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2008-12-20 17:49:07
Zukabazuka
Member
+23|6989
That depends on what they believe in. If you read the bible and still believe fully in then yeah go ahead, but don't try telling me that its 100% correct, consider its from God it sure has some whacky stories.

but then what has god done to us anyway? if he created this world he sure made us have the most terribles stuff happen to us. If god was the only one he would also be satan, because if satan would be able to do bad stuff to people he would have similar powers as god and therefore there would be more than 1. But if there is only one then it means God is Satan.

Also everything has a history, By the bible we just appeared from his magic.
2008-12-20 17:57:10
mikkel
Member
+383|6905

Kmarion wrote:

mikkel wrote:

Kmarion wrote:


Says the guy who got hit by the truck..lol. You missed his point. If you truly believe it how can you not at least make a respectful attempt?
I didn't miss the point at all. It's pretty apparent from my post. Going with his analogy, everyone already -knows- that he believes that they'll be hit by a truck, and the people who don't share his opinions aren't going to be swayed by him or the millions of other people like him regurgitating it. Thinking that dozens of people haven't also made respectful attempts before him is naive. We live in a world of global communication that has made sure that EVERYONE knows what ANYONE believes. The days of going door to door are over.
The presumption that everyone has attempted to share the same message is not only naive it's arrogant.
If presuming that widely available and advertised ideas haven't been presented to most people is naive and arrogant, then you're saying that presumption as a concept is negative, which it isn't. Conversely, if the presumption that everyone has attempted to share the same message is naive and arrogant, then the presumption that the message hasn't been shared is equally naive and arrogant. You present no reason for why this is only true in the former case.

Kmarion wrote:

My point, which seems to be largely overlooked in this thread, is how you present your beliefs. This has little to do with whether you accept them or not. Religion, or lack thereof, is something people hold at "the core of their very being" (thanks Cam). The disrespect by both the religious and nontypes cuts to the very center of each of us. "Thanks but no thanks" has been replaced with an out of control level of resentment and disdain. That animosity has only served to separate us and spread intolerance.
People will only say "thanks, but no thanks" so many times. You cannot seriously believe that the resentment and animosity arose out of nothing. The time for preaching is over, and the negative reaction is evidence to that, and a hint to stop it that certain people don't seem to get.
2008-12-20 18:48:16
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6905|132 and Bush

mikkel wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

mikkel wrote:

I didn't miss the point at all. It's pretty apparent from my post. Going with his analogy, everyone already -knows- that he believes that they'll be hit by a truck, and the people who don't share his opinions aren't going to be swayed by him or the millions of other people like him regurgitating it. Thinking that dozens of people haven't also made respectful attempts before him is naive. We live in a world of global communication that has made sure that EVERYONE knows what ANYONE believes. The days of going door to door are over.
The presumption that everyone has attempted to share the same message is not only naive it's arrogant.
If presuming that widely available and advertised ideas haven't been presented to most people is naive and arrogant, then you're saying that presumption as a concept is negative, which it isn't. Conversely, if the presumption that everyone has attempted to share the same message is naive and arrogant, then the presumption that the message hasn't been shared is equally naive and arrogant. You present no reason for why this is only true in the former case.
Your problem of assumption in either regard can easily be solved by denying the offer. But to operate without posing the question is presumptuous. I highly doubt everyone has taken it upon themselves to research every facet of every belief. Not everyone has the time or the opportunity to do so. More importantly, because of this age of "global communication" that we live in there is a high level of misinformation out there (such as Christians don't believe there were dinosaurs). I see it everyday and it is even evident in this forum. The point is to clarify these misconceptions and to gain a greater understanding. The best way to do this in my opinion is with interaction among said believers. Without a personal commitment to understand the beliefs of others through direct contact or reaching out is in my mind presumptuous and disrespectful. Not everything can be learned over the internet, in a book, or on TV. This is especially true in matters of religion. Even in a world of global communication.

