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2008-10-15 05:25:40
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX
But the problem you run into when dealing with people who have a lot of academic experience and little to no real-world experience, is that they feel their understanding is better because it's unsullied by non-academic types. That kind of attitude fails everywhere except inside the hallowed halls of academia.
Wide academic knowledge is often more useful than one person's narrow experience.
Academic knowledge is in any case just other people's experience written down and published.
Saying your 'experience' is more valuable than someone elses 'experience' is just plain arrogance.

The problem I have is running up against luddites who believe their 'experience' is the only thing which matters and academic knowledge is of no value at all.
Whats worse is when people think they have 'experience' of one subject that makes them experts on any other subject which comes into their heads.
Fuck Israel
2008-10-15 07:22:02
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6581|Éire

lowing wrote:

1. Europe was overtaken by Germany, every nation surrendered to them less England and the rest coloaborated with them, what happened 1,000 years ago does not really matter, your empire is reduced to an Island in the Atlantic.
Firstly, Britain is part of Europe and Russia did not surrender either. Secondly, "An Island in the Atlantic"? I think you'll find the European Union still exists lowing... look at a map. Unless your definition of 'empire' requires you to be engaged in expensive wars that you're struggling to win?

lowing wrote:

2. No sweat I like cheese as well.
Cheese is great... how could anyone not like cheese in all fairness?

lowing wrote:

3. Really? You only have 1 or 2 Eueopeans suckig on the govt. tit? Now c'mon Braddock am I really to believe that?
I sure do remember a lot of bums on the street hassling me for change (not the kind Barack Obama talks about) when I was last in the States... are you trying to say you guys have it right and we have it wrong? I'll take socialism thank you very much, at least that way I get a little something for my tax Euros.

lowing wrote:

4. Here we go again they are insignificant, yet seem ot shake up the entire world with every bombing.
They might shake up your entire world whenever they bomb something... I personally have never, in any way, been affected by an Islamic terror act. I know a guy who was on his way to visit the twin towers when the first plane hit but that's about as close as it gets.
2008-10-15 11:12:26
IG-Calibre
comhalta
+226|7033|Tír Eoghan, Tuaisceart Éireann
see what you have to remember Braddock is in "Lowing world" each of those pilots in 9/11 could be interchangeable with any of the worlds 1.2 billion Muslims on the planet, and if they refused to fly the jet? well then, they clearly wouldn't be Muslim would they ?because.....???  all Muslims hate the West and want to destroy it!! All of them... every last single one.. in lowing world..
2008-10-15 14:58:41
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6702|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

Wide academic knowledge is often more useful than one person's narrow experience.
Academic knowledge is in any case just other people's experience written down and published.
Saying your 'experience' is more valuable than someone elses 'experience' is just plain arrogance.
No, arrogance is coming into a situation with a book-deep understanding and trying to tell someone who has an understanding based on years of hands-on experience that you know it better than they do, based solely on your education.

That is the downfall of many a new lieutenant in the military--thinking they know more than the crusty NCO because they have a college degree and he doesn't.

If you've read about being poor but have never actually been poor, you have no clue what it's like.
If you've read about being in the military but have never actually served, you have no clue what it's like.
If you've designed aircraft but never flown one, you have no clue what it's like to employ one effectively.
If you've got a master's degree in computer science, you may know fuckall about building a network--but Joey who's been doing it for years certainly does.

It's not a truism, but--more often than not--experience actually doing something outweighs studying about that something in school.

You can keep twisting it and trying to oversimplify it, but I've explained it about as simplistically as I can.

