BF2S Forums Do you believe this comment is racist?

I voted no. I already stated my opinion in the respective thread anyway, and wrote a partial agreement with the statement.

-kon

oug wrote:

It's not racist. It's just this common american belief that focuses on the person entirely, disregarding the societal aspect of life. In other words, success or failure are only dependent on the person's ambition and drive or lack thereof.
It's just that this time, this logic is focusing on the black community.

This is the correct answer.  It's called personal responsibility.  Anyone can do anything if they are intelligent/charismatic/clever/ambitious/devoted/etc. enough.  In the end, you only have yourself to blame for failure.  As oug said, it's being applied to blacks, and people (of all races) don't like that because it seems unfair.  But really it's just the unfortunate and difficult-to-face truth.

Braddock wrote:

lowing wrote:

nope, you do not have to prove shit, I made the comment and it is up to me to back it, so in addition to the Cosby links, I will offer up......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncle_Tom

Now, thw burdon of proof that this is in fact BULLSHIT, is on you, if you deny this.

By the way, please stow the generalization and absolute bullshit, No one in any forum can speak to such standards on any subject. All discussions are generally speaking so please do not use it as a defense that what is said is wrong because it does not include 100% of a subject in debate.

I checked out that link, it actually only gives two examples of it being used by anyone that could be considered a significant figure in the black community. Interestingly though one of the guys who used the term was T. Milton Street Junior. Milton Street Junior is an interesting character...

T. Milton Street, Sr. is an entrepreneur and former politician from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and the brother of former Philadelphia mayor John F. Street. Originally a street hot dog vendor, he rose to prominence as an activist challenging the city's vending and housing ordinances. He was elected to the 181st District of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives as a Democrat in 1978, and to the Pennsylvania State Senate from 1980 to 1984 as a Republican. He later returned to prominence during the 1990s through his many business ventures, including a local amphibious tour bus company and vending and consulting contracts with the city and Philadelphia International Airport.

An upwardly mobile, successful, black businessman...seems like the kind of guy you feel all black people should try to emulate lowing. Do you not find it ironic that he would use such a term lowing?

hold on.  i read about this guy online too.  he was brought up on fraud charges and called his opponent (another black man) a watermelon man.

http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_up … 59287.html
http://cbs3.com/topstories/Milton.Stree … 07610.html

i don't think this guy is a good example of an uncle Tom to be honest.  sounds more like a jackass to me.

here's a very interesting article on Uncle Toms. 

http://www.useless-knowledge.com/1234/n … le327.html

What Makes One An "Uncle Tom"?


By Timothy N. Stelly, Sr.
Nov. 22, 2005

One of the most damaging and divisive labels in the black community is that of being an “Uncle Tom.” Another word for “Tom” is Oreo, meaning that like the cookie of the same name, the person is black on the outside, “white” inside. An example is the so-called “brotha” in the group Thompson Twins, who once said in a Rolling Stone interview, “Me skin is black, mate, but me mind is white, man.”

Bryant Gumbel is considered a tom. But is it because he speaks proper English and dates white women exclusively? If so, why does this make him a “tom”? Doesn’t he have any redeeming qualities? The same is said of Montel Williams and Whoopi Goldberg. If these people are “Toms”, we need to ask “Why?”

There is a book titled “The Directory of Certified Uncle Toms.” Some of the prominent names mentioned in the book are Bill Cosby, Condoleezza Rice, Colin Powell, Star Jones, Clarence Thomas, Tiger Woods, Oprah Winfrey and a few surprises such as the Wayans Brothers, Ice Cube and Shaquille O’Neal. This caused me to ponder what constitutes being an Uncle Tom and more important, what message are we sending our children by applying this message to prominent blacks?

Oftentimes black kids are ridiculed for speaking proper English, getting good grades and participating in science projects and whatnot. Many of these kids are ostracized for “acting white.” (This is not a new phenomenon, as I endured this same sort of thing when I attended grade school and intermediate school in the 60’s and 70’s). Have we regressed so much that the things our forefathers fought for—academic achievement and economic empowerment—are now considered passé, or unimportant?

