whats govt propaganda?Scorpion0x17 wrote:
So, have you read the other, or like I said, is government propaganda your only reading material now?
The problem is your opinion about it means jack unless you've actually been in the shit.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
And, yes, it is holier than thou. You don't actually have to actually go to war to understand the Geneva Convention.
It's easy to talk about human rights, patriotism, fairness, and a host of other lofty ideals. It's a whole different story to be put in extreme circumstances and be able to walk the walk.
No, I'm sorry, it doesn't.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
The problem is your opinion about it means jack unless you've actually been in the shit.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
And, yes, it is holier than thou. You don't actually have to actually go to war to understand the Geneva Convention.
It's easy to talk about human rights, patriotism, fairness, and a host of other lofty ideals. It's a whole different story to be put in extreme circumstances and be able to walk the walk.
One of the key things that lifts us humans above the animals is our ability to project - to put ourselves, in our minds, into situations we've never physically been in.
If we abandon that, we may as well go back to swinging through the trees.
what kind of nonsense is that?Scorpion0x17 wrote:
No, I'm sorry, it doesn't.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
The problem is your opinion about it means jack unless you've actually been in the shit.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
And, yes, it is holier than thou. You don't actually have to actually go to war to understand the Geneva Convention.
It's easy to talk about human rights, patriotism, fairness, and a host of other lofty ideals. It's a whole different story to be put in extreme circumstances and be able to walk the walk.
One of the key things that lifts us humans above the animals is our ability to project - to put ourselves, in our minds, into situations we've never physically been in.
If we abandon that, we may as well go back to swinging through the trees.
It's not true until it's been tried. It's easy to say you would return a wallet with $1000 in it to its rightful owner, but I don't believe you will until you are actually in the situation and prove yourself.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
No, I'm sorry, it doesn't.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
The problem is your opinion about it means jack unless you've actually been in the shit.Scorpion0x17 wrote:
And, yes, it is holier than thou. You don't actually have to actually go to war to understand the Geneva Convention.
It's easy to talk about human rights, patriotism, fairness, and a host of other lofty ideals. It's a whole different story to be put in extreme circumstances and be able to walk the walk.
One of the key things that lifts us humans above the animals is our ability to project - to put ourselves, in our minds, into situations we've never physically been in.
If we abandon that, we may as well go back to swinging through the trees.
We aren't much better than animals when put in base circumstances such as war. Don't put us on a pedestal.
It's known as empathy. Don't worry, you'll never use it. *sets troll bait*usmarine wrote:
what kind of nonsense is that?
It's their job. It's what they get trained to do and what they get paid to do. If they can't do it properly then they shouldn't be in the military - they're obviously not professional or disciplined enough. I'm an engineer - I don't whine about having to obey the laws of physics/thermodynamics/etc.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
It's a whole different story to be put in extreme circumstances and be able to walk the walk.
oh ya? lolTheAussieReaper wrote:
It's known as empathy. Don't worry, you'll never use it. *sets troll bait*usmarine wrote:
what kind of nonsense is that?
Not only easy to say, but easy to do. I know, I have. Actually, I don't know how much was in it, but I saw someone drop a fat wallet once - no-one else was around - I could have picked it up and went on my merry way - but I didn't - I called after them.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
It's easy to say you would return a wallet with $1000 in it to its rightful owner
Good lord I hope you know that's a bad metaphor.CameronPoe wrote:
It's their job. It's what they get trained to do and what they get paid to do. If they can't do it properly then they shouldn't be in the military - they're obviously not professional or disciplined enough. I'm an engineer - I don't whine about having to obey the laws of physics/thermodynamics/etc.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
It's a whole different story to be put in extreme circumstances and be able to walk the walk.
You can't be trained to kill another human. It's kind of disgusting for you to say that someone can be professional or disciplined enough to deal with that kind of shit with grace. Fucked up in the head enough maybe.
You're going to tell me you've been shot at now and made clear-headed, moral decisions?Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Not only easy to say, but easy to do. I know, I have. Actually, I don't know how much was in it, but I saw someone drop a fat wallet once - no-one else was around - I could have picked it up and went on my merry way - but I didn't - I called after them.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
It's easy to say you would return a wallet with $1000 in it to its rightful owner
That's what they have post-warfare counselling for. If you enter the army not mentally prepared - in a cold, callous and detached manner - to take another life by the end of training then you are no fucking good to any army of worth. Deal with the emotional end when the job is done. That's what you're getting paid for.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Good lord I hope you know that's a bad metaphor.
You can't be trained to kill another human. It's kind of disgusting for you to say that someone can be professional or disciplined enough to deal with that kind of shit with grace. Fucked up in the head enough maybe.
