BF2S Forums The bottomline on Obama "spread the wealth around"

lowing wrote:

maybe you could tqake the whole post in the context as it was meant, instead of piece mealing it so you ca nhave it say whay you WANT it to say. Nehhhhh I doubt it.

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

No Cam, we are talking about 2 different things here, I am talking about the INDIVIDUAL and his responsibilities to himself and/or his family. YOU are talking about it on a global scale. I can not think that big, nor do I give a fuck, my posts are grounded to not what I can do for the world, or the reasons why Obama wants to go Communist, but what I can do for my family. Fuck world economics, Obamas solutions makes the US a socialist state and I am against it, I do not give a shit how it affects you.

Is there any real point talking to someone who holds the preposterously ludicrous opinion that Obama 'wants to go Communist'? It's difficult to comprehend such idiocy.

What is difficult in understanding that Obama has said, and has every intention of: "Spreading the wealth", not for the functions of govt. but to accomodate a sense of entitlement and to be "nice" and "neighborly". He wants to even the out the wealth of the country. America is set up for you to be free to EARN for yourself, you are not ENTITLED to anything outside the rights of the constitution. He should not have the power to take from one person for no other reason than to give it to someone else, that HE thinks deserves it more.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Is there any real point talking to someone who holds the preposterously ludicrous opinion that Obama 'wants to go Communist'? It's difficult to comprehend such idiocy.

What is difficult in understanding that Obama has said, and has every intention of: "Spreading the wealth", not for the functions of govt. but to accomodate a sense of entitlement and to be "nice" and "neighborly". He wants to even the out the wealth of the country. America is set up for you to be free to EARN for yourself, you are not ENTITLED to anything outside the rights of the constitution. He should not have the power to take from one person for no other reason than to give it to someone else, that HE thinks deserves it more.

lol

Read what communism actually is. Then return with a sensible post. Your nation has an ever widening gulf between rich and poor due to macroscopic mismanagement of your economy. That ultimately leads to one place: revolt. The tenet of earning your keep will always hold true. Obama is doing nothing to implement communism - and if you think otherwise then you quite simply aren't very intelligent.

lowing wrote:

I am making a point Cam, Obama wants us all to work for the common good, the "neighborly", nice" thing to do. America is supposed to be a place where you are free to build for yourself. Not to take from someone for the common good. We already have social programs in place.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2008-10-27 08:06:22)

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

I am making a point Cam, Obama wants us all to work for the common good, the "neighborly", nice" thing to do. America is supposed to be a place where you are free to build for yourself. Not to take from someone for the common good. We already have social programs in place.

America is supposed to be whatever it's voters decree, which generally equates to an economically stable and growing economy. Trickle down economics can't work right now because noone is releasing their capital and noone dare will with the uncertainty in the banking sector. So Obama is having a go at trickle up economics to see if that kick-starts the economy.  The situation right now is akin to the depression. Measures of a similar ilk must be taken. Economics is a complex beast and policies are implemented very much in a 'suck it and see' type way. If it works, all well and good and everyone benefits and the nation marches forward. If it doesn't then other economic measures are taken. The status quo simply won't do. It won't matter how 'personally responsible' you are, if the entire nation tanks you can moan about how 'personally responsible' you are all you like: you still won't have any food on your table. It might be time to go to India (or even Ireland) to take up one of those millions of jobs that were outsourced by corporate America.

Last edited by lowing (2008-10-27 11:20:43)

TheAussieReaper wrote:

lowing wrote:

I am making a point Cam, Obama wants us all to work for the common good, the "neighborly", nice" thing to do.

Ah I get it. You want America to be un-neighbourly and not nice.