Take a prominent black person appears to be an apologist for a white politician who appears to be anti-black. Is this individual worse—that is, more of a Tom than say a drug dealer—who is poisoning members of the black community? What about gangbangers who shoot other blacks over “turf”, “colors” and girlies?

The contradictory mantra is “get paid”, but at what cost? Colin Powell is getting paid, but is considered a “Tom.” At the same time, 50 Cent and other rappers are considered icons, yet they consistently threaten to harm other brothas.


I’ll be the first to admit that blacks who represent negative images in the media as buffoons and who are nothing more than high-paid lickspittles should be ostracized. (See “Soul Plane,” “How High,” “I Got The Hook Up,” “Urban Menace”, etc.) The author of the directory, Richard Laurence, does just that. He is doing more than playing the dozens in print and not just dissin’ the black elite. This book seeks to define behavior that the author believes the black community would be wise to reject. While I agree with a lot of the names on the list, it is not because they are well to do or married to persons of a lighter hue.

The book calls out many of the black upper crust who refuse to come to the hood unless pandering for votes, a photo op, or selling a book or other merchandise. (I agree that these “pimps” are Toms). But many blacks listed in this directory contribute to causes that impact directly upon the lives of many ghetto denizens. So if their benevolence outweighs their “bad points”, why are they considered “Toms”?

One of the things that I think makes one an Uncle Tom is when they present media images that are demeaning to black people and show an aloofness about that behavior; claiming “I’m just getting paid!” (Red and Method Man come to mind, as does Tyler Perry whose “Medea” films are nothing more than a reincarnation of the minstrel show). I also consider it tomming when one articulates opinions that the overwhelming majority of blacks reject. (Ward Connerly, white America’s favorite Negro parrot comes to mind). Terri McMillan would fall into this category. Her message to sisters is “We don’t need men; we need to find comfort in each other,” which is blatant B.S. and in my book borders on promoting lesbianism.

While I know a lot of blacks who date whites—and many do because they are essentially running away from the ‘hood—interracial marriage in itself does not make one a Tom. There are plenty of black people married to whites who do mind-boggling and much appreciated works in the black community.

One black woman wrote, “(This list) makes it look like we praise ignorance poverty and apathy.” Vincent Thomas of Washington, D.C. wrote, “The American Directory of Certified Uncle Toms is a well documented, scholarly, and witty critique of the most stridently Eurocentric elements of the Black community. The book clearly distinguishes between "enlightened Black interests"( economic, political and creative self-determination) and the practices of Black Eurocentrists (undermining grassroots Black leadership, justifying the suppressive status quo, portraying our pathologies for financial gain, and minimal accountability to legitimate Black constituencies). Finally, we have a publication that takes on white liberalism, Black conservatism, pathological classism in our community, and an inordinate Zionist influence (the part where Ron Dellums was forced to have a family meeting because of a potential political backlash is particularly telling). While I may not agree with all entries, this book is essential in its value to Black people whether they like or not.”

The term Uncle Tom has usually been applied to subservient black men who did white people’s bidding, or who served whites loyally regardless of how badly he was treated. It is oftentimes a relationship between blacks and whites where the black person accepts the brutal and/or condescending manner in which white people treat him. The term is also applied to snitches.

The phrase comes from a character in Harriet Beecher Stowe’s 19th century novel, “Uncle Tom’s Cabin.” He was a “Negro” who put his master’s wishes and life before his own. Females fitting this description are sometimes called “Aunt Jemima” after the kerchief wearing picture on the front of the pancake box.

O/J. Simpson is a Tom. From day one he ran from the ‘hood as fast as his 4.3 speed could carry him. Michael Jackson is trying this damndest to be white and his actions are self-explanatory.