PS Rules of Engagement != 'Lofty' Ideals -> It's your fucking job. Can't handle it -> warning or the sack.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-11-13 16:56:58)
i reckon you would if your opponent did not have to follow those rules. yes i know you are going to say that is not true. but we all know the real answer.CameronPoe wrote:
I'm an engineer - I don't whine about having to obey the laws of physics/thermodynamics/etc.
That doesn't mean you lower yourself to the standard of your enemy, however.usmarine wrote:
i reckon you would if your opponent did not have to follow those rules. yes i know you are going to say that is not true. but we all know the real answer.CameronPoe wrote:
I'm an engineer - I don't whine about having to obey the laws of physics/thermodynamics/etc.
Psychologically impossible. An ideal preached maybe, but not truly possible.CameronPoe wrote:
That's what they have post-warfare counselling for. If you enter the army not mentally prepared - in a cold, callous and detached manner - to take another life by the end of training then you are no fucking good to any army of worth. Deal with the emotional end when the job is done. That's what you're getting paid for.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Good lord I hope you know that's a bad metaphor.
You can't be trained to kill another human. It's kind of disgusting for you to say that someone can be professional or disciplined enough to deal with that kind of shit with grace. Fucked up in the head enough maybe.
I can't believe liberal CP thinks soldiers are robots.
Couldn't handle the RoE marine? Couldn't handle the terms of reference of your job? Just curious.usmarine wrote:
i reckon you would if your opponent did not have to follow those rules. yes i know you are going to say that is not true. but we all know the real answer.
No, I haven't.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
You're going to tell me you've been shot at now and made clear-headed, moral decisions?Scorpion0x17 wrote:
Not only easy to say, but easy to do. I know, I have. Actually, I don't know how much was in it, but I saw someone drop a fat wallet once - no-one else was around - I could have picked it up and went on my merry way - but I didn't - I called after them.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
It's easy to say you would return a wallet with $1000 in it to its rightful owner
But, as I've already stated, that doesn't stop me being able to imagine being shot at.
But I have had a (loaded) gun pointed at me.
And I am able to imagine the additional fear of knowing people with guns are trying to kill me.
'Cos, yes, extreme fear is something I have experienced.
Hell, I've even thought "I'm about to die".
Now, of course, I can't say 100% for sure exactly how I'd react, but I do have a pretty good idea.
If it's psychologically 'impossible' Einstein then I would ask you to look at the casualty figures for WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, the Iraq Invasion, the Afghanistan Invasion, the Chinese Civil War, etc., etc., etc. .... I'm pretty sure the many thousands of veterans didn't just end it all with their inner anguish upon their return home. Yes killing is a violation of the civilised element of your mind: but a soldiers job is to dehumanise himself to a level where he is psychologically capable of it - otherwise he's a shit soldier.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Psychologically impossible. An ideal preached maybe, but not truly possible.
I can't believe liberal CP thinks soldiers are robots.
Psychologically impossible to deal with it completely on the spot, certainly not to do it at all or function relatively normally.CameronPoe wrote:
If it's psychologically 'impossible' Einstein then I would ask you to look at the casualty figures for WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, the Iraq Invasion, the Afghanistan Invasion, the Chinese Civil War, etc., etc., etc. .... I'm pretty sure the many thousands of veterans didn't just end it all with their inner anguish upon their return home. Yes killing is a violation of the civilised element of your mind: but a soldiers job is to dehumanise himself to a level where he is psychologically capable of it - otherwise he's a shit soldier.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Psychologically impossible. An ideal preached maybe, but not truly possible.
I can't believe liberal CP thinks soldiers are robots.
You can't "dehumanize" yourself. Come on man.
No, but a guy who used to work for me is there (NOT wearing orange coveralls).TheAussieReaper wrote:
Too bad that pic isn't from GITMO.
I said Club Gitmo. Clearly you've never been?
No, but every person in uniform is trained on the GC annually.oug wrote:
coz a copy of the geneva convention is given to every man in uniform
And if my aunt had balls, she'd be my uncle.Varegg wrote:
If more people switched their gun for a book we wouldn't need any "experts" ...
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
i made it thru two wars....so i reckon i could.CameronPoe wrote:
Couldn't handle the RoE marine? Couldn't handle the terms of reference of your job? Just curious.usmarine wrote:
i reckon you would if your opponent did not have to follow those rules. yes i know you are going to say that is not true. but we all know the real answer.
now. my whole point in this thread was my squad in afghan took an amazing amount of fire from a town back in early 2002. no kia's but two guys were hit. we didnt fire back because there were civilians all around. so, i dont like when people tell me about "the rules" of war when they have never had bullets flying all around them yet had it in them not to fire back. we broke off contact. set up a perimeter with ambush sites. then nailed those fuckers when they decided to move.
so, you are trying to fight people who dont give one rats shit about civilians at all. those are the people i bitch about. why wouldnt i?
