is no alternative to airplanes and 18-wheelers. I'm pretty sure Congress will not completely ignore the lobbyists and pass this proposal without some way to help businesses.
2009-01-06 19:32:05
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6708|North Carolina
I think we just need to remove all subsidies and tax breaks to oil exploration and production.  It's not like they need the help.

There's no need to raise taxes when we already give cuts and subsidies that shouldn't be made in the first place.  Oil companies should have to pay the same share everyone else does without getting tax money thrown at them either.

If any tax breaks and subsidies need to be made, they should go to alternative energy research.
2009-01-06 19:38:03
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7010|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

The point is...  as you implied, governmental leadership needs to be very good in order to properly protect the environment just the same way that keeping the economy stable requires.
This is ultimately the root of all problems. I think you can make any political policy work if you have competent people in office. That's why I generally enjoy talking about people more than I enjoy talking about policy. Nobody here is truly informed enough to talk about policy, and even the best policy can be royally screwed by the incompetent monkeys meant to implement it.
I think that's basically the difference between being educated about something and being wise about something.  Donald Rumsfeld is obviously an educated man, but because he's still incompetent despite the wealth of experience he has, he must be seriously lacking in wisdom.
I think political experience is useless.
2009-01-06 19:41:36
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7010|67.222.138.85

Yellowman03 wrote:

It's important to remember that a gas tax would also affect transportation. Not public transportation or daily commutes, but trucking, delivery, AIRLINERS. The extra 18-25 cents when added to OPEC's reaction to plummeting oil prices can devastate these major industries that already are in trouble. Currently, there is no alternative to airplanes and 18-wheelers. I'm pretty sure Congress will not completely ignore the lobbyists and pass this proposal without some way to help businesses.
They won't ignore the lobbyists period. That would effect their bottom line.

You don't want to choke them to death, but putting pressure on big business is exactly where it needs to be. They are the ones that have the power to do something about it. It's a fine line, kind of like auto-erotic asphyxiation. Obviously you can't go too far, but if you don't go far enough that kind of defeats the purpose.

I challenge someone else to work that into a metaphor
2009-01-06 19:45:26
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6708|North Carolina

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:


This is ultimately the root of all problems. I think you can make any political policy work if you have competent people in office. That's why I generally enjoy talking about people more than I enjoy talking about policy. Nobody here is truly informed enough to talk about policy, and even the best policy can be royally screwed by the incompetent monkeys meant to implement it.
I think that's basically the difference between being educated about something and being wise about something.  Donald Rumsfeld is obviously an educated man, but because he's still incompetent despite the wealth of experience he has, he must be seriously lacking in wisdom.
I think political experience is useless.
I would have to disagree with that.  While it is true that Bush has shown that experience doesn't always lead to wisdom, it is somewhat important.

Now, I know Obama doesn't have much executive experience to speak of (until about 14 days from now), but even his limited experience was necessary for eligibility in my eyes.  If he had never been a community organizer, senator, or lawyer, then I think he'd be way over his head.  The presidency is still very different from everything else he's done, but he's obviously shown his skill at campaigning and giving speeches.  If nothing else, he's an excellent spokesperson -- and he wouldn't be that if it weren't for experience.

I think it just comes down to the idea that you need a combination of experience and wisdom in order to be a good leader.  If you're lacking either, you stand a good chance of sucking at being a politician or a leader of any other sort.
2009-01-06 19:46:32
Yellowman03
Once Again, We Meet at Last
+108|6538|Texas

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Yellowman03 wrote:

It's important to remember that a gas tax would also affect transportation. Not public transportation or daily commutes, but trucking, delivery, AIRLINERS. The extra 18-25 cents when added to OPEC's reaction to plummeting oil prices can devastate these major industries that already are in trouble. Currently, there is no alternative to airplanes and 18-wheelers. I'm pretty sure Congress will not completely ignore the lobbyists and pass this proposal without some way to help businesses.
They won't ignore the lobbyists period. That would effect their bottom line.