Editor of The New African, Louis Clayton Jones defines what he calls ‘Tthe Uncle Tom dilemma: “[It is] the dilemma faced by every relatively intelligent Negro who chooses a career in government or in a profession . . . in which one's living is made in the implementation and facilitation of the programs, policies, and practices of an economic, political, educational, criminal justice, and cultural model—the effects of which are the decimation of one's race. The dilemma is compounded when the relatively conscious Negro, who understands the dilemma, learns that his or her 'success,' in the view of the oppressed and the oppressor, is defined by the skill with which the Negro adapts to the oppressive system and masters its subtleties and peculiarities."

While several people in the directory fit that profile, the book boils down to being the opinion of two writers. Meanwhile, the issue merits considerable debate. For now it seems to be a matter of personal preference.

------------

About the author: Timothy Stelly is a 46-year old California native with a wide variety of interests-from fishing to politics, which have a lot in common: Both require you to deal with worms and most of your time is spent idling.

He is a former Democrat, believing that Party represents outdated ideas. He is officially registered as an Independent, choosing to keep his options open. Timothy is also the author of more than 80 screenplays and novels, two of which have been "published": "Tempest In The Stone" and "The Malice Of Cain", both available through PublishAmerica. He defines his writing style as "Hip-hop fiction; a cross between Richard Pryor and Richard Wright."

His UK columns is written in a hard-edged style, but he is not yet a curmudgeon or a conservative. (Is that redundant?) After all, one of his favorite movies is "The Adventures of Milo and Otis."

Last edited by CaptainSpaulding71 (2008-06-24 13:07:28)

Not racist.  And Lowing is correct.  Black people who are in the "victim/poor/ghetto" category, consider successful blacks as "Uncle Toms."  Is this a surprise to you Cam?  I don't like Lowing either, but this thread is pretty rude and should have been closed because you're attacking him directly.  At least a decent conversation has come of it.



Worded even better:

fadedsteve wrote:

No not racist at all!

I thought it was pretty insightful and accurate as to the climate surrounding the black community.  Black people just dont want to be thought of as "too white" whatever that means.  They feel an obligation to assert their "blackness" sometimes to the detriment of their lives as well as their families.  I personally dont get it. . . . . as Rodney King says, "Cant we all just get along?"

+1

Black Culture FTL.

Last edited by IRONCHEF (2008-06-24 13:15:55)

Braddock wrote:

I'm guessing Obama is an "Uncle Tom" then, or does it not count if you get the top job in the land?

I've heard him referred to as a "halfrican", which is actually quite funny.

Oh, I've heard him called Uncle Tom plenty.  BUt going to church and yappin' fromt he pulpit, and reminding everyone his dad left him and his mom raised him, and some other "cool" ghetto-ness...and of course the endorsement of the oprah goddess has really diminished his uncle tomliness.

IRONCHEF wrote:

Not racist.  And Lowing is correct.  Black people who are in the "victim/poor/ghetto" category, consider successful blacks as "Uncle Toms."  Is this a surprise to you Cam?  I don't like Lowing either, but this thread is pretty rude and should have been closed because you're attacking him directly.  At least a decent conversation has come of it.



Worded even better:

fadedsteve wrote:

No not racist at all!

I thought it was pretty insightful and accurate as to the climate surrounding the black community.  Black people just dont want to be thought of as "too white" whatever that means.  They feel an obligation to assert their "blackness" sometimes to the detriment of their lives as well as their families.  I personally dont get it. . . . . as Rodney King says, "Cant we all just get along?"

+1

Black Culture FTL.

But we need to probe deeper than that. What I don't understand is how the icons of black culture can go from the likes of Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Otis Redding, Sidney Poitier, Martin Luther King and Muhammed Ali in the past to the likes of 50cent, Mike Tyson and Ol' Dirty Bastard in the present. To go from talented, charismatic, intelligent and well spoken members of society to mumbling, drug addicted, rapists in just one generation is pretty bizarre. One popular argument from the hip-hop camp is that the predominantly white-run media actively promote only the negative side of hip-hop culture and that if you look deeper there is actually a wealth of cultural value...and if you look at the lyrics of someone like Gil Scott Heron's work you can see that this might actually be true. If it is in fact the case that the media is predisposed to promoting only negative images of African Americans then it is the 50cent's of this world that are the real "Uncle Toms".

