BF2S Forums Question For Americans... What Do You Think Of Unions?

Unions come about as a result of asshole management practices.  I teach a 3-hour block on this once a month to these people here.

If management doesn't check its own behavior and abuses, they're begging for a union to come in and make their lives hell.  EA found this out, Ubisoft is almost there (they invented their own "workers club" type deal to keep it at bay, won't work for much longer).

I fully believe in the right of unions to form, and they absolutely should when necessary.  Everyone should have the right to individually or collectively bargain for their labor prices and safety requisites.  However, as management, I also fully understand that unions are only worth it to form when management abuses exceed the worker's tolerance.

According to the US Labor Department, the destruction of the unions as been the main factor in the decline of real wages that has continued since the Reagan era. Health and safety standards in the workplace have also deteriorated: there are laws, but they're simply not enforced, so the number of industrial accidents has risen sharply in the past ten years. Then there is the effect of the decline of unions on democracy: the unions are one of the few means by which ordinary people can enter the political arena. Finally, there's a psychological effect. The destruction of the unions is part of a much more general effort to privatize aspirations, to eliminate solidarity, the sense that we're all in it together, that we care for one another
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/199407--.htm

The removal of unions in the USA was in line with the Capitalist doctrine which is failing in the USA and the rest of the world. Yes unions can have too much power in France of example. If regulated properly they help workers get a fair deal.

without unions companies take advantage of the workers. damn if you do damn if you don't.

usmarine wrote:

unions destroy companies and take money away from non union workers.

That would be unions in the corrupt sense, the kind that we have seen in modern America with the mafia and so on. It is not however a manifestation of unions as they are actually intended to operate, it is a perversion of the concept of the union.

blademaster wrote:

usmarine wrote:

unions destroy companies and take money away from non union workers.

yeah and u can show up drunk to work if  work for the union and u wont get fired, thats what I heard

Again. a perversion of the concept of the union.

JahManRed wrote:

The removal of unions in the USA was in line with the Capitalist doctrine which is failing in the USA and the rest of the world. Yes unions can have too much power in France of example. If regulated properly they help workers get a fair deal.

Very true, unions ideally should be a door that swings both ways. By that I mean the interests of the company as a whole should be taken into account at all times (after all if the company goes down the toilet then everyone is fucked!), only not at the expense of the workers' health and basic rights as employees.

GorillaTicTacs wrote:

Unions come about as a result of asshole management practices.  I teach a 3-hour block on this once a month to these people here.

If management doesn't check its own behavior and abuses, they're begging for a union to come in and make their lives hell.  EA found this out, Ubisoft is almost there (they invented their own "workers club" type deal to keep it at bay, won't work for much longer).

I fully believe in the right of unions to form, and they absolutely should when necessary.  Everyone should have the right to individually or collectively bargain for their labor prices and safety requisites.  However, as management, I also fully understand that unions are only worth it to form when management abuses exceed the worker's tolerance.

QFT. Bad management provides the desire and grounds upon which to form unions in the first place. How often do you hear about workers complaining about how fairly or nicely they are being treated?

Question: does anyone else think the idea of attempting to ban unionisation or sacking anyone discovered to be part of a union as inherently evil?

Last edited by Braddock (2008-10-17 06:52:04)

Hmm, I was just thinking about this very topic recently due to the large role unions play in the plot of the book I'm reading (Upton Sinclairs Oil! for those who care).

I believe unions were a necessary instrument for workers to obtain some of the job characteristics that were considered luxuries then, but taken for granted today, for example, the 8-hour workday, and wages more than a pittance. However, it's even in the book that unions become corrupt by management seeking to control the workers, or out of just plain greed. I don't believe they embody the best interest of those they represent anymore, and the idea of those who control a union conjures up images of fat guys taking advantage of the workers, just as a management official might were there not a union.

Ideally, they are an unnecessary entity, but because the workers weren't always given the most agreeable deal by greedy manager-folk, they became necessary. Nevertheless, I'm not too keen on the whole idea.

usmarine wrote:

no brad.  in aviation for example, unions kill companies and take money away from non union workers.

Join the the union then.

RAIMIUS wrote:

In theory, it is not a bad idea...then again, neither is communism...in theory...

Well I find the idea of not being allowed to join a union so as the bosses can squeeze every last penny out of his workforce as inherently evil. I prefer the lesser evil of unions.

usmarine wrote:

no brad.  in aviation for example, unions kill companies and take money away from non union workers.

Again that is a corruption of the concept of the union. The union should serve as a layer of protection for the workforce, not as some sort of 'old boys club', the same is seen with equity cards for actors... "How do you get an equity card? Oh well you have to have been on TV or in a film? How do you get on TV or in a film? OH, well you need an equity card."

Sadly this kind of corruption does exist but the other side of the coin is sweatshops, non-existent health and safety regulations and no job security.

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

usmarine wrote:

no brad.  in aviation for example, unions kill companies and take money away from non union workers.

Join the the union then.

are you aware of how business works?

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

mister HOF.

what?  dur.

pilots and mechanics are union, not operations people.

usmarine wrote:

unions destroy companies and take money away from non union workers.

hes 100% right, unions protect the lazy while the company has to cater to their needs

I've spent a lot of time on both sides. The union can be good with things like safety and ..oh I don't know, making sure you get your paycheck. There are certainly some who exploit their protection as well. There are both good and bad points. I was a teamster for five years. I was a supervisor of teamsters for six years. .. and then a teamster again for four years (I wanted to drive for UPS).

still dont like em