A Bipolar Society

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2008-12-19 05:11:41

#126

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6941|USA

Varegg wrote:
lowing wrote:
Varegg wrote:

Nope ... that's not it lowing, atleast not entirely it ... the same scenario goes for most of Europe aswell and we are in much better shape ...
Europe has known terrorism, it has known dictatorships, it has known genocide, it has known civil wars, all in the current life span of your citizens.

America just descovered terrorism in 2001.
Eh ... i think you misunderstand something here lowing ...

*Spain and England have had 1 incident of international terrorism each yes but that hasn't changed much, not the degree of degrading you are referring to in the US or lack of degrading because it happened, pretty much Status quo on that one.

*Dictatorships? ... what countries did you have in mind?

*Genocide happened in the Balkan war quite recently but don't mistake that for a being a civil war because it wasn't and the ripple effects of that genocide has little or nothing to do with the spirit of citizens elsewhere in Europe ...

I think you should look elsewhere for your answer, like maybe the political execution of power and the system of government you currently live under ...

These events happened to the citizens of Europe in less than a life time, if not directly in your countries then in your nieghbors. You have a sense of reality in the world that Americans have been sheltered from mostly because of 2 oceans. THe problems of the world were literally a world away, hence we became complacent, demanding, and entitled to the peace and prosperity in our country.

Look at the stock market and home owndership. There is nothing that guarnetees a return on a house or stocks, yet as Americans when our house looses value or our stocks, we demand answers! It is ok if our profits are someone else's losses, but whne it is OUR losses, we gotta blame someone. We expect everything, we expect positive results in everything. We are spoiled to the core, and have grown accustomed to those spoils.

2008-12-19 05:18:09

#127

Flaming_Maniac: prince of insufficient light; +2,490|6997|67.222.138.85

Varegg wrote:
What Flaming doesn't understand is that socialism has evolved and in many ways very different from the socialism described on wiki, i asked him to elaborate not copy paste old info from random websites, anyone can do that ...

Socialistic capitalism FM, you should study it a tad more before you judge it based on "stone age" information - it has nothing to do with communism or Marxist socialism that you seem to think ...

Turquoise and many other seems to understand the difference, and Turq ... you have corruption all ready, your congress and senate representatives seems to me to just be there for the lobbyist money ...

No, this is my point. Why has Europe been allowed to add social programs and call their government socialist? It fits no socialist definitions, not even close.

"Hey I wore and orange shirt today...I'm a fuckin evolution of a citrus fruit!"

Braddock wrote:
A couple of points...

Flaming Maniac, please stop clinging to the ancient definition of socialism, please. European Governments today embrace modern-day socialism, it is a horse of an entirely different colour to the one described in the history books. Surely you can identify that we are neither Capitalist in the same way as the United States nor Communist in the way the former USSR was? We are moderate Socialists who employ a system of 'Capitalism with a conscience' and this system, my friend, does little or nothing to hold back the individual... au contraire in fact, I am on my way to becoming a Doctor thanks to Socialist support within the education system.

As Turquoise excellently pointed out, we are social beings and we like to have our little cliques. Whether you are in Capitalist America or Communist Russia you will encounter 'old boy' networks that value 'who you know' above 'what you know'. Society naturally segregates, the only difference between Europe and the US is that the US allow societal segregation to follow the law of the balance sheet and those in charge of the big private companies while Europeans try to regulate the process of societal segregation by imposing some sort of human philosophy on the process via elected Government officials and bodies. Each system has pros and cons and as I've said before we all seem happy with the particular system we each have so this thread is ultimately just a glorified pissing contest.

That is the only definition there is.

You are still a capitalist society. Not as cut-throat as the U.S. to be sure, but the changing definition of socialism just so you can get away from any label remotely related to the U.S. is stupid.

As I said I never mentioned Europe in the OP, I only said socialism, by which I mean the definition of socialism. Draw European conclusions all you want, they just aren't there.

lowing wrote:
No, the end goal of anysociety should be to bring us the free will and opportunity to achieve something great, as we, as individuals define that "greatness" for ourselves. We should then be allowed to reap the rewards of our achievments or our failures without govt. trying to impose its "fairness"

I disagree. The only way to achieve anything remotely interesting is to do it through society, individually we can't do anything. The best of us may be able to manipulate society to achieve what they want, but then they bring everyone else along with them.

2008-12-19 05:21:59

#128

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Varegg wrote:
What Flaming doesn't understand is that socialism has evolved and in many ways very different from the socialism described on wiki, i asked him to elaborate not copy paste old info from random websites, anyone can do that ...