mikkel wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

My point, which seems to be largely overlooked in this thread, is how you present your beliefs. This has little to do with whether you accept them or not. Religion, or lack thereof, is something people hold at "the core of their very being" (thanks Cam). The disrespect by both the religious and nontypes cuts to the very center of each of us. "Thanks but no thanks" has been replaced with an out of control level of resentment and disdain. That animosity has only served to separate us and spread intolerance.
People will only say "thanks, but no thanks" so many times. You cannot seriously believe that the resentment and animosity arose out of nothing. The time for preaching is over, and the negative reaction is evidence to that, and a hint to stop it that certain people don't seem to get.
I believe it arises from a number of things. Part of which is what I am trying to explain here in this thread. The disrespectful approach has led to inflammatory behavior on both sides. It doesn't necessarily take repetition, it could be one bad experience.

You continue to miss my larger point. I too am offended by the pushy, overbearing, and even the insulting approach people take in matters of faith. But I am also not angered by a respectful and sometimes repeated offering to share their viewpoints because they truly believe in their mind it is the way to salvation.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-12-21 02:47:52
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6955|USA

Turquoise wrote:

ATG wrote:

It sounds like he came to the realization that " the white hat club " as I call them, aren't offering anything negative. Religion may have caused a lot of problems in the world, but it also gives some people a reason to be good to each other.

Atheists that say they know this or that about the afterlife are as ignorant as Muslims thinking they will get 72 virgins for killing themselves. Agnositics and atheist often feel jealousy towards those with faith. Speaking for myself anyway.
As an atheist, I acknowledge that I don't know anything more than anyone else about the afterlife or god.  Still, I can't say I feel jealous of anyone's faith either.

To me, having faith in religion is not something to be envied -- it's quite the opposite.  Having faith actually makes you more gullible in most respects.  It's a lack of faith and a strong sense of skepticism that protects you far better in this world than any faith.

The more you trust people or human institutions like religion, the more you will be taken advantage of and will be disappointed.
Yer right Turquoise, I wonder how many children would be alive today if their parents put their faith in their doctors instead of Jesus.
2008-12-21 02:56:09
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6979|Canberra, AUS
Many, many, many, many more than those supposedly saved by the "miracle of prayer", that's for sure.

Last edited by Spark (2008-12-21 02:56:34)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2008-12-21 03:14:55
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6955|USA

Spark wrote:

Many, many, many, many more than those supposedly saved by the "miracle of prayer", that's for sure.
Not sure, are these parents held accountable for their childrens deaths?
2008-12-21 03:24:51
Zefar
Member
+116|6953|Sweden

ATG wrote:

I'd encourage you guys to check this out.


I'm not saying that I have turned into a jesus freak, but I am reviewing the evidence.

Funny that 99% percent of self proclaimed atheists I have spoken with haven't ever read the bible.

Kinds makes them ignorant on a foundational level.
Look there are few huge reason why some athiest havn't read the bible.

1: They where taught about it in school.
2: The entire scientific community see it as a fairytale.
3: God just refuse to show himself. So why bother reading his book?
4: Every historian can't find like a single evidence of most of the GREAT miracle events in the bible.

So when athiest got all this information, you must wonder, WHY would I bother reading a book that's been debunked over a 1 000 000 times?
What could he find that they have not found out yet? Nothing that's what.

Not to mention a first graders science book about space beats the bible. By then you must ask yourself this. WHY does god have such a huge problem of getting a lot of facts right?
Jesus said that the wind couldn't been see and no one knew where it went. But we do know where the wind goes. Sure we can't see but we know where it goes.
Bible said that the earth is in the middle by saying that it won't be moved.

So saying an athiest is ignorant is kinda bullshit. You religious people thou, we give you TONS and I mean tons of information but what do you do? Push it away and refresh that brains of yours and keep going on.

Well at least you who believe in creationism and that the flood really happened.

As for God like giving us the sole purpose to live according to a book to then after like 6000 years kill of everyone because dooms day is coming what I have heard(Allthou that is bullshit as usuall). Then judge everyone on that day.