Dilbert_X wrote:

The problem I have is running up against luddites who believe their 'experience' is the only thing which matters and academic knowledge is of no value at all.
I don't think I or anyone else has said that.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Whats worse is when people think they have 'experience' of one subject that makes them experts on any other subject which comes into their heads.
Sounds like you're talking about most of the posters to this forum.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-10-15 19:35:17
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

1. Europe was overtaken by Germany, every nation surrendered to them less England and the rest coloaborated with them, what happened 1,000 years ago does not really matter, your empire is reduced to an Island in the Atlantic.
Firstly, Britain is part of Europe and Russia did not surrender either. Secondly, "An Island in the Atlantic"? I think you'll find the European Union still exists lowing... look at a map. Unless your definition of 'empire' requires you to be engaged in expensive wars that you're struggling to win?

lowing wrote:

2. No sweat I like cheese as well.
Cheese is great... how could anyone not like cheese in all fairness?

lowing wrote:

3. Really? You only have 1 or 2 Eueopeans suckig on the govt. tit? Now c'mon Braddock am I really to believe that?
I sure do remember a lot of bums on the street hassling me for change (not the kind Barack Obama talks about) when I was last in the States... are you trying to say you guys have it right and we have it wrong? I'll take socialism thank you very much, at least that way I get a little something for my tax Euros.

lowing wrote:

4. Here we go again they are insignificant, yet seem ot shake up the entire world with every bombing.
They might shake up your entire world whenever they bomb something... I personally have never, in any way, been affected by an Islamic terror act. I know a guy who was on his way to visit the twin towers when the first plane hit but that's about as close as it gets.
1. Already gave credit to England amd Russia was an ally to Germany before Hitler turned on it.

3.Yes,  iam saying we have it right. It is called freedom Braddock. Freedom from govt. intervention. I know that is alien to you, sucking on govt. tit your whole life I could see where it would be hard to stop.

4. The thing is Braddock, no, you have not been hurt by terrorism, but there are plenty of people that have, am I to assume that, all of sudden, it is all about YOU?
2008-10-15 19:36:59
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

IG-Calibre wrote:

see what you have to remember Braddock is in "Lowing world" each of those pilots in 9/11 could be interchangeable with any of the worlds 1.2 billion Muslims on the planet, and if they refused to fly the jet? well then, they clearly wouldn't be Muslim would they ?because.....???  all Muslims hate the West and want to destroy it!! All of them... every last single one.. in lowing world..
I don't have a problem with Muslims. I take people as individuals. I hate Islam. Get it right.
2008-10-16 01:26:25
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX
No, arrogance is coming into a situation with a book-deep understanding and trying to tell someone who has an understanding based on years of hands-on experience that you know it better than they do, based solely on your education.
Both approaches would be arrogance.
That is the downfall of many a new lieutenant in the military--thinking they know more than the crusty NCO because they have a college degree and he doesn't.
You need to balance both approaches.
How often does an NCO make it to a senior rank? A Lieutenant? Experience is one thing, having wider knowledge and an open mind is another.
If you've read about being poor but have never actually been poor, you have no clue what it's like.
If you've read about being in the military but have never actually served, you have no clue what it's like.
If you've designed aircraft but never flown one, you have no clue what it's like to employ one effectively.
If you've got a master's degree in computer science, you may know fuckall about building a network--but Joey who's been doing it for years certainly does.
Not necessarily.
I don't need to contract tuberculosis to understand the symptoms are pretty harsh.
Joey might be able to build a network he's previously been trained to do, but would struggle a bit with a whole new architecture, or designing a new architecture.
I've explained it about as simplistically as I can.
Doesn't make you right.
I don't think I or anyone else has said that.
Oh come one, how many times have we heard 'I have experience, therefore I'm right and you're wrong'?
Or 'I bumped around Iraq in the back of a Humvee, therefore I am an expert on ME geopolitics'?
Sounds like you're talking about most of the posters to this forum.
Pretty much, at least the ex-military members.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2008-10-16 01:28:05)

Fuck Israel
2008-10-16 01:44:18
Catbox
forgiveness
+505|7007

Dilbert_X wrote:

No, arrogance is coming into a situation with a book-deep understanding and trying to tell someone who has an understanding based on years of hands-on experience that you know it better than they do, based solely on your education.
Both approaches would be arrogance.
That is the downfall of many a new lieutenant in the military--thinking they know more than the crusty NCO because they have a college degree and he doesn't.
You need to balance both approaches.
How often does an NCO make it to a senior rank? A Lieutenant? Experience is one thing, having wider knowledge and an open mind is another.
If you've read about being poor but have never actually been poor, you have no clue what it's like.
If you've read about being in the military but have never actually served, you have no clue what it's like.
If you've designed aircraft but never flown one, you have no clue what it's like to employ one effectively.
If you've got a master's degree in computer science, you may know fuckall about building a network--but Joey who's been doing it for years certainly does.
Not necessarily.
I don't need to contract tuberculosis to understand the symptoms are pretty harsh.
Joey might be able to build a network he's previously been trained to do, but would struggle a bit with a whole new architecture, or designing a new architecture.
I've explained it about as simplistically as I can.
Doesn't make you right.
I don't think I or anyone else has said that.
Oh come one, how many times have we heard 'I have experience, therefore I'm right and you're wrong'?
Or 'I bumped around Iraq in the back of a Humvee, therefore I am an expert on ME geopolitics'?
Sounds like you're talking about most of the posters to this forum.
Pretty much, at least the ex-military members.
Your spin is amazing... you should run for office
Love is the answer
2008-10-16 01:50:12
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX
Much too flaky a personal life unfortunately.
Maybe a back-room job would suit me better.
Fuck Israel
2008-10-16 02:38:43
PureFodder
Member
+225|6576
Personal experience can give you a good idea about how policies effect FEOS, but it doesn't tell you a lot about how it effects a wall street trader, an Iowa corn farmer, a Californian hockey mom or a retired couple in Seattle etc. A policy that is great for you may be catastrophic for someone else.

You have no personal experience of the vast majority of the populace and therefore have little ability to comment on general trends across geographical and socio-economic boundaries.

Studying vast numbers of different personal experiences and data trends gives a better picture of the country as a whole, and lets not forget that academics actually exist and therefore have their own personal experience too.

No single person is representative of 300 million people. If I wanted to know how US policies effect FEOS or someone in a similar situation I'd ask you. If I wanted to know how they effect a wide range of different Americans I'd ask someone who's studied the effects.
2008-10-16 02:51:31
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6702|'Murka

Dilbert_X wrote:

That is the downfall of many a new lieutenant in the military--thinking they know more than the crusty NCO because they have a college degree and he doesn't.
You need to balance both approaches.
Never said otherwise, did I?

Dilbert_X wrote:

How often does an NCO make it to a senior rank? A Lieutenant? Experience is one thing, having wider knowledge and an open mind is another.
What do you mean by senior rank? They have roughly the same chance of making Senior NCO as an officer has of making Field Grade.

You make the assumption that someone lacking an in-depth academic background also lacks an open mind. In practice, I've seen the opposite more often.

Dilbert_X wrote:

If you've read about being poor but have never actually been poor, you have no clue what it's like.
If you've read about being in the military but have never actually served, you have no clue what it's like.
If you've designed aircraft but never flown one, you have no clue what it's like to employ one effectively.
If you've got a master's degree in computer science, you may know fuckall about building a network--but Joey who's been doing it for years certainly does.
Not necessarily.
I don't need to contract tuberculosis to understand the symptoms are pretty harsh.
Joey might be able to build a network he's previously been trained to do, but would struggle a bit with a whole new architecture, or designing a new architecture.
Knowing the symptoms are harsh and knowing how to deal with those symptoms and the impact of dealing with those symptoms on those around you are two different things.

Why on earth would you think that Joey can't handle a whole new architecture or design a new architecture? That's just a tad arrogant.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I've explained it about as simplistically as I can.
Doesn't make you right.
The explanation doesn't make me right. The content of my argument does. And you still haven't disproven it.

Dilbert_X wrote:

I don't think I or anyone else has said that.
Oh come one, how many times have we heard 'I have experience, therefore I'm right and you're wrong'?
Or 'I bumped around Iraq in the back of a Humvee, therefore I am an expert on ME geopolitics'?
It depends on the topic being discussed. And I'm pretty sure nobody has claimed to be an expert on ME geopolitics based on their time in a HUMVEE in Iraq. They may claim to be an expert on what happened tactically, day to day, over someone who hadn't done that...and they would be right.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Sounds like you're talking about most of the posters to this forum.
Pretty much, at least the ex-military elitist academic members.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-10-16 02:55:37
FEOS
Bellicose Yankee Air Pirate
+1,182|6702|'Murka

PureFodder wrote:

Personal experience can give you a good idea about how policies effect FEOS, but it doesn't tell you a lot about how it effects a wall street trader, an Iowa corn farmer, a Californian hockey mom or a retired couple in Seattle etc. A policy that is great for you may be catastrophic for someone else.