You don't want to choke them to death, but putting pressure on big business is exactly where it needs to be. They are the ones that have the power to do something about it. It's a fine line, kind of like auto-erotic asphyxiation. Obviously you can't go too far, but if you don't go far enough that kind of defeats the purpose.

I challenge someone else to work that into a metaphor
Exactly, a perfect example is the car industry. It's the American Auto-makers' own fault they are about to go under. They've been dicking around for 40 years, and they let the Asian automakers beat them (tortoise and the hare metaphor? I know it sucks compared to yours but deal with it). I'm just hoping Congress doesn't screw up. Afterall, Pelosi is SOH again...
2009-01-06 19:55:45
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7010|67.222.138.85

Turquoise wrote:

...he's obviously shown his skill at campaigning and giving speeches.
I quite honestly believe that's all it takes to be elected and considered a good president. That is all that is needed for someone that is primarily a figurehead, as he should be.

Turquoise wrote:

If nothing else, he's an excellent spokesperson -- and he wouldn't be that if it weren't for experience.
Some people are naturals. I actually doubt that very many people get over an intense fear of public speaking to become a politician.

Turquoise wrote:

I think it just comes down to the idea that you need a combination of experience and wisdom in order to be a good leader.  If you're lacking either, you stand a good chance of sucking at being a politician or a leader of any other sort.
I don't think wisdom comes with experience, and if wisdom doesn't come with it I don't know what does. Of course you make a name and a reputation, and those are valuable trivialities that are important in getting elected. I don't think it makes you a better leader. Some people learn from their mistakes, even better some people learn from other people's mistakes, some people just don't learn.
2009-01-06 20:28:45
SealXo
Member
+309|6838
I just bought an X3 last week

I got 26 on a roadtrip

I average like 17.5 city- i think it will get better once it breaks in alil more

Last edited by SealXo (2009-01-06 20:34:23)

2009-01-06 20:31:18
Yellowman03
Once Again, We Meet at Last
+108|6538|Texas

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

...he's obviously shown his skill at campaigning and giving speeches.
I quite honestly believe that's all it takes to be elected and considered a good president. That is all that is needed for someone that is primarily a figurehead, as he should be.

Turquoise wrote:

If nothing else, he's an excellent spokesperson -- and he wouldn't be that if it weren't for experience.
Some people are naturals. I actually doubt that very many people get over an intense fear of public speaking to become a politician.

Turquoise wrote:

I think it just comes down to the idea that you need a combination of experience and wisdom in order to be a good leader.  If you're lacking either, you stand a good chance of sucking at being a politician or a leader of any other sort.
I don't think wisdom comes with experience, and if wisdom doesn't come with it I don't know what does. Of course you make a name and a reputation, and those are valuable trivialities that are important in getting elected. I don't think it makes you a better leader. Some people learn from their mistakes, even better some people learn from other people's mistakes, some people just don't learn.
Wisdom can only count for so much. What one politician thinks is the right direction to follow may conflict with another (Rep vs. Dem). It takes a combination of charisma and assertiveness (to do the right thing). FDR and Lincoln are considered greats because they had both. Despite difficult times, they knew what was right, so they did everything they could to fix the problems despite unconstitutionality. Truly great presidents know the needs of the country. We don't need experience or wisdom to any extreme. We just need a competent leader who can direct the nation in one direction regardless of opinion. Of course, Congress is so protected now to the point where we can do little, and again...Nancy Pelosi.
2009-01-07 04:39:06
mikkel
Member
+383|6904

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:


We're not more shortsighted, we do what everyone else would if they had the money to do so.
Norway is wealthier than us, and they don't do it.

It's not about wealth, it's about mindset.  There are aspects of our culture that are mindlessly consumerist.
There is a mindset in our country about cars. We are more spread out as a nation, we have lots of the great outdoors that give many people the legitimate need for large cars, and we have money to spend on cars. If Norway had more of the first two they would buy them just as much as us - it's hardly an environmental issue.
Uh? Norway has three times the land area of the state of Colorado, the farthest distance between two points in mainland Norway is around 1200 miles, whereas the farthest distance between two points in Colorado is around 500 miles, More than half of the population of Colorado lives in the Denver metro area, while much less than half of the population of Norway lives in the Oslo metro area. Half of Colorado is flat, all of Norway is highly mountainous. And here's the kicker - Colorado has three times the population density of Norway.

