why? God knows everything, maybe we cannot see "everything" like God does and that is ultimately why we fail? it's a question of perspective or lack thereof?Vilham wrote:
If you believe in a Christian god, ie all knowing there is no such thing as free will. All knowing god and free will are not compatible. The two concepts are counter to each other.Stingray24 wrote:
Belief is optional and up to us to decide with the free will we are given by God. Death and suffering entered the world because of the choice allowed to Adam and Eve. Why did God allow free will? Because He wants a relationship with us. In order for there to be no suffering or pain on earth, it would be necessary eliminate choice.
So what to do with the injustice we see when our fellow humans bring on one another?
1. Blame God for creating us and giving us free will
2. Point the finger at those who chose to bring suffering on a fellow human being
... those are the choices.
We demand God step in and stop the suffering and pain we see here on earth before we will acknowledge both His existence and His justice. Do we also demand God step in when we revel in our independence when life is pleasurable? I think not. We squirm like toddlers in a car seat regarding God's existence until life starts to hurt and then we howl and pout for rescue. Why do we behave in such a contradictory manner? We're human and cannot possibly comprehend eternity, yet we demand God apply His justice now according to our liking. A little arrogant for created beings aren't we?
Precisely
That's exactly right. God demand's many many things from you to even consider you to get into heaven, according to believers. That's not free will. Not to mention what I just said isn't what religion was meant to be.Vilham wrote:
If you believe in a Christian god, ie all knowing there is no such thing as free will. All knowing god and free will are not compatible. The two concepts are counter to each other.
To get into Heaven, one thing is required: accepting Christ's free gift of salvation. Only you can decide whether you will or not.
Someone asked me did I think the Dalai Lama would get into heaven even though he isn't Christian? I just laughed and said probably but sure he just keeps coming back again
Last edited by IG-Calibre (2008-08-02 17:30:52)
You. Don't. Get. ItStingray24 wrote:
To get into Heaven, one thing is required: accepting Christ's free gift of salvation. Only you can decide whether you will or not.
xBlackPantherx wrote:
Exactly, if you'd actually read the fucking Bible god isn't one that is an Almighty Creator or someone that controls all. He is a role model to show you how to lead a good life; not in the sense of luxury, but as a fucking human being in the presence and communities of others just like you so that you make your life worth living because there is sure as hell nothing after life. Heaven isn't some mystical place you go after you die. Heaven is the sense you feel reflecting upon your life and the good you've done and people's lives you've changed right before your screen flatlines. That is what 'enlightenment' or 'the pleasure of 72 virgins is'. Stop selling yourself bullshit. Actually know what you are believing in. Don't buy the corrupted, 2000+ years of manipulation and changes that are in modern day religion. You want a religion. Join fking Buddhism. That is the only religion that is legit because it's barely a religion. It's a way of life. Not some bullshit you kneel on your knees and think to to clear your guilt about what a dick you are to the human community. If you don't want that guilt. Follow a religion like it's meant to be.
/rant
Do you consider hell to be literally true? I have often wondered what exactly was meant by hell. It's portraid as being the place where the wicked are sent, but, I often wonder why a God would be so petty. Then if you look at the language of it.Stingray24 wrote:
To get into Heaven, one thing is required: accepting Christ's free gift of salvation. Only you can decide whether you will or not.
''Follow me and gain salvation/everlasting life''
So therefor, if you dont follow him, you, dont get ever lasting life right? But isnt, eternal torture a sort of everlasting life onto it'self? Sure, it would suck, but it's still an afterlife, just a bad one. I wondered whether Jesus, assuming the guy existed and had even a shread of truth to what he apparantly said, is it beyond belief that he exaggerated hell, to do us all a favour?
I mean if I said to you, if you dont believe in me you will cease to exist. Well, that isnt going to bother some. I mean atheists dont seem to have a problem with it, you cant threaten many people with the idea of ceasing to exist. Eternal punishment though is something to worry about (if it is indeed true).
Liken it to buying a new TV. A friend comes in who knows about them and says, yeh get the one on the left (the more expensive one). To try and explain why, he exaggerates the negatives of choice A, to emphasise the positives of choice B. Considering Christians always fall back on the, well this is metaphorical card when it doesnt suit, I dont see why what I said above is out of the question, assuming there is a theist God.