Socialistic capitalism FM, you should study it a tad more before you judge it based on "stone age" information - it has nothing to do with communism or Marxist socialism that you seem to think ...

Turquoise and many other seems to understand the difference, and Turq ... you have corruption all ready, your congress and senate representatives seems to me to just be there for the lobbyist money ...
No, this is my point. Why has Europe been allowed to add social programs and call their government socialist? It fits no socialist definitions, not even close.

"Hey I wore and orange shirt today...I'm a fuckin evolution of a citrus fruit!"

Eh ... you clearly don't get it do you FM?

Why has Europe been allowed? ... we have evolved your definition of socialism into socialistic capitalism and that has been my point since the start of this thread but you choose to dismiss it ...

Flaming_Maniac wrote:
You are still a capitalist society. Not as cut-throat as the U.S. to be sure, but the changing definition of socialism just so you can get away from any label remotely related to the U.S. is stupid.

Okay ... now you are just acting stupid i hope ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2008-12-19 05:23:02

#129

DonFck: Hibernator; +3,227|6921|Finland

We don't call ourselves socialist (I'm speaking of my country now, but it does extend to other nations as well), but many Americans do see it that way and therefore call it that. I'd call it left wing capital-socialdemocracy instead, or something.

I need around tree fiddy.

2008-12-19 05:24:56

#130

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6941|USA

DonFck wrote:
We don't call ourselves socialist (I'm speaking of my country now, but it does extend to other nations as well), but many Americans do see it that way and therefore call it that. I'd call it left wing capital-socialdemocracy instead, or something.

I call it fucked up bullshit

2008-12-19 05:25:44

#131

Flaming_Maniac: prince of insufficient light; +2,490|6997|67.222.138.85

Varegg wrote:
Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Varegg wrote:
What Flaming doesn't understand is that socialism has evolved and in many ways very different from the socialism described on wiki, i asked him to elaborate not copy paste old info from random websites, anyone can do that ...

Socialistic capitalism FM, you should study it a tad more before you judge it based on "stone age" information - it has nothing to do with communism or Marxist socialism that you seem to think ...

Turquoise and many other seems to understand the difference, and Turq ... you have corruption all ready, your congress and senate representatives seems to me to just be there for the lobbyist money ...
No, this is my point. Why has Europe been allowed to add social programs and call their government socialist? It fits no socialist definitions, not even close.

"Hey I wore and orange shirt today...I'm a fuckin evolution of a citrus fruit!"
Eh ... you clearly don't get it do you FM?

Why has Europe been allowed? ... we have evolved your definition of socialism into socialistic capitalism and that has been my point since the start of this thread but you choose to dismiss it ...

So where's the proof that the definition changed? Did you ring anyone up to let them know? I certainly didn't get the memo.

You are just labeling yourself as something you are not.

DonFck wrote:
We don't call ourselves socialist (I'm speaking of my country now, but it does extend to other nations as well), but many Americans do see it that way and therefore call it that. I'd call it left wing capital-socialdemocracy instead, or something.

Well I can't say I know what other countries call themselves, even though actually I can't say I've heard anyone in America call a European country socialist. I'm only going by what people say on the forums, and by the voracity of replies I do think many here think they live in a socialist country.

2008-12-19 05:25:56

#132

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

DonFck wrote:
We don't call ourselves socialist (I'm speaking of my country now, but it does extend to other nations as well), but many Americans do see it that way and therefore call it that. I'd call it left wing capital-socialdemocracy instead, or something.

The name isn't important tbh ... FM is concentrating on the peel rather than the substance

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2008-12-19 05:26:49

#133

Flaming_Maniac: prince of insufficient light; +2,490|6997|67.222.138.85

Varegg wrote:
DonFck wrote:
We don't call ourselves socialist (I'm speaking of my country now, but it does extend to other nations as well), but many Americans do see it that way and therefore call it that. I'd call it left wing capital-socialdemocracy instead, or something.
The name isn't important tbh ... FM is concentrating on the peel rather than the substance

The name is very important when I say "socialist countries" and you say "that shit doesn't apply to us". I wasn't talking to you.

2008-12-19 05:31:25

#134

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Varegg wrote:
DonFck wrote:
We don't call ourselves socialist (I'm speaking of my country now, but it does extend to other nations as well), but many Americans do see it that way and therefore call it that. I'd call it left wing capital-socialdemocracy instead, or something.
The name isn't important tbh ... FM is concentrating on the peel rather than the substance
The name is very important when I say "socialist countries" and you say "that shit doesn't apply to us". I wasn't talking to you.