No great outdoors, no distances to cover, huh?
2009-01-07 05:16:24
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7113|Nårvei

Kmarion wrote:

http://www.dailypress.com/news/dp-local_suvsales_1230dec30,0,3236578.story
NEWPORT NEWS - It looks like the Highlander is in and the Prius is out — for now at least.

Trucks and sport utility vehicles will outsell cars for the first time since February, according to a December report by Edmunds.com, which tracks industry statistics.

"Despite all the public discussion of fuel efficiency, SUVs and trucks are the industry's biggest sellers right now as a remarkable number of buyers seem to be compelled by three factors: great deals, low gas prices and winter weather," said Michelle Krebs of AutoObserver.com, a division of Edmunds.com, in a prepared statement.

"It was this summer that customers were concerned about the gas mileage. It hasn't been a topic of conversation lately," said Dave Lawson, the general sales manager at Pomoco Chrysler Jeep Dodge in Newport News. The majority of Pomoco's inventory is SUVs, and its best-selling models are minivans.

Lawson said sales at the dealership are up, although they are still below last year's numbers. Low gas prices and increased consumer confidence are part of the reason, he said. But the real draw for customers is prices
I need a face palm pic.
Big wheels have super savings these days, this was expected and could prolly last for a month or two ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2009-01-07 05:22:27
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7113|Nårvei

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

...he's obviously shown his skill at campaigning and giving speeches.
I quite honestly believe that's all it takes to be elected and considered a good president. That is all that is needed for someone that is primarily a figurehead, as he should be.

Turquoise wrote:

If nothing else, he's an excellent spokesperson -- and he wouldn't be that if it weren't for experience.
Some people are naturals. I actually doubt that very many people get over an intense fear of public speaking to become a politician.

Turquoise wrote:

I think it just comes down to the idea that you need a combination of experience and wisdom in order to be a good leader.  If you're lacking either, you stand a good chance of sucking at being a politician or a leader of any other sort.
I don't think wisdom comes with experience, and if wisdom doesn't come with it I don't know what does. Of course you make a name and a reputation, and those are valuable trivialities that are important in getting elected. I don't think it makes you a better leader. Some people learn from their mistakes, even better some people learn from other people's mistakes, some people just don't learn.
Actually it takes practise to get rid of the fear of public speaking and wisdom comes with experience ... not for everybody but neither is it a birth perk ...

Do agree on the best leaders are those learning from others mistakes and of course their own ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2009-01-07 05:26:15
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|7010|67.222.138.85

mikkel wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:


Norway is wealthier than us, and they don't do it.

It's not about wealth, it's about mindset.  There are aspects of our culture that are mindlessly consumerist.
There is a mindset in our country about cars. We are more spread out as a nation, we have lots of the great outdoors that give many people the legitimate need for large cars, and we have money to spend on cars. If Norway had more of the first two they would buy them just as much as us - it's hardly an environmental issue.
Uh? Norway has three times the land area of the state of Colorado, the farthest distance between two points in mainland Norway is around 1200 miles, whereas the farthest distance between two points in Colorado is around 500 miles, More than half of the population of Colorado lives in the Denver metro area, while much less than half of the population of Norway lives in the Oslo metro area. Half of Colorado is flat, all of Norway is highly mountainous. And here's the kicker - Colorado has three times the population density of Norway.

No great outdoors, no distances to cover, huh?
That would be a much better argument if Colorado was synonymous with the U.S. Things being as they are it's rather silly...

Varegg wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

...he's obviously shown his skill at campaigning and giving speeches.
I quite honestly believe that's all it takes to be elected and considered a good president. That is all that is needed for someone that is primarily a figurehead, as he should be.

Turquoise wrote:

If nothing else, he's an excellent spokesperson -- and he wouldn't be that if it weren't for experience.
Some people are naturals. I actually doubt that very many people get over an intense fear of public speaking to become a politician.