Lowing America is a society. It's not simply an economy with everyone thinking of nothing but dollar signs. As long as people around you have a conscious, care about what happens to the fellow American and supports greater social services for those that need it, you'll find Democrats.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

Oh I see, so out of 250 years, we have 2 "economic crisis" episodes so all of capitalism is wrong and doomed to fail. The free market can not work and will not work. The obvious answer is to of course, adopt a socialist govt., never mind YOUR economy is in the tank as well, that is not the point, the point I guess is, if we all shared and sang together, we would all be just ohhhhhhhh so happy.

Typical lowing. Where did anyone even hint at 'all of capitalism is wrong and doomed to fail'. I should have known better than to engage you and expect a rational response. It really is fucking pointless talking to you you're such a parody of yourself.

lowing wrote:

Economics from the consumer standpoint ( of which I base my opinions because I do not give a fuck how, what Obama takes from me affects you) is not that difficult. Americans has been living on and "keeping up with the Jones's" on money they never had, and the bill came due. If we as Americans did not live on credit and only spent what we could afford, prices would be down, and widgets would be cranking out by the millions, because people will by them. My posts are based on my life, I am not arrogant enough to claim to know the answers to solving the worlds problems, and I would be lying if I said I was interested in the problems of other countries or their economies. I am only interested in solving my own.

Enjoy your extended stay in Bangalore. Nobody can say they 'have the answers'. The status quo is not working. As such, different approaches are being taken. I'd love to see how you would have coped without a job for several years in depression era America, where there was in excess of 30% unemployment. Your idealistic view that people can weather all storms, even if they aren't of their own making, is idealistic to the extreme, i.e., not fit for reality. Your seeming irrational belief that policy is eternally fixed in stone forevermore and cannot be changed is also a little bewildering.

Lowing wrote:

start a thread about how an individual can solve the world "economic crisis" and bring peace on earth and good will toward men, go for it. I will stay out of it because THAT is not a reality.

Lowing wrote:

Obama is trying redistribute the wealth of the country from those that have earned it, to those that HE feels deserves it more.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

1. typical Cam, another cyber superiority complex at work.

"all of capitalism is wrong and doomed to fail" lol

lowing wrote:

2. not of their doing? WHO is it exactly that were not paying their bills? WHO is it exactly that buries themselves so far into debt that I have t opay for it? Do not tell me it was "nothing of their doing".

In case you hadn't noticed lowing - banks are cutting long and well established credit lines to hitherto relatively successful small businesses to pay for their dalliances with debt securitization and complex financial instruments and playing with peoples deposits on fickle global stock markets. There probably aren't many businesses in America or the world that do not make use of some line of credit. Ford? Chrysler? You name it. Mark my words this credit crunch will destroy thousand of businesses and thousands of jobs - and will have little or nothing to do with how successfully these businesses have plied their trade.

lowing wrote:

Tell ya what Cam, you wanna start a thread about how an individual can solve the world "economic crisis" and bring peace on earth and good will toward men, go for it. I will stay out of it because THAT is not a reality. I am talking about the govt. of the US and its constitution. Obama is trying redistribute the wealth of the country from those that have earned it, to those that HE feels deserves it more.

Thank you for pointing out the flaw in your mindset. No INDIVIDUAL can solve the macroscopic problems WE face. Thank you for putting that succinctly into words. It's not about 'deserving'. I imagine he is just seeking a path to return the economy to health - which will benefit said same people investing their capital in ventures. At the moment the market for their products is collapsing.

lowing wrote:

He is saying that govt. owns us, we work for govt. and govt. will decide what to do with our earnings and who should get it. I do not give a flying fuck if my disagreeing with that goes against your Cumbiyah sit around a camp fire and smoke a joint in peace and love idea as t owhat the world should be. I am addressing how Obama will affect MY life and MY family and turn our country into something I do not agree with. A socialist welfare state.