PS: Ha ha, during my online searching I found a petition for you all to sign!

racists toward blacks or whites ?

Here's another interesting article on Uncle Toms.  It talks about one of my favorite political writers (a black conservative economist) Thomas Sowell.  also, the article is written by a black man who i also connect with on his views.

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.a … B026169168

Revenge of the "Uncle Toms"   
By Larry Elder
FrontPageMagazine.com | Monday, January 08, 2001

SOMEDAY, many of their critics will apologize.

Who am I talking about? Two economists, who happen to be black, Thomas Sowell and Walter Williams.

For over 30 years, Thomas Sowell, currently with the Hoover Institution, and Walter Williams, chairman of the economics department at George Mason University, led the charge against the "victicrat" mindset. Through decades of weekly columns, books, speeches and lectures before often-hostile crowds, they long argued that racism cannot be blamed for poverty, crime, illegitimacy, and under-performing schools.

Over 20 years ago, Sowell appeared on William F. Buckley Jr.'s PBS show, "Firing Line," and calmly dismantled the basis for affirmative action, arguing it immoral, divisive, and unconstitutional.

In his 1989 book, South Africa's War Against Capitalism, Williams noted that white racists under South Africa's apartheid used minimum wage laws to suppress black employment. Both men demonstrated with -- get this -- facts, data, studies, experience, and personal observation that, no, the black middle class did not spring from affirmative action, urban renewal programs, enterprise zones, welfare benefits or set-aside programs. Racism, they point out persuasively, is bad for capitalism.

In Thomas Sowell's masterful trilogy, Race and Culture, Migrations and Culture and Conquests and Cultures, Sowell traveled around the world seeking an answer to this question: Why do some groups survive and thrive under the most adverse conditions while others disappear? His answer? People who possess cultural capital -- a reverence for education, strength in family, and self-reliance -- endure.

Their reward? Former NAACP President Benjamin Hooks called people like Sowell and Williams "a new breed of Uncle Tom ... some of the biggest liars the world ever saw." Liars? For saying that the welfare state has done more to destabilize the black family than Jim Crow laws ever did?

Oreo. Uncle Tom. Boot-licking Uncle Tom. Straight-up Uncle Tom. Judas. Boy. Bug-eyed. Foot-shuffling. Sugarcane Negro. Handkerchief head. Trojan Horse. Anti-black. Pro-white. Remus. Sambo. Sambo-Tom. The Anti-Christ. Clarence Thomas supporter. Sniveling weasel. Evil. A-s-kisser. Coconut. Wannabe white. Nickering nabob of negativity. This catalog of names I've been called comes from my new book, The Ten Things You Can't Say in America. Can you imagine the hate mail, including death threats, bombarding Sowell's and Williams' mailboxes for the last 30 years?

Black conservatives, goes the attack, take their marching orders and receive funds from the "White Racist Power Structure." Yet, according to Peter Noel of the "Village Voice," Jesse Jackson's Wall Street contributors forced Jackson to tone down his rhetoric (he called President-elect Bush "illegitimate") and put in a call to Bush!

Similarly, a few years ago, the NAACP faced a financial crisis. Declining membership and a sex-discrimination scandal by then-President Ben Chavis made headlines. One of the NAACP's principal donors, the Ford Foundation, withheld its $500,000 contribution until the organization cleaned up its act. So who's singing and who's dancing?

A few years ago, Rev. Jesse Jackson and I appeared on television to discuss whether blacks, at last, possess full civil rights. Jackson spoke about the wealth gap between blacks and whites, the lack of "access to capital." Problems remain, I said, but blacks now enjoy full "civil rights." Wealth, while desirable, is not something guaranteed by the Constitution. Rev. Jackson responded, "Mr. Elder identifies with white males." Typical. Dodge the merits of the argument and malign your opponent through the practiced, if unfair, use of the "if-you're-black-and-don't-think-of-yourself-as-a-victim-you- must-be-a-self-loathing-Uncle-Tom" attack.