Turquoise wrote:

I think it just comes down to the idea that you need a combination of experience and wisdom in order to be a good leader.  If you're lacking either, you stand a good chance of sucking at being a politician or a leader of any other sort.
I don't think wisdom comes with experience, and if wisdom doesn't come with it I don't know what does. Of course you make a name and a reputation, and those are valuable trivialities that are important in getting elected. I don't think it makes you a better leader. Some people learn from their mistakes, even better some people learn from other people's mistakes, some people just don't learn.
Actually it takes practise to get rid of the fear of public speaking and wisdom comes with experience ... not for everybody but neither is it a birth perk ...

Do agree on the best leaders are those learning from others mistakes and of course their own ...
Some people are not afraid of public speaking at all, ever, they love the attention.

Wisdom is a perspective, a perspective with no correlation to job experience.
2009-01-07 05:36:11
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7113|Nårvei

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

mikkel wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Norway is wealthier than us, and they don't do it.

It's not about wealth, it's about mindset.  There are aspects of our culture that are mindlessly consumerist.
There is a mindset in our country about cars. We are more spread out as a nation, we have lots of the great outdoors that give many people the legitimate need for large cars, and we have money to spend on cars. If Norway had more of the first two they would buy them just as much as us - it's hardly an environmental issue.
Uh? Norway has three times the land area of the state of Colorado, the farthest distance between two points in mainland Norway is around 1200 miles, whereas the farthest distance between two points in Colorado is around 500 miles, More than half of the population of Colorado lives in the Denver metro area, while much less than half of the population of Norway lives in the Oslo metro area. Half of Colorado is flat, all of Norway is highly mountainous. And here's the kicker - Colorado has three times the population density of Norway.

No great outdoors, no distances to cover, huh?
That would be a much better argument if Colorado was synonymous with the U.S. Things being as they are it's rather silly...

Varegg wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

...he's obviously shown his skill at campaigning and giving speeches.
I quite honestly believe that's all it takes to be elected and considered a good president. That is all that is needed for someone that is primarily a figurehead, as he should be.

Turquoise wrote:

If nothing else, he's an excellent spokesperson -- and he wouldn't be that if it weren't for experience.
Some people are naturals. I actually doubt that very many people get over an intense fear of public speaking to become a politician.


I don't think wisdom comes with experience, and if wisdom doesn't come with it I don't know what does. Of course you make a name and a reputation, and those are valuable trivialities that are important in getting elected. I don't think it makes you a better leader. Some people learn from their mistakes, even better some people learn from other people's mistakes, some people just don't learn.
Actually it takes practise to get rid of the fear of public speaking and wisdom comes with experience ... not for everybody but neither is it a birth perk ...

Do agree on the best leaders are those learning from others mistakes and of course their own ...
Some people are not afraid of public speaking at all, ever, they love the attention.

Wisdom is a perspective, a perspective with no correlation to job experience.
Wasn't specifying it was job related but as mentioned it is not a birth perk FM ... those not afraid of public speaking actually miss a certain connection in the brain and they are very few in numbers ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2009-01-07 06:27:21
mikkel
Member
+383|6904

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

mikkel wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

There is a mindset in our country about cars. We are more spread out as a nation, we have lots of the great outdoors that give many people the legitimate need for large cars, and we have money to spend on cars. If Norway had more of the first two they would buy them just as much as us - it's hardly an environmental issue.
Uh? Norway has three times the land area of the state of Colorado, the farthest distance between two points in mainland Norway is around 1200 miles, whereas the farthest distance between two points in Colorado is around 500 miles, More than half of the population of Colorado lives in the Denver metro area, while much less than half of the population of Norway lives in the Oslo metro area. Half of Colorado is flat, all of Norway is highly mountainous. And here's the kicker - Colorado has three times the population density of Norway.

No great outdoors, no distances to cover, huh?
That would be a much better argument if Colorado was synonymous with the U.S. Things being as they are it's rather silly..
I picked a state that has nearly the same population as Norway does, and one that most closely resembles the topology of Norway. Would you really feel better if I had compared Norway with an Eastern state? Things being as they are, Colorado is probably the best comparison one could pick.