You have no personal experience of the vast majority of the populace and therefore have little ability to comment on general trends across geographical and socio-economic boundaries.

Studying vast numbers of different personal experiences and data trends gives a better picture of the country as a whole, and lets not forget that academics actually exist and therefore have their own personal experience too.

No single person is representative of 300 million people. If I wanted to know how US policies effect FEOS or someone in a similar situation I'd ask you. If I wanted to know how they effect a wide range of different Americans I'd ask someone who's studied the effects.
Please point out where I have stated or implied that a single person's experience, extrapolated to apply to people outside of their situation, is preferable to valid statistical studies.

Please point out where I have stated or implied any of what you are "countering" above.

I was (and have been) talking about first-hand, real-world experience in a specific area as related to academic understanding of the same specific area.
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”
― Albert Einstein
Doing the popular thing is not always right. Doing the right thing is not always popular
2008-10-16 04:07:55
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX
The content of my argument does. And you still haven't disproven it.
No, you have to disprove me, which you haven't done.
Fuck Israel
2008-10-16 04:24:49
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6791|so randum

lowing wrote:

1. Europe was overtaken by Germany, every nation surrendered to them less England and the rest coloaborated with them, what happened 1,000 years ago does not really matter, your empire is reduced to an Island in the Atlantic.
England, Wales, Scotland and NI remained. Plus, The Polish hardly "coloaborated" with the German's, same could be said of some parts of France. And Malta. l2history


Also, look around the globe lowing, Britains influences have hardly been cut back to just GB - You wouldn't be at that keyboard headbutting it to make arguments if it where not for our "empire reduced to an Island in the Atlantic"
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
2008-10-16 04:53:18
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX
Oh yeah, and America still uses the crappy Imperial system LOL
Fuck Israel
2008-10-16 05:08:11
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6581|Éire

lowing wrote:

1. Already gave credit to England amd Russia was an ally to Germany before Hitler turned on it.
It's a bit of a pointless argument really... you're talking about Europeans always surrendering and using an example where one European alliance fought another European alliance. It's a bit like me saying all Americans are surrender monkeys because the Confederates surrendered to the Unionists.

lowing wrote:

3.Yes,  iam saying we have it right. It is called freedom Braddock. Freedom from govt. intervention. I know that is alien to you, sucking on govt. tit your whole life I could see where it would be hard to stop.
Freedom to starve and die on the street. How are we not free in Europe exactly? Does the Big Brother Government come into our rooms at night and strap us to our beds with gags in our mouths? We pay taxes and get social services for our tax Euros, deal with it.

lowing wrote:

4. The thing is Braddock, no, you have not been hurt by terrorism, but there are plenty of people that have, am I to assume that, all of sudden, it is all about YOU?
Suddenly the libertarian is worried about other people!? The closest connection I have to terrorism is that I know someone who knows someone who knows someone who was killed in the London bombings a couple of years back... I'm almost closer to Kevin Bacon than I am to terrorism! Terrorism is no more a threat to my life or the lives of my loved ones than Communism was during the cold war. It is a threat to certain people and should be tackled seriously but sadly there are people out there who would rather use it as a cover-all banner under which to wage war and create a climate of fear and a siege mentality.
2008-10-16 05:41:20
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,817|6397|eXtreme to the maX
Freedom from govt. intervention.
Barely, unless you pay no taxes.
Did you read the Patriot act?
Fuck Israel
2008-10-16 05:47:40
Mekstizzle
WALKER
+3,611|6912|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

How often does an NCO make it to a senior rank? A Lieutenant? Experience is one thing, having wider knowledge and an open mind is another.
I don't know about the USA, but over here, it's not impossible to go from non-commissioned to commissioned. Infact, it's probably easier to go down a route where you're first non-commissioned, then you go for a commission. Because they'll look at you in a much better light in the selection process than with someone who simply has A levels and/or is just fresh out of Uni and no other real experience (like me ) etc..