Do you people realise how small we are compared to the universe? We are around the size of an atom or less and I'm talking about earth then, when you compare to the space.
You'd think God would want us to do a bit more than life a boring life in this universe.


Oh btw our knownledge about afterlife is this.

We don't know.

We havn't been able to study afterlife and anyone coming back is not good enough. I dunno who said they knew what would happen after death but we just don't know. Though it's a theory that we will just dissapear. Making our 100 years on earth SOOOOO much more valueable than being in a religion.
2008-12-21 03:36:39
mikkel
Member
+383|6905

Kmarion wrote:

mikkel wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

The presumption that everyone has attempted to share the same message is not only naive it's arrogant.
If presuming that widely available and advertised ideas haven't been presented to most people is naive and arrogant, then you're saying that presumption as a concept is negative, which it isn't. Conversely, if the presumption that everyone has attempted to share the same message is naive and arrogant, then the presumption that the message hasn't been shared is equally naive and arrogant. You present no reason for why this is only true in the former case.
Your problem of assumption in either regard can easily be solved by denying the offer. But to operate without posing the question is presumptuous. I highly doubt everyone has taken it upon themselves to research every facet of every belief. Not everyone has the time or the opportunity to do so. More importantly, because of this age of "global communication" that we live in there is a high level of misinformation out there (such as Christians don't believe there were dinosaurs). I see it everyday and it is even evident in this forum. The point is to clarify these misconceptions and to gain a greater understanding. The best way to do this in my opinion is with interaction among said believers. Without a personal commitment to understand the beliefs of others through direct contact or reaching out is in my mind presumptuous and disrespectful. Not everything can be learned over the internet, in a book, or on TV. This is especially true in matters of religion. Even in a world of global communication.
You doubt that everyone has taken it upon themselves to research every facet of every belief, but that's not what I've been saying. You say that not everyone has the time or the opportunity to do so, but my point is that the vast majority clearly just do not care. I don't think you could find me a single person who isn't aware that a life of unrepented sin will land you an unpleasant afterlife in many religions, but it wouldn't take you two minutes to find someone who simply doesn't care enough about it enough to want to research it.

Religion is no different from anything else. If people haven't taken the time to learn something, and they aren't in a position where they feel that they need the knowledge, they typically aren't too interested in being lectured, and the vast majority will rightly see it as being imposing. It's simply indecent, and good intentions and indecency are not mutually exclusive.

I'm just as annoyed with religious preachers as I am with commercials on TV.

Kmarion wrote:

mikkel wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

My point, which seems to be largely overlooked in this thread, is how you present your beliefs. This has little to do with whether you accept them or not. Religion, or lack thereof, is something people hold at "the core of their very being" (thanks Cam). The disrespect by both the religious and nontypes cuts to the very center of each of us. "Thanks but no thanks" has been replaced with an out of control level of resentment and disdain. That animosity has only served to separate us and spread intolerance.
People will only say "thanks, but no thanks" so many times. You cannot seriously believe that the resentment and animosity arose out of nothing. The time for preaching is over, and the negative reaction is evidence to that, and a hint to stop it that certain people don't seem to get.
I believe it arises from a number of things. Part of which is what I am trying to explain here in this thread. The disrespectful approach has led to inflammatory behavior on both sides. It doesn't necessarily take repetition, it could be one bad experience.

You continue to miss my larger point. I too am offended by the pushy, overbearing, and even the insulting approach people take in matters of faith. But I am also not angered by a respectful and sometimes repeated offering to share their viewpoints because they truly believe in their mind it is the way to salvation.
I haven't missed your larger point. I get precisely what you're saying. The fact of the matter, though, is that if everyone who thought they had the way to salvation started preaching to people, you would never hear the end of it. If people need religious salvation, they already know where to get it.