I assume that you're able to tell me why you think I'm wrong, rather than just saying that I am?

Last edited by mikkel (2009-01-07 06:29:37)

2009-01-07 07:27:32
Stingray24
Proud member of the vast right-wing conspiracy
+1,060|6748|The Land of Scott Walker
I think what FM may be saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that he was comparing two countries, not two states, so the comparison does not work no matter what US state you may choose. 

My closest relatives are 3 states away, so when I travel w/ a family of 4 and luggage, a larger vehicle is necessary.  A Prius just won't cut it.  It won't work very well when traveling through significant snow accumulation either.  I would have been stuck on my way home from work several times just last month if I was driving some little econobox instead of my 4x4 suv.
2009-01-07 09:10:32
kylef
Gone
+1,352|6796|N. Ireland

jord wrote:

Not everyone that donates to charity brags about it, or mentions it to anyone. Obviously I cannot prove this, you'll have to take my word for it...?
Bible says that act is one of a decent man. So there you go!
2009-01-07 09:17:51
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7039|Salt Lake City

Yellowman03 wrote:

It's important to remember that a gas tax would also affect transportation. Not public transportation or daily commutes, but trucking, delivery, AIRLINERS. The extra 18-25 cents when added to OPEC's reaction to plummeting oil prices can devastate these major industries that already are in trouble. Currently, there is no alternative to airplanes and 18-wheelers. I'm pretty sure Congress will not completely ignore the lobbyists and pass this proposal without some way to help businesses.
Most businesses pay taxes quarterly.  For industries that do rely on large vehicles as part of doing business (no other alternatives) they could submit their receipts for fuel purchases and take a tax write-off for it.
2009-01-07 09:21:10
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|7039|Salt Lake City

Stingray24 wrote:

I think what FM may be saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that he was comparing two countries, not two states, so the comparison does not work no matter what US state you may choose. 

My closest relatives are 3 states away, so when I travel w/ a family of 4 and luggage, a larger vehicle is necessary.  A Prius just won't cut it.  It won't work very well when traveling through significant snow accumulation either.  I would have been stuck on my way home from work several times just last month if I was driving some little econobox instead of my 4x4 suv.
Full size SUVs based on truck chassis are the same as trucks in terms of ride and mileage.  The Crossover SUVs have more than enough room, ride height, and AWD capabilities to eliminate the need for full size SUV vehicles.
2009-01-07 10:24:57
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7113|Nårvei

Stingray24 wrote:

I think what FM may be saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that he was comparing two countries, not two states, so the comparison does not work no matter what US state you may choose. 

My closest relatives are 3 states away, so when I travel w/ a family of 4 and luggage, a larger vehicle is necessary.  A Prius just won't cut it.  It won't work very well when traveling through significant snow accumulation either.  I would have been stuck on my way home from work several times just last month if I was driving some little econobox instead of my 4x4 suv.
The snow plow was invented several years ago you know

Would say we have a above average amount of snow during the winter in Norway and a below average amount of SUVs ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2009-01-07 10:40:28
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6904|132 and Bush

The 2007 European car of the year was the Ford S-Max. I don't think I've ever seen one over here.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2009-01-07 10:47:55
Varegg
Support fanatic :-)
+2,206|7113|Nårvei

Kmarion wrote:

The 2007 European car of the year was the Ford S-Max. I don't think I've ever seen one over here.
And Prius in 2005

New model coming sometime this year ...
Wait behind the line ..............................................................
2009-01-07 10:50:23
SgtHeihn
Should have ducked
+394|6790|Ham Lake, MN (Fucking Cold)

Kmarion wrote:

The 2007 European car of the year was the Ford S-Max. I don't think I've ever seen one over here.
You gotta love how they keep their insanely fuel saving cars in Europe. I do understand that the reason they are not bringing that 65mpg diesel here because of the fuel standards, but come on, this is fricken stupid. The most fuel economic car they have here is a 30mpg.

 

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