Virtually every big city newspaper has the obligatory Angry Black Writer sounding the same themes: The country screws blacks; banks refuse to lend them money; cops routinely brutalize blacks; the SAT is culturally biased; racist insurance companies practice red-lining. Addressing these issues, Sowell and Williams expose the truth, a truth far less sinister than the race-hustlers claim.

The verdict is in. We now see the damage done by LBJ's War on Poverty, during which time the black illegitimacy rate grew from 25 percent to today's nearly 70 percent. Evidence shows the existence of a growing, thriving, black middle class well before the advent of affirmative action. Nor does history support the hysterical, emotional view that affirmative action accelerated the black middle class growth.

Sowell and Williams urge blacks to reject welfare in favor of self-help -- breaking the monopoly of public education, privatization of Social Security, and the adherence to responsible moral, personal, and sexual behavior. So who's the Uncle Tom? Those proposing the same old "solutions," or those, like Sowell and Williams, recommending real change?

Will Sowell and Williams get their apology? Hey, many pundits, present company included, felt Vice President Al Gore unlikely to use the "C" (concession) word in his speech. He did. So maybe, just maybe, we can begin a healthy, personal attack-free debate about what's right, just, and proper in America. An apology to Sowell and Williams would be an excellent start.

OK, if not an apology, how about a well-deserved round of applause?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Larry Elder is the author of the newly-released Showdown. Larry also wrote The Ten Things You Can’t Say in America. He is a libertarian talk show host, on the air from 3-7 pm Pacific time, on KABC Talkradio in Los Angeles. For more information, visit LarryElder.com.

Last edited by CaptainSpaulding71 (2008-06-24 14:14:39)

lowing wrote:

"It is the attitude that if you succeed, and actually build a life for yourself, you are an Uncle Tom, who sold out to the white man......It is the hero worship of hoodlums and gang bangers and hip hop killa cop rap artists, instead of successful roll models, like black astronauts, doctors, judges, cops, firemen, entrapenures...etc...........All of these people sold out to whitey in their eyes and are shunned.... It is better to be victim of the white man's oppression so you have an excuse to be a failure, rather than get off your ass and take responsibility for yourself........Just like all of those "Uncle Tom's""

Why is that?

I'd like to go on record as saying I do not agree with affirmative action by the way. I also don't see the legacy of America's apartheid past as an excuse for the social problems of today, merely a contributing factor. I feel that in generations to come more and more African American communities will be dragged into the upwardly mobile demographic; social change on a large scale such as this is never quick. Cultural issues such as hip-hop may or may not be a long term factor (I mean 30 years ago there were truly great, talented Black musical heroes so who knows what we'll have 20 years from now). As for the 'preachers' and 'activists' with their 'Uncle Tom' agenda...well the few can only keep the many back for so long. Common sense and progression will prevail in the end.

40 years ago they had to sit at the back of the bus, by Christmas of this year they may have a representative in the White House. I think African Americans aren't doing as bad everyone tries to make out. In the thread about serial killers the common argument was that most serial killers are white because there are more whites in American society, well there are more black criminals because there are more poor black people and more poor black communities than white ones. In a society that pays attention to social issues and has a social conscience these issues should be addressed in time.

Thorax wrote:

Braddock wrote:

40 years ago they had to sit at the back of the bus, by Christmas of this year they may have a representative in the White House. I think African Americans aren't doing as bad everyone tries to make out. In the thread about serial killers the common argument was that most serial killers are white because there are more whites in American society, well there are more black criminals because there are more poor black people and more poor black communities than white ones. In a society that pays attention to social issues and has a social conscience these issues should be addressed in time.

I'm sorry but I figure I am just as capable of robbing a liquor store as a black guy and my family never had to sit at the back of any bus.

Using this bullshit "40 years ago we had to suffer through ____" argument is a bunch of non-sense.  Perhaps if they weren't so worried about becoming fathers and mothers in the eighth grade and buying the latest Sean Jean designer clothes and rap albums and payed more attention in school, they wouldn't have so many problems now. 

Either way, they still aren't as bad as native americans.

I was almost going to get annoyed until I read the rest of your post and realised you were only being sarcastic.