Last edited by mikkel (2008-12-21 03:40:43)

2008-12-21 04:44:50
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6410|eXtreme to the maX

Turquoise wrote:

When you live in the Bible Belt like me, mentioning you're atheist is kind of like revealing that you're gay.  So, I'm very careful in who I tell I'm atheist.
Are you sure you're in America?
Sounds more like Iran TBH.

Personally I think if the Good Lord hadn't intended us to do weird and kinky stuff he wouldn't have given us the urges in the first place.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-12-21 04:47:56)

Fuck Israel
2008-12-21 05:02:51
Zefar
Member
+116|6953|Sweden

Dilbert_X wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

When you live in the Bible Belt like me, mentioning you're atheist is kind of like revealing that you're gay.  So, I'm very careful in who I tell I'm atheist.
Are you sure you're in America?
Sounds more like Iran TBH.

Personally I think if the Good Lord hadn't intended us to do weird and kinky stuff he wouldn't have given us the urges in the first place.
Actually he might be telling the truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbjIYvXpvLM

Sometimes religions just go to far.
2008-12-21 05:14:09
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6797|Connecticut

Dilbert_X wrote:

Personally I think if the Good Lord hadn't intended us to do weird and kinky stuff he wouldn't have given us the urges in the first place.
What, like doing it in the back of a Volkswagon?
Malloy must go
2008-12-21 05:35:30
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6410|eXtreme to the maX

Nutz wrote:

What, like doing it in the back of a Volkswagon?
If you say so.
Fuck Israel
2008-12-21 05:58:19
deeznutz1245
Connecticut: our chimps are stealin yo' faces.
+483|6797|Connecticut

Dilbert_X wrote:

Nutz wrote:

What, like doing it in the back of a Volkswagon?
If you say so.
I take it you never saw Mallrats. Its kind of a joke that goes with the movie.
Malloy must go
2008-12-21 06:56:50
Bell
Frosties > Cornflakes
+362|6853|UK

Zefar wrote:

2: The entire scientific community see it as a fairytale.
Really? 

Disbelief in God by Academics    Discipline      %
Physics     40.8
Chemistry     26.6
Biology     41.0
Overall     37.6


Sociology     34.0
Economics        31.7
Political Science     27.0
Psychology     33.0
Overall     31.2

Your looking at about a third of them being specifically atheists.  Granted, that table does not go into specifics about what they they do believe.



3.  This is a bit off aswell.  Your looking for a pagen God.  The God in the bible isnt the magic sky daddy that, admitedly, even many christians think he is.  I believe it is in deutoronmy where God talks about being a rock, so if you have ever been to utah I suppose there is a 100% theist population?

Even if he was, I doubt an appearance by God would sway many strong atheists.  It wouldnt be a credible testimony anyway, since the supposed personal experiences of believers is never given any gravitas.

Martyn
2008-12-21 07:51:42
usmarine
Banned
+2,785|7066

Nuts!
2008-12-21 10:18:50
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|7070|Cambridge (UK)

deeznutz1245 wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Nutz wrote:

What, like doing it in the back of a Volkswagon?
If you say so.
I take it you never saw Mallrats. Its kind of a joke that goes with the movie.
What, like doing it in the back of a Volkswagon?
2008-12-21 14:25:58
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7046|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
considering it's "Oíche Grianstad an Gheimhridh"or " the winter Solstice night" - here in the pagan celtic sense -  when the darkness is most powerful this is a great conversation to be having!..
2008-12-21 15:08:24
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6905|132 and Bush

mikkel wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

mikkel wrote:

If presuming that widely available and advertised ideas haven't been presented to most people is naive and arrogant, then you're saying that presumption as a concept is negative, which it isn't. Conversely, if the presumption that everyone has attempted to share the same message is naive and arrogant, then the presumption that the message hasn't been shared is equally naive and arrogant. You present no reason for why this is only true in the former case.
Your problem of assumption in either regard can easily be solved by denying the offer. But to operate without posing the question is presumptuous. I highly doubt everyone has taken it upon themselves to research every facet of every belief. Not everyone has the time or the opportunity to do so. More importantly, because of this age of "global communication" that we live in there is a high level of misinformation out there (such as Christians don't believe there were dinosaurs). I see it everyday and it is even evident in this forum. The point is to clarify these misconceptions and to gain a greater understanding. The best way to do this in my opinion is with interaction among said believers. Without a personal commitment to understand the beliefs of others through direct contact or reaching out is in my mind presumptuous and disrespectful. Not everything can be learned over the internet, in a book, or on TV. This is especially true in matters of religion. Even in a world of global communication.
You doubt that everyone has taken it upon themselves to research every facet of every belief, but that's not what I've been saying. You say that not everyone has the time or the opportunity to do so, but my point is that the vast majority clearly just do not care. I don't think you could find me a single person who isn't aware that a life of unrepented sin will land you an unpleasant afterlife in many religions, but it wouldn't take you two minutes to find someone who simply doesn't care enough about it enough to want to research it.
So now it's not a matter of having the information available, it's just not caring? I understand that some people are content with their willful ignorance. They do not care enough to find out what drives the majority of the world. That is a fact of life and unfortunately it has historically yielded more ignorance. This is not something you can escape. If more of us cared to learn this world would be a lot more peaceful. Sadly I must agree with you. Too many of us are happily marinating in persistent oblivion. That takes humanity nowhere.

Religion is no different from anything else. If people haven't taken the time to learn something, and they aren't in a position where they feel that they need the knowledge, they typically aren't too interested in being lectured, and the vast majority will rightly see it as being imposing. It's simply indecent, and good intentions and indecency are not mutually exclusive.

I'm just as annoyed with religious preachers as I am with commercials on TV.
Religion is very different. I know not of one person who has blown up his neighbors marketplace because he was pissed off at a Burger King commercial.

Kmarion wrote:

mikkel wrote:

People will only say "thanks, but no thanks" so many times. You cannot seriously believe that the resentment and animosity arose out of nothing. The time for preaching is over, and the negative reaction is evidence to that, and a hint to stop it that certain people don't seem to get.
I believe it arises from a number of things. Part of which is what I am trying to explain here in this thread. The disrespectful approach has led to inflammatory behavior on both sides. It doesn't necessarily take repetition, it could be one bad experience.

You continue to miss my larger point. I too am offended by the pushy, overbearing, and even the insulting approach people take in matters of faith. But I am also not angered by a respectful and sometimes repeated offering to share their viewpoints because they truly believe in their mind it is the way to salvation.
I haven't missed your larger point. I get precisely what you're saying. The fact of the matter, though, is that if everyone who thought they had the way to salvation started preaching to people, you would never hear the end of it. If people need religious salvation, they already know where to get it.
Clearly you have. I think you need to revist the OP. This topic isn't about converting the masses. Part of the respect is presenting your views at the appropriate time, in a gentle manner, and to those who are willing. It has much to do with presentation. You can understand something without agreeing or condoning it. That is how you reconcile your differences.
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-12-21 18:22:19
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7020
My question... if religion is a joke... why do the atheists spend so much time and effort talking down about it...
and i often wonder... why are most of the atheists so cranky and bitter... and i don't mean any of the happy go lucky atheists that post in this forum...lol

weak minded people find comfort in their religion and there guns... leave us alone in our misguided peacefulness...
Love is the answer
2008-12-21 18:27:22
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6979|Canberra, AUS

[TUF]Catbox wrote:

My question... if religion is a joke... why do the atheists spend so much time and effort talking down about it...
and i often wonder... why are most of the atheists so cranky and bitter... and i don't mean any of the happy go lucky atheists that post in this forum...lol

weak minded people find comfort in their religion and there guns... leave us alone in our misguided peacefulness...
Because too many take it upon themselves to shove it down everyone's throats.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
2008-12-21 21:27:23
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6709|North Carolina