I can't speak for him but:

a) I kind of imagine he doesn't regard government as 'owning us'. To think he does is ludicrous and irrationally paranoid.

b) I imagine he doesn't regard the people as having to 'work for the government'. To think he does is ludicrous and irrationally paranoid.

c) I don't smoke any drugs of any kind.

d) I have never made camp or indeed a camp fire.

e) I do not know the words to 'Cumbiyah' or whatever it is. I think it's a religious song so the chances of me knowing it were slim anyway.

f) I'm not really concerned with some airy concept of 'peace and love'. My primary concern is economic prosperity and stable sustainable economic growth.

g) As a citizen of a democratic nation you must pay the taxes according to the tax policies of the candidate voted into office. You vote for the whole package. Majority dictates.

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

1. yet again, Cam, an exageration t oprove a point, or you guiltless of such things? You are about as arrogant as they come.

Note to lowing: rational arguments are generally better at 'proving points' than mindless and pointless exaggerations.

lowing wrote:

2. I believe the reaosn why the banks are defaulting is because the money promised to them by the consumer ( wh odoes not pay his fucking bills) is not coming in, so the banks can not, in turn pay their bills.

So you believe hardworking businessmen who have consistently paid their dues and debts should be allowed to be consigned to the dustbin because banks have been irresponsible in issuing loans and mortgages?  Even with the associated knock-on impact on America in general? -> Businesses go bust - people are laid off - people have less money to spend - demand slumps - manufacturing nosedives - more unemployment ensues - fit, able and hard working people can't find jobs. Most of these businessmen have probably never even heard of 'collateralised debt obligations'. You must feel awfully proud of yourself presumably totally insulated from what goes on in the outside world. I never imagined you would show such little concern for fellow compatriots trying their best yet being stabbed in the back through little or no fault of their own. The faults of others are sufficient cause for someone to be shown the dustbin I guess, eh? Good old personal responsibility...

lowing wrote:

3. If we agree then stop taking what I say about Obama and how it affects ME and my family in complete disgust, because I am not interested in solving the worlds financial crisis. It is how he intends to run America and how it affects ME is what my opinions are based. Or do you honestly think I am supposed to give a fuck as to how it affects YOU?

Quite a shallow response. Do you live in a bubble? Do you have relatives that might be affected by the downturn? Friends perhaps? Are you completely and utterly insulated from the health of the American economy? It's not just 'the worlds financial crisis'. It's primarily America's financial crisis: that's where it started and that's where it will hit hardest.

lowing wrote:

4. Bullshit, if he has the authority to take our income NOT for the prposes of running govt. but for the sole purpose of giving it to someone else HE feels deserves it more, then no we work for the govt. and the govt. now decides how much is too much, and who should get what share.
The rest of your bullshit is just that bullshit and I will not entertain it.

He has the authority to do whatever the manifesto upon which he was voted into office stated, within the confines of the consitution. Cry all you want and stick your head in the sand all you want. It's banded tax policy. The whole fucking world has it bar a handful of countries. Your sudden realisation that this was the case is baffling.

Last edited by lowing (2008-10-28 12:19:32)

CameronPoe wrote:

lowing wrote:

1. spare me your insipid arrogant ass lectures Cam, they do not work on me and you are just as guilty as using exaggeration to prove a point as anyone else in a debate.

Awwww. Whydya gotta take all the fun out of things...?

lowing wrote:

2. Businesses go bust, some one else picks up and carries on, companies have been created and folding since the beginning of business. It is call competition and a free market. If you do not want to take the risk in joining it, then do not start up a business.  Really? Lets talk about real world Cam, what DID you do to help me when I got laid off from my company? Did you give a shit? Should you give a shit? How much time did you think about how I was to feed my family? Real world Cam, we do not share problems, we each have them and are responsible for solving our own.