edit:


The Australian Defence Force, the British Armed Forces, the Pakistan Army and Navy (though not airforce), the Swiss Army, the Israel Defense Forces and the New Zealand Defence Force are different in not requiring a university degree for commissioning. They emphasise military, technical and leadership training and skills over academic qualifications, although a majority of officers in these militaries are now graduates. In the Pakistani Army all officers are by definition graduates, since officer training is recognized as the equivalent of a bachelor's degree.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commission … d_officers

Last edited by Mek-Stizzle (2008-10-16 05:48:48)

2008-10-16 05:57:51
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6444|what

lowing wrote:

The Sheriff wrote:

Wales never surrendered nor collaborated with Germany in the World Wars.
That must be why I said every nation except England I am sorry if  I did not get that specific and say the British Isles
Russia had a revolution during the first world war, and they sure as fucking hell did not surrender during WW2.

Lowing probably thinks Britain is just an island waiting to be over taken by Muslims.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
2008-10-16 06:38:36
PureFodder
Member
+225|6576

FEOS wrote:

PureFodder wrote:

Personal experience can give you a good idea about how policies effect FEOS, but it doesn't tell you a lot about how it effects a wall street trader, an Iowa corn farmer, a Californian hockey mom or a retired couple in Seattle etc. A policy that is great for you may be catastrophic for someone else.

You have no personal experience of the vast majority of the populace and therefore have little ability to comment on general trends across geographical and socio-economic boundaries.

Studying vast numbers of different personal experiences and data trends gives a better picture of the country as a whole, and lets not forget that academics actually exist and therefore have their own personal experience too.

No single person is representative of 300 million people. If I wanted to know how US policies effect FEOS or someone in a similar situation I'd ask you. If I wanted to know how they effect a wide range of different Americans I'd ask someone who's studied the effects.
Please point out where I have stated or implied that a single person's experience, extrapolated to apply to people outside of their situation, is preferable to valid statistical studies.

Please point out where I have stated or implied any of what you are "countering" above.

I was (and have been) talking about first-hand, real-world experience in a specific area as related to academic understanding of the same specific area.
So does living in the US give you some special first hand experience of US policy creation and the effects of the policies upon the populace as a whole.

This whole thing came from the notion that if you don't live in the US you couldn't be as informed about US politics as someone who lives there.
2008-10-16 07:42:58
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

1. Already gave credit to England amd Russia was an ally to Germany before Hitler turned on it.
It's a bit of a pointless argument really... you're talking about Europeans always surrendering and using an example where one European alliance fought another European alliance. It's a bit like me saying all Americans are surrender monkeys because the Confederates surrendered to the Unionists.

lowing wrote:

3.Yes,  iam saying we have it right. It is called freedom Braddock. Freedom from govt. intervention. I know that is alien to you, sucking on govt. tit your whole life I could see where it would be hard to stop.
Freedom to starve and die on the street. How are we not free in Europe exactly? Does the Big Brother Government come into our rooms at night and strap us to our beds with gags in our mouths? We pay taxes and get social services for our tax Euros, deal with it.

lowing wrote:

4. The thing is Braddock, no, you have not been hurt by terrorism, but there are plenty of people that have, am I to assume that, all of sudden, it is all about YOU?
Suddenly the libertarian is worried about other people!? The closest connection I have to terrorism is that I know someone who knows someone who knows someone who was killed in the London bombings a couple of years back... I'm almost closer to Kevin Bacon than I am to terrorism! Terrorism is no more a threat to my life or the lives of my loved ones than Communism was during the cold war. It is a threat to certain people and should be tackled seriously but sadly there are people out there who would rather use it as a cover-all banner under which to wage war and create a climate of fear and a siege mentality.
1. Maybe you outta look at a map of Europe in 1943.

3. Nope freedom ot succeed or fail as you deem. In your rooms is probalby the only place big brother does not have a fucking video camera on you. Then I wouldn't take that bet. I do not have to deal with it, it is your tit you suck it all you want. I choose to decide for myself. I do not need or wnat govt. involved in my life.