You can't "dehumanize yourself," as you put it, but you can compartmentalize your feelings and emotions. Easily. Many of us do it all the time. Not only in combat situations, but in medical ones as well. Somepeople call it 'professional detachment. It enables you to deal with some really disgusting and distasteful things. You cannot keep it bottled up inside, however; you need to take it out eventually and deal with it or it will eat you up inside.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Psychologically impossible to deal with it completely on the spot, certainly not to do it at all or function relatively normally.CameronPoe wrote:
If it's psychologically 'impossible' Einstein then I would ask you to look at the casualty figures for WWI, WWII, the Korean War, the Vietnam War, the Gulf War, the Iraq Invasion, the Afghanistan Invasion, the Chinese Civil War, etc., etc., etc. .... I'm pretty sure the many thousands of veterans didn't just end it all with their inner anguish upon their return home. Yes killing is a violation of the civilised element of your mind: but a soldiers job is to dehumanise himself to a level where he is psychologically capable of it - otherwise he's a shit soldier.Flaming_Maniac wrote:
Psychologically impossible. An ideal preached maybe, but not truly possible.
I can't believe liberal CP thinks soldiers are robots.
You can't "dehumanize" yourself. Come on man.
There is another side of the coin, and that is dehumanizing the enemy. They are not people; they are krauts, japs, Charlie, VC, raghead, 'tango,' and any other number of names tracing back through history. This is an unconscious effort of soldiers to psyche themselves up for the taking of another life. They are not a real person, they are just a ________ (insert label here). When you view your target as an actual human being, with a family, a history, and feelings, they become much more difficult to kill. Not imossible, but more difficult. This detachment is what enables soldiers (no matter what the name) to be able to kill the enemy without being sociopaths. Many of us are actually pretty polite people.
Some of these guys were caught with rifles in their hand activly shooting at our soldiers. In a normal war we would hold them to the end of hostilities and return them at the end of it, but what do you do with them if they have no country they fight for with a war that doesn't have a definite end?oug wrote:
How else would you two describe a prison where a trial is not an option and where one is kept without any charges pressed against him?
I call that a concentration camp. How naive am I.
Sadly some people will only learn by first hand experience. Words just don't cut it. Much like babies, that is.
Keep them for the rest of their lives? I'll be fine with that as long as there's some battlefield proof (a sworn statement would be enough for me). And if there's enough proof for a military tribunal then kill them.
I could see the ACLU defending them if they were brought to prisons in the mainland of the United States...lets hope Obama isn't that dumb.
for all the bf2(the game) war veterans who shot at pixels and all you have to worry about is a 15 second respawn and having someone teabagging you...
save your, hug a terrorist and find out why he's mad... bullshit... we are all lucky that people like marine and others like him are out there defending our right to type stupid posts back and forth in relative peace... I can't even imagine how fucking scared i would be in a combat situation...knowing that people are shooting to kill me dead... or blow me up or cut my head off... and i guarantee all of you would be scared shitless... so give it a rest...
it's a war... these people that are at guantanimo were not rounded up at a shopping mall... they were deemed enemy combatants... sucks they have to be in prison but they are being fed clothed and treated decently...
i'm not looking for a hundred posts about their rights and blah blah blah... what should we do with these enemy combatants???? What are your perfect solutions to this issue... ??? real solutions only....
save your, hug a terrorist and find out why he's mad... bullshit... we are all lucky that people like marine and others like him are out there defending our right to type stupid posts back and forth in relative peace... I can't even imagine how fucking scared i would be in a combat situation...knowing that people are shooting to kill me dead... or blow me up or cut my head off... and i guarantee all of you would be scared shitless... so give it a rest...
it's a war... these people that are at guantanimo were not rounded up at a shopping mall... they were deemed enemy combatants... sucks they have to be in prison but they are being fed clothed and treated decently...
i'm not looking for a hundred posts about their rights and blah blah blah... what should we do with these enemy combatants???? What are your perfect solutions to this issue... ??? real solutions only....
Last edited by [TUF]Catbox (2008-11-13 22:04:45)
Love is the answer
well give them a cup o tea and send them on their merry way of course, im sure they've learned their lesson. right? dont throw rocks at an abrams, got it boss.
This thread is funny ... the best part is when one argue over anothers lack of the right experience without having it oneself ...
I think you guys value millitary experience way to high, some of you idolize destruction more than you value construction and that is very scary!
I think you guys value millitary experience way to high, some of you idolize destruction more than you value construction and that is very scary!
Wait behind the line ..............................................................