Are you really this dense ... SOCIALISTIC CAPITALISM ... it's been around this forum since prolly the start ... and socialistic capitalism is really what socialism in general is incorporated into Europe today, an improved version of it hence why the label have changed ...

It looks like an Orange, it tastes like an Orange but now we tap on bottles and call it Orange juice ... but it's still a fucking Orange ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2008-12-19 05:31:43

#135

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6845

lowing wrote:
DonFck wrote:
We don't call ourselves socialist (I'm speaking of my country now, but it does extend to other nations as well), but many Americans do see it that way and therefore call it that. I'd call it left wing capital-socialdemocracy instead, or something.
I call it fucked up bullshit

And we'd call it the best way to manage a nation. It didn't sound like 'fucked up bullshit' when you were gushing about Germany a few months ago.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-12-19 05:32:31)

2008-12-19 05:35:56

#136

Flaming_Maniac: prince of insufficient light; +2,490|6997|67.222.138.85

Varegg wrote:
Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Varegg wrote:

The name isn't important tbh ... FM is concentrating on the peel rather than the substance
The name is very important when I say "socialist countries" and you say "that shit doesn't apply to us". I wasn't talking to you.
Are you really this dense ... SOCIALISTIC CAPITALISM ... it's been around this forum since prolly the start ... and socialistic capitalism is really what socialism in general is incorporated into Europe today, an improved version of it hence why the label have changed ...

It looks like an Orange, it tastes like an Orange but now we tap on bottles and call it Orange juice ... but it's still a fucking Orange ...

Well now we're getting somewhere, at least your socialism can stand to be next to our dirty capitalism.

Socialist capitalism (whatever the fuck that is, I would be very interested in knowing) is still very, very different from socialism, just as East is very different from Northeast. You place more emphasis on social programs than pure capitalism, or even American capitalism, fine. I still said socialism in the OP.

2008-12-19 05:40:19

#137

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6845

Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Socialist capitalism (whatever the fuck that is, I would be very interested in knowing) is

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl= … =h&z=4

www.continental.com

Tickets vary from about €300 to over €1000 for economy class. Come and see for yourself.

2008-12-19 05:49:43

#138

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

Yes FM it is very different from socialism in it's pure marxist form and we have never stated otherwise ... that's why we constantly call and label it as socialistic capitalism or capitalistic socialism ...

We have never said or stated anywhere on this forum that we are maxists ... we have called it just socialism but in that applies that it is the evolved version and it has been so for a very long time ... in the late 40s, the 50s and 60s socialism in Europe has transformed into the shape we practice today ... hell even communist China have reformed from Leninism into a capitalistic form, same with Russia to a degree, North Korea and Albania is the last two countries in the world that still practice an unchanged version of communism, not even Cuba does that any more ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2008-12-19 05:55:37

#139

Flaming_Maniac: prince of insufficient light; +2,490|6997|67.222.138.85

Varegg wrote:
Yes FM it is very different from socialism in it's pure marxist form and we have never stated otherwise ... that's why we constantly call and label it as socialistic capitalism or capitalistic socialism ...

No, you haven't.

Post #1 - I say socialism.

Post #32 - Take the socialism mentioned in the OP and relate it to European countries.

Post #40 - More defense of socialism from someone who isn't socialist.

Post #42 - Implied that governments in Europe are socialist, therefore you would know what socialism is compared to me.

etc. etc., no need to go on.

2008-12-19 06:02:06

#140

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Varegg wrote:
Yes FM it is very different from socialism in it's pure marxist form and we have never stated otherwise ... that's why we constantly call and label it as socialistic capitalism or capitalistic socialism ...
No, you haven't.

Post #1 - I say socialism.

Post #32 - Take the socialism mentioned in the OP and relate it to European countries.

Post #40 - More defense of socialism from someone who isn't socialist.

Post #42 - Implied that governments in Europe are socialist, therefore you would know what socialism is compared to me.

etc. etc., no need to go on.

We have a very clear vision of what we mean when we say it FM ...

Refer to post #135 and #139 if you are still in doubt ... get your nose out of the textbook and into real life FM, a theory and it's practise are not the same and by the sound of it you know very little but the textbook version ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2008-12-19 06:10:57

#141

Flaming_Maniac: prince of insufficient light; +2,490|6997|67.222.138.85

Varegg wrote:
We have a very clear vision of what we mean when we say it FM ...

Refer to post #135 and #139 if you are still in doubt ... get your nose out of the textbook and into real life FM, a theory and it's practise are not the same and by the sound of it you know very little but the textbook version ...