Not very familiar with systemic collapses of economies I see. Where an economy is frozen for reasons such as 'confidence' and 'investor panic' extraordinary measures are called for. The fact of the matter is that the American, and global, financial system is not operating properly in the least. Pretty much all economists concede that the system has suffered a collosal fuckup. It is this very freedom that the markets enjoyed and the fact that a 21st century financial system was being regulated by a 19th century regulatory system that has caused this systemic collapse. A complex monster like the global economic system demands good regulation, all economists pretty much agree on that. Whether you like it or not you are going TO HAVE TO pay higher taxes, irrespective of your level of income, because this fuckup will have to be paid for. As one economist put it: "Your children and your children's children" will be paying for this. I don't know how you can give these guys a free pass and how you think your country should take a massive hit in terms of employment and economic growth when there could be a way to avert unemployment and homelessness - of people who have been personally responsible - for some/many of your fellow compatriots. Your problem is that you are an insular greedy little man who doesn't realise that YOU COULD BENEFIT from the rest of your nation being more liquid and economically active (which it certainly will not be very soon). Basically you can't see past your own nose. You can't see that prosperity breeds prosperity - it isn't a 'I give this, you take it, I get nothing for it'. You really should get a clue of the circulation of capital, you really should.

As for 'who helped me out when the shit hit the fan'? Nobody I guess: because you live in America. I care about the bloke beside me at work, a father of three (including twins), whose wife just got laid off. I worry about my fellow Irishmen who could be faced with negative equity or the street. It is of no benefit to me to see that occur. I want to live in a nice place. I don't want broken men on the street ruing the day they bought a home or fondly recalling the time when there were jobs to be had. I don't want PhDs and tradesmen emigrating to Australia in search of employment. I don't want to live surrounded by an air of desperation. I pity the poor fuckers in Iceland, a nation on the brink of total collapse at the hands of idiotic bankers leveraging themselves up to the hilt. I'm not going to smugly sit by while my compatriots hit the dirt just because I'm safe in my job. I guess Europe is more a society and your America is a self-consumed dog-eat-dog world devoid of compassion and cognisance of the fact that prosperity breeds prosperity. I feel sorry for you really.

lowing wrote:

4. It is more than merely make more pay more Cam and you damn well know it. He is trying to take money from someone for no other reason than to give it to someone else, SHARE THE WEALTH just like Karl Marx stated. "From each, according to his ability; to each, according to his need" . Communism. Our constitution is not based on such bullshit. Now, tell me again how this comparison is so absurd?

If what he's doing is unconstitutional, which I very much doubt given my reading of your constitution, then I suggest you take up a case with the supreme court! The comparison is absurd because you know fucking nothing about communism. Answer these two short questions:

a) Where on Obama's website does it state that farms will be collectivized and when will this happen? In fact, why didn't it happen under Clinton?

b) Where on Obama's website does it state that the means of production in the USA will be taken into common ownership? In fact, why didn't it happen under Clinton?

lowing wrote:

Also I notice you did not comment on the little analogy that I posted, wanna try again?

" Here is a creative approach to redistribution of wealth as offered in a local newspaper...

Today on my way to lunch I passed a homeless guy with a sign that read 'Vote Obama, I need the money.' I laughed.

Once in the restaurant my server had on a 'Obama 08' tie, again I laughed as he had given away his political preference--just imagine the coincidence.

When the bill came I decided not to tip the server and explained to him that I was exploring the Obama redistribution of wealth concept.  He stood there in disbelief while I told him that I was going to redistribute his tip to someone who I deemed more in need--the homeless guy outside. The server angrily stormed from my sight.

I went outside, gave the homeless guy $10 and told him to thank the server inside as I've decided he could use the money more.  The homeless guy was grateful.

At the end of my rather unscientific redistribution experiment I realized the homeless guy was grateful for the money he did not earn, but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn even though the actual recipient deserved money more.

I guess redistribution of wealth is an easier thing to swallow in concept than in practical application. "

It's funny how ridiculously poor your analogy is. Because in the 'Obama redistributing wealth' scenario you perceive he is actually 'redistributing' this wealth not to homeless people or worthless bums but to white and blue collar workers paying their dues and taxes (up to ~$250,000). So in essence, try again - your analogy is null and void. Or point out where he intends to scour the streets for bums that he can eagerly hand over cash to. lol. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.