Martyn
I understand salvation quite clearly. It's right there in the Bible. You said God requires many things for salvation and He does not.xBlackPantherx wrote:
You. Don't. Get. ItStingray24 wrote:
To get into Heaven, one thing is required: accepting Christ's free gift of salvation. Only you can decide whether you will or not.
Last edited by Stingray24 (2008-08-02 17:45:19)
And the other way is getting someone else to believe thatStingray24 wrote:
To get into Heaven, one thing is required: accepting Christ's free gift of salvation. Only you can decide whether you will or not.
I'm not sure what you mean by that.
The other way of getting into heaven, by successfully getting someone else to convert or "believe"
Whats the quantifiable difference between accepting and not accepting Jesus as your savior?
What if everyone only says that so they get in to heaven?
What if everyone only says that so they get in to heaven?
Perhaps for other religions, but not Christianity. The decision to believe in Christ and accept His salvation is something each person must decide for themselves. There is no way to earn it by converting others or by doing good works. Those things are to be a result of gratitude to God for salvation.Mek-Stizzle wrote:
The other way of getting into heaven, by successfully getting someone else to convert or "believe"
Ephesians 2:8-9
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast."
Last edited by Stingray24 (2008-08-02 18:02:01)
Whether or not a person truly believes in Christ and accepts His salvation can only be known by God. We humans cannot know a person's true motives.Spearhead wrote:
Whats the quantifiable difference between accepting and not accepting Jesus as your savior?
What if everyone only says that so they get in to heaven?
1 Samuel 16:7
"... God sees not as man sees, for man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."
Last edited by Stingray24 (2008-08-02 18:00:08)
I'm kinda amazed at the narrow view of the "I don't believe" crowd that is shown here at times. People keep equating a belief in God to the stereotypes of a religious group, regardless of what that group is. Christians are all bible thumpin' holy than thou leper messiahs, Muslims are all terrorists, and only people who believe there is no God are even remotely sane... but still probably not.
Believing in God doesn't mean you believe everything a holy book says and the extremes of a religion's dogma.
Believing in God doesn't mean you believe everything a holy book says and the extremes of a religion's dogma.
If your god did create us, then is he not responsible for how we choose? Even if we were to dismiss that line of reasoning, we must consider that he is aware of every choice we will make, and therefore he knows our fate. There is no need to test us, and to create beings that he is fully aware of their eventual fate in hell, then he is also malevolent.
The ideas of omnipotence and omniscience and easily challenged in correlation with free will, unless this god is evil. Then he may be all powerful and all knowing.
The ideas of omnipotence and omniscience and easily challenged in correlation with free will, unless this god is evil. Then he may be all powerful and all knowing.
I do not claim to understand exactly how our choices and God's infinite knowledge coexist. To have such knowledge I would have to be God. I do know the following from the Bible:
He is aware of every choice we make and what our fate will be as sinful humans incapable of perfection. We must be separate from God because of our sin, but God wanted a relationship with those whom He created. We cannot earn Heaven, because no matter how many good works we do, we are still sinful. Knowing this, He provided salvation by the death of His perfect son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins that we could never pay.
John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
Romans 3:23-26
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood."
Romans 5:8
"God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
He is aware of every choice we make and what our fate will be as sinful humans incapable of perfection. We must be separate from God because of our sin, but God wanted a relationship with those whom He created. We cannot earn Heaven, because no matter how many good works we do, we are still sinful. Knowing this, He provided salvation by the death of His perfect son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins that we could never pay.
John 3:16-17
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him."
Romans 3:23-26
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood."
Romans 5:8
"God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us."
Last edited by Stingray24 (2008-08-02 19:01:31)
The way you view and learned the Bible is not what any religion is meant to be. Heaven and hell are not tangible places you go after dying. You COULD get your definition of heaven and hell from the bible, but that's your point of view. I don't doubt Jesus existed, but he was a man and, like I said before, God isn't an almighty creator, he is a human being role model to help you see how to lead your life. Jesus is not the son of God. That was something to show people that leading a good life is possible.Stingray24 wrote:
I understand salvation quite clearly. It's right there in the Bible. You said God requires many things for salvation and He does not.xBlackPantherx wrote:
You. Don't. Get. ItStingray24 wrote:
To get into Heaven, one thing is required: accepting Christ's free gift of salvation. Only you can decide whether you will or not.