Oh, you want me to look at the posts where you start backtracking and going from socialism -> socialist capitalism, later qualifying it with "that's why we constantly call and label it as socialistic capitalism or capitalistic socialism". Yet every post up to that point the term "socialist capitalism" was never used.

You and many others were either a) misusing terms or b) actually think you live in a socialist government.

2008-12-19 06:18:16

#142

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6941|USA

CameronPoe wrote:
lowing wrote:
DonFck wrote:
We don't call ourselves socialist (I'm speaking of my country now, but it does extend to other nations as well), but many Americans do see it that way and therefore call it that. I'd call it left wing capital-socialdemocracy instead, or something.
I call it fucked up bullshit
And we'd call it the best way to manage a nation. It didn't sound like 'fucked up bullshit' when you were gushing about Germany a few months ago.

I loved Germany no doubt, but I didn't have to work to finance everyone who doesn't while I was there, either.

2008-12-19 06:35:53

#143

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6845

lowing wrote:
I loved Germany no doubt, but I didn't have to work to finance everyone who doesn't while I was there, either.

And thus continues you're ignorance of our reality.

2008-12-19 06:38:45

#144

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6941|USA

CameronPoe wrote:
lowing wrote:
I loved Germany no doubt, but I didn't have to work to finance everyone who doesn't while I was there, either.
And thus continues you're ignorance of our reality.

Oh so you do not pay out the ass in taxes, While EVERYONE enjoys its benefits? I see, my mistake

2008-12-19 06:39:59

#145

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6845

lowing wrote:
Oh so you do not pay out the ass in taxes, While EVERYONE enjoys its benefits? I see, my mistake

I wouldn't expect someone with such a binary mind to appreciate the finer elements and benefits of the system.

2008-12-19 06:46:23

#146

Varegg: Support fanatic :-); +2,206|7100|Nårvei

Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Varegg wrote:
We have a very clear vision of what we mean when we say it FM ...

Refer to post #135 and #139 if you are still in doubt ... get your nose out of the textbook and into real life FM, a theory and it's practise are not the same and by the sound of it you know very little but the textbook version ...
Oh, you want me to look at the posts where you start backtracking and going from socialism -> socialist capitalism, later qualifying it with "that's why we constantly call and label it as socialistic capitalism or capitalistic socialism". Yet every post up to that point the term "socialist capitalism" was never used.

You and many others were either a) misusing terms or b) actually think you live in a socialist government.

Actually no ... when we speak of the socialism we practice it is the evolved version of it not the textbook version you believe it is, how many times must i repeat that for you?

So it's rather your misinterpretation of the terms that exist and the practice of them ...

Wait behind the line ..............................................................

2008-12-19 07:03:33

#147

lowing: Banned; +1,662|6941|USA

CameronPoe wrote:
lowing wrote:
Oh so you do not pay out the ass in taxes, While EVERYONE enjoys its benefits? I see, my mistake
I wouldn't expect someone with such a binary mind to appreciate the finer elements and benefits of the system.

Then we agree, you DO pay out the ass in taxes so EVERYONE that does not can benefit.

2008-12-19 07:05:32

#148

AussieReaper: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°); +5,761|6443|what

lowing wrote:
Then we agree, you DO pay out the ass in taxes so EVERYONE that does not can benefit.

fix'd

2008-12-19 07:05:52

#149

CameronPoe: Member; +2,925|6845

lowing wrote:
CameronPoe wrote:
lowing wrote:
Oh so you do not pay out the ass in taxes, While EVERYONE enjoys its benefits? I see, my mistake
I wouldn't expect someone with such a binary mind to appreciate the finer elements and benefits of the system.
Then we agree, you DO pay out the ass in taxes so EVERYONE that does not can benefit.

It's all relative. We don't feel we pay out the ass because that's what we are accustomed to. Your problem is that you are viewing things in a purely American paradigm. And what are thousands upon thousands of people leaving school and university supposed to do as companies all over the world shed thousands of jobs? Be 'personally responsible' for relying on their parents? Eat each other as they slowly die off as the job rejection letters begin to pile up? As long as they're showing proof of job applications they should be provided for. The economy in Europe is meant to serve the interests of society and the individual, each of which overlap, but require balancing.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-12-19 07:18:14)

2008-12-19 11:38:07

#150

13/f/taiwan: Member; +940|5988

Passing judgments on another country/continent and its people when you have never been there.

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Varegg wrote:

lowing wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

DonFck wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Varegg wrote:

DonFck wrote:

DonFck wrote:

Varegg wrote:

DonFck wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Varegg wrote:

DonFck wrote:

lowing wrote:

DonFck wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Varegg wrote:

Varegg wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

DonFck wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Varegg wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

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