Stingray24 wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

Having faith actually makes you more gullible in most respects.  It's a lack of faith and a strong sense of skepticism that protects you far better in this world than any faith.  The more you trust people or human institutions like religion, the more you will be taken advantage of and will be disappointed.
For that to be true, one must assume that those who have chosen faith have not made their decision based on thoughtful consideration.  Though you are free to disagree with their conclusion, I do not believe that you can defend the assertion that a presence or absence of faith makes a person more gullible.  It goes without saying that trusting people or human institutions inevitably results in disappointment.  Skepticism is not a mindset reserved for agnostics or atheists.  In fact, a healthy skepticism will only strengthen one’s faith because they will have tested their beliefs.
Well, I was referring to most religious people.  Obviously, not everyone who's religious is gullible.  I have a few close friends that are religious and actually quite perceptive.  I'm just referring to the typical religious person.

Granted, the typical person (religious or otherwise) is gullible.
2008-12-21 21:29:32
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6709|North Carolina

lowing wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

ATG wrote:

It sounds like he came to the realization that " the white hat club " as I call them, aren't offering anything negative. Religion may have caused a lot of problems in the world, but it also gives some people a reason to be good to each other.

Atheists that say they know this or that about the afterlife are as ignorant as Muslims thinking they will get 72 virgins for killing themselves. Agnositics and atheist often feel jealousy towards those with faith. Speaking for myself anyway.
As an atheist, I acknowledge that I don't know anything more than anyone else about the afterlife or god.  Still, I can't say I feel jealous of anyone's faith either.

To me, having faith in religion is not something to be envied -- it's quite the opposite.  Having faith actually makes you more gullible in most respects.  It's a lack of faith and a strong sense of skepticism that protects you far better in this world than any faith.

The more you trust people or human institutions like religion, the more you will be taken advantage of and will be disappointed.
Yer right Turquoise, I wonder how many children would be alive today if their parents put their faith in their doctors instead of Jesus.
Huh?...  I thought you were atheist as well?

Well, anyway, I'm not sure what your point is here.  Modern medicine saves a lot more lives than faith.
2008-12-21 21:37:40
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6709|North Carolina

Zefar wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Turquoise wrote:

When you live in the Bible Belt like me, mentioning you're atheist is kind of like revealing that you're gay.  So, I'm very careful in who I tell I'm atheist.
Are you sure you're in America?
Sounds more like Iran TBH.

Personally I think if the Good Lord hadn't intended us to do weird and kinky stuff he wouldn't have given us the urges in the first place.
Actually he might be telling the truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbjIYvXpvLM

Sometimes religions just go to far.
I don't want to give the wrong impression here.  It's not that I've been assaulted for mentioning my atheism.  It's just a matter of being treated differently.  People act slightly differently towards you if you're atheist around here.  It's nothing comparable to how gays are treated in Iran, but it can be slightly awkward socially.

I'm sure most of the stuff in that video linked above is primarily isolated incidents.

So, to clarify, yes, gay people generally experience a lot more prejudice than atheists, whether they live in the Bible Belt or somewhere else in America.  This is why I said "kind of like revealing that you're gay", because it would be foolish of me to suggest that the prejudice I experience is on the same level that gay people have to deal with.
2008-12-21 21:43:36
Kmar
Truth is my Bitch
+5,695|6905|132 and Bush

Atheism went mainstream a long time ago. Haven't you guys ever watched Family Guy or South Park? Ripping the traditional ideas of organized religion has become pop culture here.

They are even forming their own congregations.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … rss_nation
Xbone Stormsurgezz
2008-12-21 21:50:53
Turquoise
O Canada
+1,596|6709|North Carolina

Kmarion wrote:

Atheism went mainstream a long time ago. Haven't you guys ever watched Family Guy or South Park? Ripping the traditional ideas of organized religion has become pop culture here.

They are even forming their own congregations.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … rss_nation
Well that kind of defeats the purpose of atheism.  It's supposed to be a personal thing.  It's not supposed to become yet another lobby group or "community."

 

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