We are sinful only because of his choice under that doctrine.Stingray24 wrote:
I do not claim to understand exactly how our choices and God's infinite knowledge coexist. To have such knowledge I would have to be God. I do know the following from the Bible:
He is aware of every choice we make and what our fate will be as sinful humans incapable of perfection. We must be separate from God because of our sin, but God wanted a relationship with those whom He created. We cannot earn Heaven, because no matter how many good works we do, we are still sinful. Knowing this, He provided salvation by the death of His perfect son Jesus Christ to pay the penalty for our sins that we could never pay.
If god already knows what you are going to do before your even created you don't have free will. You are going to do things in an exact order, it may feel like you can choose but god already knows which option you will pick.IG-Calibre wrote:
why? God knows everything, maybe we cannot see "everything" like God does and that is ultimately why we fail? it's a question of perspective or lack thereof?Vilham wrote:
If you believe in a Christian god, ie all knowing there is no such thing as free will. All knowing god and free will are not compatible. The two concepts are counter to each other.Stingray24 wrote:
Belief is optional and up to us to decide with the free will we are given by God. Death and suffering entered the world because of the choice allowed to Adam and Eve. Why did God allow free will? Because He wants a relationship with us. In order for there to be no suffering or pain on earth, it would be necessary eliminate choice.
So what to do with the injustice we see when our fellow humans bring on one another?
1. Blame God for creating us and giving us free will
2. Point the finger at those who chose to bring suffering on a fellow human being
... those are the choices.
We demand God step in and stop the suffering and pain we see here on earth before we will acknowledge both His existence and His justice. Do we also demand God step in when we revel in our independence when life is pleasurable? I think not. We squirm like toddlers in a car seat regarding God's existence until life starts to hurt and then we howl and pout for rescue. Why do we behave in such a contradictory manner? We're human and cannot possibly comprehend eternity, yet we demand God apply His justice now according to our liking. A little arrogant for created beings aren't we?
So basically omnipotent god gives you life knowing if you are already going to hell or not, he creates beings to face eternal damnation, sounds like a pretty sick fuck to me.
God's knowledge of our choices in our lifetime does not eliminate free will. His provision of salvation indicates love. More discussion tomorrow.
Last edited by Stingray24 (2008-08-02 19:41:50)
Pssst, there is no such thing as a god.
Just to let you people know.
Just to let you people know.
Psst, this is d&st. EE is over there. You must be lost....MGS3_GrayFox wrote:
Pssst, there is no such thing as a god.
Just to let you people know.
That's still not free will, except in an illusory sense. It's an illusion of choice when a divine being has initiated all that will happen.IG-Calibre wrote:
why? God knows everything, maybe we cannot see "everything" like God does and that is ultimately why we fail? it's a question of perspective or lack thereof?Vilham wrote:
If you believe in a Christian god, ie all knowing there is no such thing as free will. All knowing god and free will are not compatible. The two concepts are counter to each other.Stingray24 wrote:
Belief is optional and up to us to decide with the free will we are given by God. Death and suffering entered the world because of the choice allowed to Adam and Eve. Why did God allow free will? Because He wants a relationship with us. In order for there to be no suffering or pain on earth, it would be necessary eliminate choice.
So what to do with the injustice we see when our fellow humans bring on one another?
1. Blame God for creating us and giving us free will
2. Point the finger at those who chose to bring suffering on a fellow human being
... those are the choices.
We demand God step in and stop the suffering and pain we see here on earth before we will acknowledge both His existence and His justice. Do we also demand God step in when we revel in our independence when life is pleasurable? I think not. We squirm like toddlers in a car seat regarding God's existence until life starts to hurt and then we howl and pout for rescue. Why do we behave in such a contradictory manner? We're human and cannot possibly comprehend eternity, yet we demand God apply His justice now according to our liking. A little arrogant for created beings aren't we?
For example.... If I was omnipotent and omniscient, and I made my own universe, then I would create it knowing all that will occur. If I didn't want something to happen, I could easily keep it from happening. So, in effect, all that does happen is according to "God's plan", as the OP suggested. Free will is only how things appear to be because we are not omniscient ourselves.
That is... if there is a God and he's omniscient. If there is no God, then we do have free will.
What about if there is a God and he isn't omniscient?Turquoise wrote:
...Free will is only how things appear to be because we are not omniscient ourselves.
That is... if there is a God and he's omniscient. If there is no God, then we do have free will.
(btw, I neither believe in God (omniscient or otherwise) nor that we have free will)
Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2008-08-02 21:16:33)