4.Nope. I worry about national security so I ca ncontinue to live in freedom. The fact that you have your head buried so far deep in the sand and can not see what is going on around you does not mean there isn't a threat. Don't worry though, while you reap the rewards as a spectator, claiming all is well, others will fight to make it stays that way for you.
2008-10-16 07:47:34
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6444|what

Lowing, when was Russia and ally with Germany?
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
2008-10-16 07:59:38
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

TheAussieReaper wrote:

Lowing, when was Russia and ally with Germany?
http://www.johndclare.net/RoadtoWWII8.htm
2008-10-16 07:59:38
Braddock
Agitator
+916|6581|Éire

lowing wrote:

1. Maybe you outta look at a map of Europe in 1943.
Germany (a European Country) took over half of Europe then Britain and Russia (both European countries) fought back and reclaimed it... like I said before, it's as stupid an argument as me claiming America is full of surrender monkeys because one half of ye surrendered to the other half.

lowing wrote:

3. Nope freedom ot succeed or fail as you deem. In your rooms is probalby the only place big brother does not have a fucking video camera on you. Then I wouldn't take that bet. I do not have to deal with it, it is your tit you suck it all you want. I choose to decide for myself. I do not need or wnat govt. involved in my life.
Lol. Patriot act lowing? Your Government can do pretty much what it pleases with your private correspondences these days and don't try and pretend you live in a carefree, minimally-policed society because I've been to post 9/11 New York.

lowing wrote:

4.Nope. I worry about national security so I ca ncontinue to live in freedom. The fact that you have your head buried so far deep in the sand and can not see what is going on around you does not mean there isn't a threat. Don't worry though, while you reap the rewards as a spectator, claiming all is well, others will fight to make it stays that way for you.
Sounds familiar... can you smell that? Weren't we fed that same line of bullshit regarding Communism a few years back? Others will fight to protect me from terror, will they? How, by invading countries that never had a strong AQ base to begin just so as they can build them up for them to be knocked down again? I'm all for vigilant policing and security measures lowing, I'm just not in favour of bullshit wars with ulterior motives.
2008-10-16 08:04:20
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6942|USA

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

1. Maybe you outta look at a map of Europe in 1943.
Germany (a European Country) took over half of Europe then Britain and Russia (both European countries) fought back and reclaimed it... like I said before, it's as stupid an argument as me claiming America is full of surrender monkeys because one half of ye surrendered to the other half.

lowing wrote:

3. Nope freedom ot succeed or fail as you deem. In your rooms is probalby the only place big brother does not have a fucking video camera on you. Then I wouldn't take that bet. I do not have to deal with it, it is your tit you suck it all you want. I choose to decide for myself. I do not need or wnat govt. involved in my life.
Lol. Patriot act lowing? Your Government can do pretty much what it pleases with your private correspondences these days and don't try and pretend you live in a carefree, minimally-policed society because I've been to post 9/11 New York.

lowing wrote:

4.Nope. I worry about national security so I ca ncontinue to live in freedom. The fact that you have your head buried so far deep in the sand and can not see what is going on around you does not mean there isn't a threat. Don't worry though, while you reap the rewards as a spectator, claiming all is well, others will fight to make it stays that way for you.
Sounds familiar... can you smell that? Weren't we fed that same line of bullshit regarding Communism a few years back? Others will fight to protect me from terror, will they? How, by invading countries that never had a strong AQ base to begin just so as they can build them up for them to be knocked down again? I'm all for vigilant policing and security measures lowing, I'm just not in favour of bullshit wars with ulterior motives.
1. Europe is a big place Braddock, claiming 1 or 2 countries that DIDN"T surrender isn't much of an argument against European surrender and/or collaboration with Germany.

3, Yup our govt. spyies on terrorists, I ca nlive iwth that. Heavens for fucking bid if a terorrist was denied constitutional rights that he is not entitled t oin the first place.

4. Like I said , you just stay in denial there are plenty of people out there that will continue ot make sure you are comfortable in it.

 

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